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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Apr 21, 2017 8:18:57 GMT -5
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Apr 25, 2017 21:46:09 GMT -5
Boy, that would have been something
In a world where evrything went perfect.
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Post by corndog on May 5, 2017 18:38:18 GMT -5
The only different would be there wouldn't have that slump post strike pre Home run chase. The popularity of the game was never going to reach NFL levels. The NBA and MLB is a battle for #2. ESPN morning radio like first and last would make you think MLB or the NHL don't exist, the only time I've heard anybody on that show talk about baseball was when A-Rod was having his last at bats and when the Cubs won. The playoff itself hardly anything until it was over with and they still manage to find ways to get NBA into that situation. It's nuts and sucks that it all that is on when I drive to work for sports. I really respect your opinion, but it's no race. NBA is running away with the #2 spot and is going to be competing soon for #1 if you trust projections. Younger demos watch NBA more than the NFL. The NBA will never be #1, because regular season basketball is garbage. The only thing keeping the NBA above MLB, and even the NHL is national television ratings, that is literally it. MLB has a bigger demographic and is much more popular with the female audience, attendance murders basketball and at the regional level teams draw much higher ratings. As far as the younger demos, basketball has been popular with younger demos for a long time, but most kids grow out of watching NBA and into football. Baseball, while a kids game, and football are more appreciated by adults, they are more of strategic game versus the NBA, while it does involve coaching is more about raw talent. Personally, I don't think anything is catching up to the NFL in the US for a very long time barring a major disaster, although Goodell is trying his hardest. The NBA is much closer to MLB/NHL in terms of popularity than the NFL. Couple that with the fact NHL fans are much more loyal and hardcore(they travel and attend more games. Both MLB/NHL are in an upturn of popularity and revenue, while NBA fans are turned off by live events because there is a chance they might not see the star players and regular season NBA is nearly meaningless with little excitement. If there is a sport that could truly rise in popularity and even someday overtake the NFL in the US, it's soccer, but it will be a very long time before that happens.
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Post by Limity (BLM) on May 5, 2017 19:43:54 GMT -5
I really respect your opinion, but it's no race. NBA is running away with the #2 spot and is going to be competing soon for #1 if you trust projections. Younger demos watch NBA more than the NFL. The NBA will never be #1, because regular season basketball is garbage. The only thing keeping the NBA above MLB, and even the NHL is national television ratings, that is literally it. MLB has a bigger demographic and is much more popular with the female audience, attendance murders basketball and at the regional level teams draw much higher ratings. As far as the younger demos, basketball has been popular with younger demos for a long time, but most kids grow out of watching NBA and into football. Baseball, while a kids game, and football are more appreciated by adults, they are more of strategic game versus the NBA, while it does involve coaching is more about raw talent. Personally, I don't think anything is catching up to the NFL in the US for a very long time barring a major disaster, although Goodell is trying his hardest. The NBA is much closer to MLB/NHL in terms of popularity than the NFL. Couple that with the fact NHL fans are much more loyal and hardcore(they travel and attend more games. Both MLB/NHL are in an upturn of popularity and revenue, while NBA fans are turned off by live events because there is a chance they might not see the star players and regular season NBA is nearly meaningless with little excitement. If there is a sport that could truly rise in popularity and even someday overtake the NFL in the US, it's soccer, but it will be a very long time before that happens. I have no knowledge whatsoever of basketball and the NBA, so I'm curious what you mean that regular season NBA is garbage?
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Post by corndog on May 5, 2017 20:04:25 GMT -5
The NBA will never be #1, because regular season basketball is garbage. The only thing keeping the NBA above MLB, and even the NHL is national television ratings, that is literally it. MLB has a bigger demographic and is much more popular with the female audience, attendance murders basketball and at the regional level teams draw much higher ratings. As far as the younger demos, basketball has been popular with younger demos for a long time, but most kids grow out of watching NBA and into football. Baseball, while a kids game, and football are more appreciated by adults, they are more of strategic game versus the NBA, while it does involve coaching is more about raw talent. Personally, I don't think anything is catching up to the NFL in the US for a very long time barring a major disaster, although Goodell is trying his hardest. The NBA is much closer to MLB/NHL in terms of popularity than the NFL. Couple that with the fact NHL fans are much more loyal and hardcore(they travel and attend more games. Both MLB/NHL are in an upturn of popularity and revenue, while NBA fans are turned off by live events because there is a chance they might not see the star players and regular season NBA is nearly meaningless with little excitement. If there is a sport that could truly rise in popularity and even someday overtake the NFL in the US, it's soccer, but it will be a very long time before that happens. I have no knowledge whatsoever of basketball and the NBA, so I'm curious what you mean that regular season NBA is garbage? Players and teams don't take it very seriously. Half of the league makes the playoffs, so there isn't a big fight to get in like with the NFL and MLB. Cleveland benched their starters the last week of the season when they had a chance to get the #1 seed, because it matters that little to them. Superstars regularly take time off during the regular season. The style of play is equivalent to street ball and many players are not very physical and often play just enough defense to make it appear they are putting in half an effort, it's basically glorified practice to obtain stats and stay sharp.
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sfvega
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Post by sfvega on May 6, 2017 13:15:33 GMT -5
I really respect your opinion, but it's no race. NBA is running away with the #2 spot and is going to be competing soon for #1 if you trust projections. Younger demos watch NBA more than the NFL. The NBA will never be #1, because regular season basketball is garbage. The only thing keeping the NBA above MLB, and even the NHL is national television ratings, that is literally it. MLB has a bigger demographic and is much more popular with the female audience, attendance murders basketball and at the regional level teams draw much higher ratings. As far as the younger demos, basketball has been popular with younger demos for a long time, but most kids grow out of watching NBA and into football. Baseball, while a kids game, and football are more appreciated by adults, they are more of strategic game versus the NBA, while it does involve coaching is more about raw talent. Personally, I don't think anything is catching up to the NFL in the US for a very long time barring a major disaster, although Goodell is trying his hardest. The NBA is much closer to MLB/NHL in terms of popularity than the NFL. Couple that with the fact NHL fans are much more loyal and hardcore(they travel and attend more games. Both MLB/NHL are in an upturn of popularity and revenue, while NBA fans are turned off by live events because there is a chance they might not see the star players and regular season NBA is nearly meaningless with little excitement. If there is a sport that could truly rise in popularity and even someday overtake the NFL in the US, it's soccer, but it will be a very long time before that happens. The NBA just set a new attendance mark, as well as all time highs again in social media and retail. Their franchise values continue to go way up as well. It's very hard to say that NBA fans are turned off by live events when they keep trending up. A lot of this just seems to be you not liking the NBA product. Which is completely fine. But the average MLB fan is 53 and trending older as time goes on. The average NBA fan has remained stable at 37 and they've been able to capture the young audience in a way that other leagues, MLB especially, simply cannot. It's easy to see that they are trending up as already the #2 sport in America, while the NFL is finally seeing some fall-off as the runaway train at #1. Nothing is going to change anytime soon, but if anybody is ever going to catch them, it's the NBA. American soccer, while also trending up heavily, has so much further to go. European soccer in America is closer, but it's hard to quantify in something that somewhat rarely gets played over here. It always does well, but it's kind of a different dynamic. I'm a HUGE NHL fan, and we are all quite hardcore. But at the same time, I would not at all describe what is happening with them as an upturn in popularity. They still haven't recovered from several work stoppages, and is nowhere near as popular or at the forefront as it was in the 90's. It's sad, because it is such a great sport. It is becoming more and more a niche sport, but because their fans are so dedicated, they should remain stable financially going forward.
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Post by corndog on May 6, 2017 22:47:51 GMT -5
The NBA will never be #1, because regular season basketball is garbage. The only thing keeping the NBA above MLB, and even the NHL is national television ratings, that is literally it. MLB has a bigger demographic and is much more popular with the female audience, attendance murders basketball and at the regional level teams draw much higher ratings. As far as the younger demos, basketball has been popular with younger demos for a long time, but most kids grow out of watching NBA and into football. Baseball, while a kids game, and football are more appreciated by adults, they are more of strategic game versus the NBA, while it does involve coaching is more about raw talent. Personally, I don't think anything is catching up to the NFL in the US for a very long time barring a major disaster, although Goodell is trying his hardest. The NBA is much closer to MLB/NHL in terms of popularity than the NFL. Couple that with the fact NHL fans are much more loyal and hardcore(they travel and attend more games. Both MLB/NHL are in an upturn of popularity and revenue, while NBA fans are turned off by live events because there is a chance they might not see the star players and regular season NBA is nearly meaningless with little excitement. If there is a sport that could truly rise in popularity and even someday overtake the NFL in the US, it's soccer, but it will be a very long time before that happens. The NBA just set a new attendance mark, as well as all time highs again in social media and retail. Their franchise values continue to go way up as well. It's very hard to say that NBA fans are turned off by live events when they keep trending up. A lot of this just seems to be you not liking the NBA product. Which is completely fine. But the average MLB fan is 53 and trending older as time goes on. The average NBA fan has remained stable at 37 and they've been able to capture the young audience in a way that other leagues, MLB especially, simply cannot. It's easy to see that they are trending up as already the #2 sport in America, while the NFL is finally seeing some fall-off as the runaway train at #1. Nothing is going to change anytime soon, but if anybody is ever going to catch them, it's the NBA. American soccer, while also trending up heavily, has so much further to go. European soccer in America is closer, but it's hard to quantify in something that somewhat rarely gets played over here. It always does well, but it's kind of a different dynamic. I'm a HUGE NHL fan, and we are all quite hardcore. But at the same time, I would not at all describe what is happening with them as an upturn in popularity. They still haven't recovered from several work stoppages, and is nowhere near as popular or at the forefront as it was in the 90's. It's sad, because it is such a great sport. It is becoming more and more a niche sport, but because their fans are so dedicated, they should remain stable financially going forward. Social media doesn't sell me on anything(especially since a lot of it is negative attention for the NBA), merchandise moves for NBA because it is fashionable, the shoes especially. Doesn't mean people care about the game that much, they just want cool shoes and a top stars jersey. NBA ratings dropped 15% this season and is killing ESPN. NBA’s RSN ratings down 15 percent this seasonMLB climbed 1% on a national level during the regular season, nothing massive but not a 15% drop. Here Are The 2016 MLB Prime Time Television Ratings For Each TeamAt a regional level MLB draws very good ratings, something NBA doesn't do outside of a few major markets with successful teams and top stars. Local Ratings Show MLB Ruled Prime Time Programming In 2015 Which is why regional televisions is worth so much in baseball. The St. Louis Cardinals just signed a $1 billion tv contract. If the Lakers or Knicks were any good, maybe they could get that kind of money, and remember St. Louis is not even close to those markets.
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sfvega
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Post by sfvega on May 6, 2017 23:26:53 GMT -5
The NBA just set a new attendance mark, as well as all time highs again in social media and retail. Their franchise values continue to go way up as well. It's very hard to say that NBA fans are turned off by live events when they keep trending up. A lot of this just seems to be you not liking the NBA product. Which is completely fine. But the average MLB fan is 53 and trending older as time goes on. The average NBA fan has remained stable at 37 and they've been able to capture the young audience in a way that other leagues, MLB especially, simply cannot. It's easy to see that they are trending up as already the #2 sport in America, while the NFL is finally seeing some fall-off as the runaway train at #1. Nothing is going to change anytime soon, but if anybody is ever going to catch them, it's the NBA. American soccer, while also trending up heavily, has so much further to go. European soccer in America is closer, but it's hard to quantify in something that somewhat rarely gets played over here. It always does well, but it's kind of a different dynamic. I'm a HUGE NHL fan, and we are all quite hardcore. But at the same time, I would not at all describe what is happening with them as an upturn in popularity. They still haven't recovered from several work stoppages, and is nowhere near as popular or at the forefront as it was in the 90's. It's sad, because it is such a great sport. It is becoming more and more a niche sport, but because their fans are so dedicated, they should remain stable financially going forward. Social media doesn't sell me on anything(especially since a lot of it is negative attention for the NBA), merchandise moves for NBA because it is fashionable, the shoes especially. Doesn't mean people care about the game that much, they just want cool shoes and a top stars jersey. NBA ratings dropped 15% this season and is killing ESPN. NBA’s RSN ratings down 15 percent this seasonMLB climbed 1% on a national level during the regular season, nothing massive but not a 15% drop. Here Are The 2016 MLB Prime Time Television Ratings For Each TeamAt a regional level MLB draws very good ratings, something NBA doesn't do outside of a few major markets with successful teams and top stars. Local Ratings Show MLB Ruled Prime Time Programming In 2015 Which is why regional televisions is worth so much in baseball. The St. Louis Cardinals just signed a $1 billion tv contract. If the Lakers or Knicks were any good, maybe they could get that kind of money, and remember St. Louis is not even close to those markets. Wow. Like there's no negative social media for the NFL? Retail for the NBA means NBA products, like jerseys and hats. Shoes are not an NBA product. Jerseys being fashionable is a good thing. Nobody really cares about the NBA, they just to watch the playoffs and talk about it on social media and set attendance record the past couple seasons and buy jerseys. That seems to come off as caring.... Everything about the NBA with you has a negative slant. The NBA's prime time ratings were down 6% from last year and even with 14-15. They are not killing ESPN. LOL. The weekend games destroy baseball in ratings. Baseball does well at the local level. I'm in the St. Louis market. It's not the biggest market, but it may be top 2 or 3, all things considered. There is no football or basketball team, and the Cardinals are far and away the biggest deal in the city regardless of who comes or goes. It's the definition of a baseball town. In terms of who brings in money, the Blues (and Rams before that) may as well not exist. It's not a very good argument to say essentially "And that's only St. Louis." because the Cardinals have always made money hand over fist. They're 2nd in attendance, and 7th in merch, almost comparable to the NY teams and San Fran, two quite larger markets. So yes, in terms of making money, they ARE quite close...
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Post by corndog on May 7, 2017 0:34:26 GMT -5
Social media doesn't sell me on anything(especially since a lot of it is negative attention for the NBA), merchandise moves for NBA because it is fashionable, the shoes especially. Doesn't mean people care about the game that much, they just want cool shoes and a top stars jersey. NBA ratings dropped 15% this season and is killing ESPN. NBA’s RSN ratings down 15 percent this seasonMLB climbed 1% on a national level during the regular season, nothing massive but not a 15% drop. Here Are The 2016 MLB Prime Time Television Ratings For Each TeamAt a regional level MLB draws very good ratings, something NBA doesn't do outside of a few major markets with successful teams and top stars. Local Ratings Show MLB Ruled Prime Time Programming In 2015 Which is why regional televisions is worth so much in baseball. The St. Louis Cardinals just signed a $1 billion tv contract. If the Lakers or Knicks were any good, maybe they could get that kind of money, and remember St. Louis is not even close to those markets. Wow. Like there's no negative social media for the NFL? Retail for the NBA means NBA products, like jerseys and hats. Shoes are not an NBA product. Jerseys being fashionable is a good thing. Nobody really cares about the NBA, they just to watch the playoffs and talk about it on social media and set attendance record the past couple seasons and buy jerseys. That seems to come off as caring.... Everything about the NBA with you has a negative slant. The NBA's prime time ratings were down 6% from last year and even with 14-15. They are not killing ESPN. LOL. The weekend games destroy baseball in ratings. Baseball does well at the local level. I'm in the St. Louis market. It's not the biggest market, but it may be top 2 or 3, all things considered. There is no football or basketball team, and the Cardinals are far and away the biggest deal in the city regardless of who comes or goes. It's the definition of a baseball town. In terms of who brings in money, the Blues (and Rams before that) may as well not exist. It's not a very good argument to say essentially "And that's only St. Louis." because the Cardinals have always made money hand over fist. They're 2nd in attendance, and 7th in merch, almost comparable to the NY teams and San Fran, two quite larger markets. So yes, in terms of making money, they ARE quite close... I just presented you with plenty of evidence that NBA ratings aren't that great. Even with 14-15 isn't something to brag about, because at that point it was TNT's lowest ratings for years, until the season afterwards. TV ratings are trending downwards and yet it is the biggest point to give the NBA more success over other leagues. About the social media thing, yes NBA has so called "social media" success. People talk about it. But that translates to nothing really, not revenue or ratings. ESPN/TNT bought into the whole social media will translate to ratings and success, but it really hasn't played out. The negative part of social media for the NFL certainly exists, probably even more so than the NBA. But the NFL doesn't use it as a major metric of their success, because they have measurable success in ratings and attendence. As far as attendance, once again I am going to offer actual evidence, not just my own opinion, MLB murders NBA. Not just total attendance either, this is average league wide attendance per game. www.businessinsider.com/attendance-sports-leagues-world-2015-5 Yes this was two years ago, but I don't think MLB dropped 13,000 people per game in two years. But I will concede one thing to you, baseball is more successful at the local level within their fan base than at a national level of the NBA. It is also true, St. Louis is certainly a baseball city. Although it is much more successful at a local level than most NBA franchises. Either way, my original point was the NBA was closer to MLB/NHL in popularity than the NFL and I think it is still pretty safe to say it is. We could go back and forth on whether NBA is more popular than MLB or not, but it really seems to be going nowhere.
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sfvega
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Post by sfvega on May 7, 2017 2:08:49 GMT -5
Wow. Like there's no negative social media for the NFL? Retail for the NBA means NBA products, like jerseys and hats. Shoes are not an NBA product. Jerseys being fashionable is a good thing. Nobody really cares about the NBA, they just to watch the playoffs and talk about it on social media and set attendance record the past couple seasons and buy jerseys. That seems to come off as caring.... Everything about the NBA with you has a negative slant. The NBA's prime time ratings were down 6% from last year and even with 14-15. They are not killing ESPN. LOL. The weekend games destroy baseball in ratings. Baseball does well at the local level. I'm in the St. Louis market. It's not the biggest market, but it may be top 2 or 3, all things considered. There is no football or basketball team, and the Cardinals are far and away the biggest deal in the city regardless of who comes or goes. It's the definition of a baseball town. In terms of who brings in money, the Blues (and Rams before that) may as well not exist. It's not a very good argument to say essentially "And that's only St. Louis." because the Cardinals have always made money hand over fist. They're 2nd in attendance, and 7th in merch, almost comparable to the NY teams and San Fran, two quite larger markets. So yes, in terms of making money, they ARE quite close... I just presented you with plenty of evidence that NBA ratings aren't that great. Even with 14-15 isn't something to brag about, because at that point it was TNT's lowest ratings for years, until the season afterwards. TV ratings are trending downwards and yet it is the biggest point to give the NBA more success over other leagues. About the social media thing, yes NBA has so called "social media" success. People talk about it. But that translates to nothing really, not revenue or ratings. ESPN/TNT bought into the whole social media will translate to ratings and success, but it really hasn't played out. The negative part of social media for the NFL certainly exists, probably even more so than the NBA. But the NFL doesn't use it as a major metric of their success, because they have measurable success in ratings and attendence. As far as attendance, once again I am going to offer actual evidence, not just my own opinion, MLB murders NBA. Not just total attendance either, this is average league wide attendance per game. www.businessinsider.com/attendance-sports-leagues-world-2015-5 Yes this was two years ago, but I don't think MLB dropped 13,000 people per game in two years. But I will concede one thing to you, baseball is more successful at the local level within their fan base than at a national level of the NBA. It is also true, St. Louis is certainly a baseball city. Although it is much more successful at a local level than most NBA franchises. Either way, my original point was the NBA was closer to MLB/NHL in popularity than the NFL and I think it is still pretty safe to say it is. We could go back and forth on whether NBA is more popular than MLB or not, but it really seems to be going nowhere. The NBA's rating in-market were down, their prime time across cable networks are down only 6% and even with the year prior. I wasn't bragging about 14-15. Considering cord cutting, that's not bad at all. You could easily argue that being rather steady. And what is the average prime time NBA rating vs. The MLB? Or the playoffs? I'm sure it's a fair uptick better. I'm sure the Cubs games did well for very obvious reasons, but a series like Texas/Toronto probably did quite poorly. And it even had intrigue. Social media represents a few things. Nobody said it led to revenue itself. Why would the NBA get money because I tweeted #RussyWestfashion? That's not how that works. What it DOES do is illustrate further that the NBA has pretty heavily captured the younger audience, who drives social media. And also that it's just more popular and has more casual fans. Casual fans drive growth. The NFL is king because it has droves of casual fans. The NBA has measurable success in ratings and merchandise. MLB attendance is great. It also has larger stadiums versus smaller arenas. Even NHL teams like Toronto or Edmonton could build bigger arenas, because their fanbases are nuts. But the arenas aren't just hockey arenas. They also hold basketball games and concerts and all sorts of shit. You can't build a 70,000 seat stadium and then sell 10,000 tickets to a concert the next weekend. Most baseball stadiums are outdoor and are made for baseball first and only. There's occasionally a hockey game or large concert or Euro team soccer game at Busch, but it's a baseball stadium 81 (most times more) days a year and then just sits there the rest of the year. NBA attendance could be better with bigger arenas, but they're all venues for a lot of other things. I don't think the NBA is close to the NFL today, obviously. I just think that if you're asking which sport is #2 in America, it's pretty easily the NBA almost to a person. 10 years from now, I think the NBA could be on equal footing with the NFL. The MLB has a lot to figure out. They keep trying to modernize the game and it keeps pissing off their core fans. They have a delicate balance ahead of them. The NHL is just a niche sport going forward unless they actually get back on ESPN at some point, sadly.
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Post by corndog on May 7, 2017 11:07:53 GMT -5
I just presented you with plenty of evidence that NBA ratings aren't that great. Even with 14-15 isn't something to brag about, because at that point it was TNT's lowest ratings for years, until the season afterwards. TV ratings are trending downwards and yet it is the biggest point to give the NBA more success over other leagues. About the social media thing, yes NBA has so called "social media" success. People talk about it. But that translates to nothing really, not revenue or ratings. ESPN/TNT bought into the whole social media will translate to ratings and success, but it really hasn't played out. The negative part of social media for the NFL certainly exists, probably even more so than the NBA. But the NFL doesn't use it as a major metric of their success, because they have measurable success in ratings and attendence. As far as attendance, once again I am going to offer actual evidence, not just my own opinion, MLB murders NBA. Not just total attendance either, this is average league wide attendance per game. www.businessinsider.com/attendance-sports-leagues-world-2015-5 Yes this was two years ago, but I don't think MLB dropped 13,000 people per game in two years. But I will concede one thing to you, baseball is more successful at the local level within their fan base than at a national level of the NBA. It is also true, St. Louis is certainly a baseball city. Although it is much more successful at a local level than most NBA franchises. Either way, my original point was the NBA was closer to MLB/NHL in popularity than the NFL and I think it is still pretty safe to say it is. We could go back and forth on whether NBA is more popular than MLB or not, but it really seems to be going nowhere. The NBA's rating in-market were down, their prime time across cable networks are down only 6% and even with the year prior. I wasn't bragging about 14-15. Considering cord cutting, that's not bad at all. You could easily argue that being rather steady. And what is the average prime time NBA rating vs. The MLB? Or the playoffs? I'm sure it's a fair uptick better. I'm sure the Cubs games did well for very obvious reasons, but a series like Texas/Toronto probably did quite poorly. And it even had intrigue. Social media represents a few things. Nobody said it led to revenue itself. Why would the NBA get money because I tweeted #RussyWestfashion? That's not how that works. What it DOES do is illustrate further that the NBA has pretty heavily captured the younger audience, who drives social media. And also that it's just more popular and has more casual fans. Casual fans drive growth. The NFL is king because it has droves of casual fans. The NBA has measurable success in ratings and merchandise. MLB attendance is great. It also has larger stadiums versus smaller arenas. Even NHL teams like Toronto or Edmonton could build bigger arenas, because their fanbases are nuts. But the arenas aren't just hockey arenas. They also hold basketball games and concerts and all sorts of shit. You can't build a 70,000 seat stadium and then sell 10,000 tickets to a concert the next weekend. Most baseball stadiums are outdoor and are made for baseball first and only. There's occasionally a hockey game or large concert or Euro team soccer game at Busch, but it's a baseball stadium 81 (most times more) days a year and then just sits there the rest of the year. NBA attendance could be better with bigger arenas, but they're all venues for a lot of other things. I don't think the NBA is close to the NFL today, obviously. I just think that if you're asking which sport is #2 in America, it's pretty easily the NBA almost to a person. 10 years from now, I think the NBA could be on equal footing with the NFL. The MLB has a lot to figure out. They keep trying to modernize the game and it keeps pissing off their core fans. They have a delicate balance ahead of them. The NHL is just a niche sport going forward unless they actually get back on ESPN at some point, sadly. As I said before, I will concede the national tv ratings for NBA, casual NBA fans are much more likely to watch national broadcasts with "big" match ups to see the stars of the game. The stars of the NBA are the draw and will always to continue to be so. Also, the NBA playoffs are a massive ratings draw, no doubt about that. However, at local levels and easily in mid-markets, baseball is doing much better. Baseball fans are just becoming more introverted and has so many games of their own team, they don't watch other teams. As far as social media, the real problem with social media is most of the time it is about a story rather than the sport. This is why sports broadcasting is geared in that direction. The NBA has a lot more stories with the players than MLB, because the players are more transparent and there is much more gossip within the league. This younger generation really doesn't seem to watch sports at all, but they love hearing about crazy stories and watching videos. Still hasn't translated to them watching the games. At the end of the day, I still don't buy the whole MLB is dying thing, especially when you see articles like this Baseball Team Values 2017 that say baseball teams are making 7.5% more revenue in 2016 than 2015 and only 5 teams in the league are losing money, which two of them happen to have the highest payrolls. Then, an article that disputes your entire point of the NBA being closer to the NFL,, which also illustrates that the same level of young people don't follow both sports, but more young people follow baseball. www.businessinsider.com/major-league-baseball-nba-popularity-2015-2 It does show that the NBA finals do better than the fall classic, but that is well known and it's not as much of a gap as you would expect. Since MLB fans are more team oriented and basketball playoffs draw more casual fans. Manfred's obsession with making the game go faster can be worrisome, but it's not causing people to tune out. ESPN is upset at baseball because they are paying more for television($700 million vs $500 million) than Fox, yet Fox gets the Championship Series games and the World Series. That is why they keep trying to play up how MLB is "dying", only old people watch it and it will eventually become a niche sport like hockey. We will see, but right now the trends of money, attendance and local ratings aren't saying that at all. Also, ESPN hates baseball because it is a key component of why regional sports networks are doing so well and ESPN is hurting. "Game of the week" on ESPN doesn't really matter when you can get over 100 games a season of your own team with announcers geared towards your own fanbase. But I guess we will just have to wait and see where we are in 10 years. Personally I think it's just ESPN propaganda due to sour grapes. ESPN is heavily invested in the NBA and needs it to do well, baseball not so much and I have a feeling either they don't renew it or get a smaller more network friendly contract. I will say both leagues are in good shape. While I still believe MLB is #2 in the United States and have plenty of evidence to prove it, the NBA is a massive draw overseas and their worldwide popularity will more than sustain the league for years to come.
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sfvega
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Post by sfvega on May 7, 2017 18:42:11 GMT -5
The NBA's rating in-market were down, their prime time across cable networks are down only 6% and even with the year prior. I wasn't bragging about 14-15. Considering cord cutting, that's not bad at all. You could easily argue that being rather steady. And what is the average prime time NBA rating vs. The MLB? Or the playoffs? I'm sure it's a fair uptick better. I'm sure the Cubs games did well for very obvious reasons, but a series like Texas/Toronto probably did quite poorly. And it even had intrigue. Social media represents a few things. Nobody said it led to revenue itself. Why would the NBA get money because I tweeted #RussyWestfashion? That's not how that works. What it DOES do is illustrate further that the NBA has pretty heavily captured the younger audience, who drives social media. And also that it's just more popular and has more casual fans. Casual fans drive growth. The NFL is king because it has droves of casual fans. The NBA has measurable success in ratings and merchandise. MLB attendance is great. It also has larger stadiums versus smaller arenas. Even NHL teams like Toronto or Edmonton could build bigger arenas, because their fanbases are nuts. But the arenas aren't just hockey arenas. They also hold basketball games and concerts and all sorts of shit. You can't build a 70,000 seat stadium and then sell 10,000 tickets to a concert the next weekend. Most baseball stadiums are outdoor and are made for baseball first and only. There's occasionally a hockey game or large concert or Euro team soccer game at Busch, but it's a baseball stadium 81 (most times more) days a year and then just sits there the rest of the year. NBA attendance could be better with bigger arenas, but they're all venues for a lot of other things. I don't think the NBA is close to the NFL today, obviously. I just think that if you're asking which sport is #2 in America, it's pretty easily the NBA almost to a person. 10 years from now, I think the NBA could be on equal footing with the NFL. The MLB has a lot to figure out. They keep trying to modernize the game and it keeps pissing off their core fans. They have a delicate balance ahead of them. The NHL is just a niche sport going forward unless they actually get back on ESPN at some point, sadly. As I said before, I will concede the national tv ratings for NBA, casual NBA fans are much more likely to watch national broadcasts with "big" match ups to see the stars of the game. The stars of the NBA are the draw and will always to continue to be so. Also, the NBA playoffs are a massive ratings draw, no doubt about that. However, at local levels and easily in mid-markets, baseball is doing much better. Baseball fans are just becoming more introverted and has so many games of their own team, they don't watch other teams. As far as social media, the real problem with social media is most of the time it is about a story rather than the sport. This is why sports broadcasting is geared in that direction. The NBA has a lot more stories with the players than MLB, because the players are more transparent and there is much more gossip within the league. This younger generation really doesn't seem to watch sports at all, but they love hearing about crazy stories and watching videos. Still hasn't translated to them watching the games. Introverted seems like you're saying that the fans aren't as interested in the sport as they are their own team. Let's face if, the NBA Finals and the Super Bowl will always, always be watched. Why is it that the MLB has a problem getting people who like baseball to watch it's championship? Also, again with the slant on the NBA. These younger kids don't even seem to watch the sport. Just tweet about stories and controversy. Yes, they do watch the sport. Which is why the NBA is winning in that demo. It's why they trend on Twitter during prime time games. It also helps that the TNT post-show is an event in itself. Things like Shaqtin a Fool have caught fire MAINLY with the younger demographic. And the NBA's official Twitter has more followers by like a ton than other sports leagues. If kids are only interested in controversy, why are they following a boring league page? At the end of the day, I still don't buy the whole MLB is dying thing, especially when you see articles like this Baseball Team Values 2017 that say baseball teams are making 7.5% more revenue in 2016 than 2015 and only 5 teams in the league are losing money, which two of them happen to have the highest payrolls. Then, an article that disputes your entire point of the NBA being closer to the NFL,, which also illustrates that the same level of young people don't follow both sports, but more young people follow baseball. www.businessinsider.com/major-league-baseball-nba-popularity-2015-2 It does show that the NBA finals do better than the fall classic, but that is well known and it's not as much of a gap as you would expect. Since MLB fans are more team oriented and basketball playoffs draw more casual fans. Manfred's obsession with making the game go faster can be worrisome, but it's not causing people to tune out. This article takes one study, which they don't even provide statistics for and extrapolate it to the entire country. It's kind of hard to say "50% more Americans do X than do X" when you may have only questioned say 300 people. They are also very generous with their numbers. The first chart shows just people 18 and up, and the 2nd chart shows 18-29. I'm 30, and while I really appreciate being so close to being considered the "younger demographic", somebody needs their eyes checked. You can't be anywhere near 30 and be considered a younger demo. That's full-on adulthood. But since everything is 18 and older, I wonder if they could even survey people under 18 for some sort of legal reasons. ESPN is upset at baseball because they are paying more for television($700 million vs $500 million) than Fox, yet Fox gets the Championship Series games and the World Series. That is why they keep trying to play up how MLB is "dying", only old people watch it and it will eventually become a niche sport like hockey. We will see, but right now the trends of money, attendance and local ratings aren't saying that at all. Also, ESPN hates baseball because it is a key component of why regional sports networks are doing so well and ESPN is hurting. "Game of the week" on ESPN doesn't really matter when you can get over 100 games a season of your own team with announcers geared towards your own fanbase. But I guess we will just have to wait and see where we are in 10 years. Personally I think it's just ESPN propaganda due to sour grapes. ESPN is heavily invested in the NBA and needs it to do well, baseball not so much and I have a feeling either they don't renew it or get a smaller more network friendly contract. I will say both leagues are in good shape. While I still believe MLB is #2 in the United States and have plenty of evidence to prove it, the NBA is a massive draw overseas and their worldwide popularity will more than sustain the league for years to come. ESPN is not upset with something that is their only viable sport to cover from June to August. ESPN is upset with the NHL, which you can tell by their complete lack of coverage the last 10 years. ESPN is not trying to bury baseball, because they can pretty easily and regardless of what they could be paying, they still have a sizable investment in it. No one said that baseball is dying. I can't go 4 seconds without hearing about the Cardinals, so I'd be pretty crazy to think that baseball has 1 foot in the grave. But the NBA is pretty clearly ahead of them. I wouldn't expect MLB teams to not make good money when they have 81 home games a year in larger ballparks. But, at the end of the day, more people watch an average prime time game in basketball. They watch the playoffs more. They watch the Finals more. So it definitely seems more popular nationwide, not overseas or globally, but right here.
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Post by corndog on May 8, 2017 2:05:24 GMT -5
As I said before, I will concede the national tv ratings for NBA, casual NBA fans are much more likely to watch national broadcasts with "big" match ups to see the stars of the game. The stars of the NBA are the draw and will always to continue to be so. Also, the NBA playoffs are a massive ratings draw, no doubt about that. However, at local levels and easily in mid-markets, baseball is doing much better. Baseball fans are just becoming more introverted and has so many games of their own team, they don't watch other teams. As far as social media, the real problem with social media is most of the time it is about a story rather than the sport. This is why sports broadcasting is geared in that direction. The NBA has a lot more stories with the players than MLB, because the players are more transparent and there is much more gossip within the league. This younger generation really doesn't seem to watch sports at all, but they love hearing about crazy stories and watching videos. Still hasn't translated to them watching the games. Introverted seems like you're saying that the fans aren't as interested in the sport as they are their own team. Let's face if, the NBA Finals and the Super Bowl will always, always be watched. Why is it that the MLB has a problem getting people who like baseball to watch it's championship? Also, again with the slant on the NBA. These younger kids don't even seem to watch the sport. Just tweet about stories and controversy. Yes, they do watch the sport. Which is why the NBA is winning in that demo. It's why they trend on Twitter during prime time games. It also helps that the TNT post-show is an event in itself. Things like Shaqtin a Fool have caught fire MAINLY with the younger demographic. And the NBA's official Twitter has more followers by like a ton than other sports leagues. If kids are only interested in controversy, why are they following a boring league page? At the end of the day, I still don't buy the whole MLB is dying thing, especially when you see articles like this Baseball Team Values 2017 that say baseball teams are making 7.5% more revenue in 2016 than 2015 and only 5 teams in the league are losing money, which two of them happen to have the highest payrolls. Then, an article that disputes your entire point of the NBA being closer to the NFL,, which also illustrates that the same level of young people don't follow both sports, but more young people follow baseball. www.businessinsider.com/major-league-baseball-nba-popularity-2015-2 It does show that the NBA finals do better than the fall classic, but that is well known and it's not as much of a gap as you would expect. Since MLB fans are more team oriented and basketball playoffs draw more casual fans. Manfred's obsession with making the game go faster can be worrisome, but it's not causing people to tune out. This article takes one study, which they don't even provide statistics for and extrapolate it to the entire country. It's kind of hard to say "50% more Americans do X than do X" when you may have only questioned say 300 people. They are also very generous with their numbers. The first chart shows just people 18 and up, and the 2nd chart shows 18-29. I'm 30, and while I really appreciate being so close to being considered the "younger demographic", somebody needs their eyes checked. You can't be anywhere near 30 and be considered a younger demo. That's full-on adulthood. But since everything is 18 and older, I wonder if they could even survey people under 18 for some sort of legal reasons. ESPN is upset at baseball because they are paying more for television($700 million vs $500 million) than Fox, yet Fox gets the Championship Series games and the World Series. That is why they keep trying to play up how MLB is "dying", only old people watch it and it will eventually become a niche sport like hockey. We will see, but right now the trends of money, attendance and local ratings aren't saying that at all. Also, ESPN hates baseball because it is a key component of why regional sports networks are doing so well and ESPN is hurting. "Game of the week" on ESPN doesn't really matter when you can get over 100 games a season of your own team with announcers geared towards your own fanbase. But I guess we will just have to wait and see where we are in 10 years. Personally I think it's just ESPN propaganda due to sour grapes. ESPN is heavily invested in the NBA and needs it to do well, baseball not so much and I have a feeling either they don't renew it or get a smaller more network friendly contract. I will say both leagues are in good shape. While I still believe MLB is #2 in the United States and have plenty of evidence to prove it, the NBA is a massive draw overseas and their worldwide popularity will more than sustain the league for years to come. ESPN is not upset with something that is their only viable sport to cover from June to August. ESPN is upset with the NHL, which you can tell by their complete lack of coverage the last 10 years. ESPN is not trying to bury baseball, because they can pretty easily and regardless of what they could be paying, they still have a sizable investment in it. No one said that baseball is dying. I can't go 4 seconds without hearing about the Cardinals, so I'd be pretty crazy to think that baseball has 1 foot in the grave. But the NBA is pretty clearly ahead of them. I wouldn't expect MLB teams to not make good money when they have 81 home games a year in larger ballparks. But, at the end of the day, more people watch an average prime time game in basketball. They watch the playoffs more. They watch the Finals more. So it definitely seems more popular nationwide, not overseas or globally, but right here.
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sfvega
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Post by sfvega on May 8, 2017 3:12:24 GMT -5
Introverted seems like you're saying that the fans aren't as interested in the sport as they are their own team. Let's face if, the NBA Finals and the Super Bowl will always, always be watched. Why is it that the MLB has a problem getting people who like baseball to watch it's championship? Also, again with the slant on the NBA. These younger kids don't even seem to watch the sport. Just tweet about stories and controversy. Yes, they do watch the sport. Which is why the NBA is winning in that demo. It's why they trend on Twitter during prime time games. It also helps that the TNT post-show is an event in itself. Things like Shaqtin a Fool have caught fire MAINLY with the younger demographic. And the NBA's official Twitter has more followers by like a ton than other sports leagues. If kids are only interested in controversy, why are they following a boring league page? This article takes one study, which they don't even provide statistics for and extrapolate it to the entire country. It's kind of hard to say "50% more Americans do X than do X" when you may have only questioned say 300 people. They are also very generous with their numbers. The first chart shows just people 18 and up, and the 2nd chart shows 18-29. I'm 30, and while I really appreciate being so close to being considered the "younger demographic", somebody needs their eyes checked. You can't be anywhere near 30 and be considered a younger demo. That's full-on adulthood. But since everything is 18 and older, I wonder if they could even survey people under 18 for some sort of legal reasons. ESPN is not upset with something that is their only viable sport to cover from June to August. ESPN is upset with the NHL, which you can tell by their complete lack of coverage the last 10 years. ESPN is not trying to bury baseball, because they can pretty easily and regardless of what they could be paying, they still have a sizable investment in it. No one said that baseball is dying. I can't go 4 seconds without hearing about the Cardinals, so I'd be pretty crazy to think that baseball has 1 foot in the grave. But the NBA is pretty clearly ahead of them. I wouldn't expect MLB teams to not make good money when they have 81 home games a year in larger ballparks. But, at the end of the day, more people watch an average prime time game in basketball. They watch the playoffs more. They watch the Finals more. So it definitely seems more popular nationwide, not overseas or globally, but right here. This is your most agreeable take so far.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on May 13, 2017 10:46:51 GMT -5
I've been reading this debate. I wouldn't say ESPN is a good judgement on popularity as a struggling network now. The reason why they struggle is because the lack of coverage to the overall audience interest. When you spend what seems like all day basically talking about and continue to go back to in minutes on the same subject, that's becomes an issue. Look back at when Payton Manning retired. That all they talked about as if NOTHING at all else was happening in sports. Yes it was a big story for the NFL. Yes it was a big deal but that doesn't mean break down every single angle about it and not talk about the other news.
The fact they cater more to the Northeast teams in most sports or the HUGE market eras instead of who really is the best teams. Listen to the radio shows tells you when it is not a local ran show. As I said in other post and maybe here. First and Last is an example, until this week which changed since one of the host Mike Lungburd was released. That show was always about NBA and NFL. They added in some hockey NOW but last year during the playoffs, NOTHING. under 30 seconds when the champion was crown. The thing about the NBA talk is 90% about Labron James and Stef Curry. Yes are two of the best in the NBA now and on two dominate Teams but as someone in St. Louis, I don't care. I talk about this because TV isn't much different and I feel if they covered more to gain interest from more markets they overall would been in a better state. I get that NBA is a big coverage because they invested more money on them compared to any other sports.
TV ratings in general has fallen across the board because of the many different ways to watch something. They don't factor in any thing that was streamed. That like comparing TNA ratings to ROH when they where on DA, when people forget that the same ROH show was seeing on other networks on different nights and networks. Again can't compare them.
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ToyfareMark
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Post by ToyfareMark on May 19, 2017 1:53:17 GMT -5
Even if the strike never happened, the nfl was bound to pass them in popularity soon enough. On the field, the Expos probably beat the Indians in the World Series in 7 games. Those 90s Indians lineups were fearsome The NFL passed MLB in popularity in the late 60's, and has been number 1 ever since.
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Post by thegame415 on May 19, 2017 4:23:39 GMT -5
I actually kind of view MLB as being number one from 1998-2004.
Jordan's retirement hurt the NBA and NFL numbers were rising every year.
The popularity started with the home run chase and ended with the Red Sox 04 win, which I consider the WM 17 of the era.
The Patriots Super Bowl appearances helped the NFL grow, along with great characters like TO, Ray Lewis and Chad Johnson. I think of the Pats/Eagles Super Bowl and Monday Night Football's move to ESPN as start of their boom.
NBA's new boom started with Lebron heading back to Cleveland.
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sfvega
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Post by sfvega on May 19, 2017 6:35:31 GMT -5
I actually kind of view MLB as being number one from 1998-2004. Jordan's retirement hurt the NBA and NFL numbers were rising every year. The popularity started with the home run chase and ended with the Red Sox 04 win, which I consider the WM 17 of the era. The Patriots Super Bowl appearances helped the NFL grow, along with great characters like TO, Ray Lewis and Chad Johnson. I think of the Pats/Eagles Super Bowl and Monday Night Football's move to ESPN as start of their boom. NBA's new boom started with Lebron heading back to Cleveland. If you look at the WS ratings, 98 was a pretty down year at that time, and even 04 wasn't a big spike. 98 brought back a lot of fans from the strike, but I really don't think the MLB was #1 by any means at the time. 04 and 16 drew for historic reasons, but weren't really indicative of a boom in popularity. The Eagles/Pats Super Bowl was a 4-year low, and got surpassed by over 10 million viewers by the XLII one and grew more and more going forward from that. MNF moving to ESPN has been bad for their ratings.
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Post by fw91 on Jul 9, 2017 8:52:42 GMT -5
when did the NHL become a distant 4th? When ESPN lost its rights? I mean I assume it was always behind the other 3, but it was still always treated as a "big 4." Now its an after thought like "oh, hockey"
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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Jul 10, 2017 10:29:44 GMT -5
when did the NHL become a distant 4th? When ESPN lost its rights? I mean I assume it was always behind the other 3, but it was still always treated as a "big 4." Now its an after thought like "oh, hockey" I'd say when they had a lockout that took away an entire season, and then less than 10 years later another lockout that took away almost half of a season. And that was all after they had a lockout that took away almost half of a season in 1994-95. You can not have 3 lockouts that basically take away 2 seasons in less than 20 years, and not lose a lot of fans.
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