StuntGranny®
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Not Actually a Granny
Posts: 16,099
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Post by StuntGranny® on Mar 10, 2017 16:13:18 GMT -5
I don't know. If Shawn was let go in 95/96, to me there was no big loss. Someone like Owen Hart was more charismatic and could wrestle just as well if not better. He was totally replaceable in my opinion. I am so happy to see someone else share this opinion. I am not about to say that Shawn Michaels wasn't extremely talented/an amazing wrestler, but I absolutely think he would've easily been replaceable. It's not like he was a Steve Austin, Hogan, Rock, etc. Much like his buddy Diesel, he didn't exactly draw like crazy as champion. There were guys out there that could've filled his shoes if Vince would've shown some guts and fired him. Let's not forget the fact that he and his shit friends did a lot to hurt wrestling and did a lot to hurt careers of certain wrestlers.
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Post by Stu on Mar 10, 2017 16:15:29 GMT -5
One of the few bright spots of Roman Reigns' forced push is that we didn't have Vince on commentary publically fellating him. *Roman does his howl Vince: What an animal! Who doesn't want to be his baby girl?!?!?!
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TGM
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,073
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Post by TGM on Mar 10, 2017 16:33:41 GMT -5
I agree but the WWF wouldn't have collapsed overnight had Shawn left, they had plenty to fall back on. Shawn wouldn't be around one year later and they did better business than they ever had since the Hulk Hogan days. Despite Shawn's dickhead stories in 97 til WM14, he held WWF down in a tough period and delivered. Also ratings/popularity resurgence actually started shortly after Survivors 97 with him/DX at the top And continued (and improved) long after he'd left.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Mar 10, 2017 18:27:05 GMT -5
I don't know. If Shawn was let go in 95/96, to me there was no big loss. Someone like Owen Hart was more charismatic and could wrestle just as well if not better. He was totally replaceable in my opinion. I am so happy to see someone else share this opinion. I am not about to say that Shawn Michaels wasn't extremely talented/an amazing wrestler, but I absolutely think he would've easily been replaceable. It's not like he was a Steve Austin, Hogan, Rock, etc. Much like his buddy Diesel, he didn't exactly draw like crazy as champion. There were guys out there that could've filled his shoes if Vince would've shown some guts and fired him. Let's not forget the fact that he and his shit friends did a lot to hurt wrestling and did a lot to hurt careers of certain wrestlers. Glad someone sees it that way as well. The way I see it is that he did nothing of note between the Wrestlemania 10 ladder match until the next one 18 months later. His next big match was Wrestlemania 12. Imagine an iron man match featuring the brothers Hart instead. Yes he won a manufactured 1st at Rumble 95 but he was not setting the world alight in between. Bret had better matches with his buddy Diesel that year. All the lost smiles, alleged attacks by marines, hissy fits with Vader etc just struck me of a whining jobsworth. Heck, Vince fired Warrior for less shit than Shawn was pulling, and Warrior was legitimately the much bigger draw. The legend of Shawn Michaels is rightly justified in his Renaissance from 2002, but prior to that, he was a nuisance. If they got rid between 94 and 96, nothing of value would have been lost. He was a mid-carder at worst and a jobber to the stars at best. And he refused to wrestle for parts of any year between 94 and 97, 96 being the exception.
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Post by benstudd on Mar 10, 2017 22:22:47 GMT -5
The whole Savage thing wasn't about Steph, it really was about Vince, Savage and Shawn having a three-way. When Macho left for WCW, Vince had his heart broken. And he was so afraid that HBK would do the same that he did everything he wanted.
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Post by abjordans on Mar 10, 2017 22:28:03 GMT -5
Afraid he wouldn't visit the bearskin rug.
Just kidding, HBK is the GOAT and I thank Vince everyday for WWE.
But, for real, I think they used to do it.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Mar 10, 2017 22:31:25 GMT -5
Nothing but speculation but it's hard to believe anything but Vince thought Shawn was really cool and wanted Shawn to think Vince was cool. I always imagine Vince and Shawn being like George Costanza and Tony the Mimbo.
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mizerable
Fry's dog Seymour
You're the lowest on the totem pole here, Alva. The lowest.
Posts: 23,475
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Post by mizerable on Mar 11, 2017 0:46:21 GMT -5
I don't know. If Shawn was let go in 95/96, to me there was no big loss. Someone like Owen Hart was more charismatic and could wrestle just as well if not better. He was totally replaceable in my opinion. Owen Hart more charismatic than Shawn? I guess depending on what you're looking at, but I vehemently disagree in just about every way. Owen was good in his role and his charisma was channeled best for his character. Remove the character and he had more difficulty adapting, hence why I never found him slightly appealing as a babyface. Shawn on the other hand could get you to love him or hate him, and I'm talking in a general sense...not you specifically. Honestly, Owen lost all his momentum once his heat was shifted to Backlund. At that point, I couldn't see him being a top guy, that's just how good 1994 was, and I do agree that Owen was MVP that year.
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J. Hova
Don Corleone
Emotionally exhausted and morally bankrupt
Posts: 2,001
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Post by J. Hova on Mar 11, 2017 1:06:40 GMT -5
Vince was scared of Shawn leaving for WCW, simple as that. I think he was just trying to stop the bleeding and thought that HBK was the face of the new generation. I would argue he was partially right, but he was more the transitional guy along with Bret from the 80s to the New Generation to the Attitude Era.
I do think Vince did get sick of Shawn's shit and the back injury was an excuse to send him home and keep him under contract. Once HBK got right, he was brought back. I don't deny his back injury was serious, but I think if HBK wasn't a pill head, he'd have been back by 99 or 2000. I might be wrong with the timeframe, but I believe he was still pilled up when WCW was purchased and didn't clean up his act until late 2001.
I'd also argue that HBK was better after he was brought back and is almost like the payback for the crap he did in 95-98. I really do think the pinnacle of wrestling as far as in ring post 2000 was about 2004-06 with HBK, Angle, Benoit, Jericho, Eddie, Benjamin, etc.
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Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Mar 11, 2017 2:21:17 GMT -5
Seems like Shawn convinced Vince that he needed him. I mean Shawn is considered one of the most talented performers ever by everyone... He also wasn't a draw in his first run. The WWF hit some all time low business with Shawn on top.
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andrew8798
FANatic
on 24/7 this month
Posts: 106,084
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Post by andrew8798 on Mar 11, 2017 2:27:12 GMT -5
I mean Shawn is considered one of the most talented performers ever by everyone... He also wasn't a draw in his first run. The WWF hit some all time low business with Shawn on top. No was a draw during that period
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Mar 11, 2017 2:29:07 GMT -5
Vince was scared of Shawn leaving for WCW, simple as that. I think he was just trying to stop the bleeding and thought that HBK was the face of the new generation. I would argue he was partially right, but he was more the transitional guy along with Bret from the 80s to the New Generation to the Attitude Era. I do think Vince did get sick of Shawn's shit and the back injury was an excuse to send him home and keep him under contract. Once HBK got right, he was brought back. I don't deny his back injury was serious, but I think if HBK wasn't a pill head, he'd have been back by 99 or 2000. I might be wrong with the timeframe, but I believe he was still pilled up when WCW was purchased and didn't clean up his act until late 2001. I'd also argue that HBK was better after he was brought back and is almost like the payback for the crap he did in 95-98. I really do think the pinnacle of wrestling as far as in ring post 2000 was about 2004-06 with HBK, Angle, Benoit, Jericho, Eddie, Benjamin, etc. I firmly believe his career ending injury was his pill addiction.
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Post by chronocross on Mar 11, 2017 7:20:24 GMT -5
Despite Shawn's dickhead stories in 97 til WM14, he held WWF down in a tough period and delivered. Also ratings/popularity resurgence actually started shortly after Survivors 97 with him/DX at the top And continued (and improved) long after he'd left. Also when WWF made headlines in early 98 it was Austin and Tyson all over the media coverage, HBK as WWF champ was the third wheel in that one.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2017 8:27:20 GMT -5
They should have never made him Doink...
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Post by sfvega on Mar 11, 2017 9:38:01 GMT -5
Nothing but speculation but it's hard to believe anything but Vince thought Shawn was really cool and wanted Shawn to think Vince was cool. Honestly, I think that's entirely it. Vince has a whole Foxcatcher thing going on, where he gravitates to guys that represent what he wishes he could be, whatever that is...
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
Posts: 5,725
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Post by nisidhe on Mar 11, 2017 13:20:17 GMT -5
Michaels was _not_ the biggest draw in WWE during the years largely attributed to his being "the top draw." Bret Hart was, _in spite of_ all WWE's efforts to sell Michaels as the next big thing. It was largely on Bret Hart's efforts that WWE continued to be profitable throughout 1995 and into 1996. WWE lost money after Michaels got the title at Wrestlemania XII and Hart sat out of WWE until Survivor Series that year. That absence, I feel, was likely intended in part to serve as Hart's evidence that Michaels wasn't working as top face.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
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Post by The Ichi on Mar 11, 2017 15:45:49 GMT -5
Thing is I think if he hadn't hurt his back, once Stone Cold gained huge popularity in 98 Vince would have stopped taking his shit. He only got away with before by being the biggest fish in a tiny pond.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Mar 11, 2017 15:49:19 GMT -5
Thing is I think if he hadn't hurt his back, once Stone Cold gained huge popularity in 98 Vince would have stopped taking his shit. He only got away with before by being the biggest fish in a tiny pond. f*** yeah. I think that after Austin's rise he got tired of him. Also the fact that after the wm match, Tyson put an Austin shirt on top of Shawn was a direct shot and burial ordered by Vince
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Mar 11, 2017 18:00:02 GMT -5
Shawn was intimidating. Remember how much he frightened Marty Jannetty that Marty jumped through a barber shop window to get away from Shawn in an act of cowardice.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Mar 11, 2017 18:33:14 GMT -5
I don't know. If Shawn was let go in 95/96, to me there was no big loss. Someone like Owen Hart was more charismatic and could wrestle just as well if not better. He was totally replaceable in my opinion. Owen Hart more charismatic than Shawn? I guess depending on what you're looking at, but I vehemently disagree in just about every way. Owen was good in his role and his charisma was channeled best for his character. Remove the character and he had more difficulty adapting, hence why I never found him slightly appealing as a babyface. Shawn on the other hand could get you to love him or hate him, and I'm talking in a general sense...not you specifically. Honestly, Owen lost all his momentum once his heat was shifted to Backlund. At that point, I couldn't see him being a top guy, that's just how good 1994 was, and I do agree that Owen was MVP that year. I used Owen Hart just as an example of someone with the same size and style of wrestling as Shawn Michaels at the time. Owen was far more notorious in 94 and 95 than Michaels. Let's remember that Owen Hart was King of the Ring and main-eventing Summerslam 94 while Shawn was cornerman to Diesel on the same night. Michaels had the odd big match at the time, and rightly stole the show, but he was pulling bullshit more often than not (marines etc) whereas Owen Hart or even Bret Hart was delivering quality on a weekly basis. I would take consistency over periodic flashes of brilliance and just lightened the load by replacing Shawn, especially with the competition blowing me out the water. A better alternative to Shawn was Randy Savage on the other show - a charismatic high flyer capable of putting in a great match - consistently and not just with his pals. Shawn was no where near the star revisionist Wwe history puts him as in the 90s. Lex Luger had more star power than Shawn when both were in the same company.
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