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Post by Ryback on a Pole! on May 31, 2017 11:54:29 GMT -5
I rewatched it again the other day after enjoying it the first time and, really I don't find that it holds up.
First the positives. The action scenes are great, fast and exciting. Finn, Rey, Poe and BB-8 are likeable enough characters, Kylo Ren is a great character. The scenes with Han returning to the Falcon, Han meeting Leia again and Han's death were all fantastic. There's some good one liners. Snoke looks badass and intimidating. Chewbacca's bowcaster been basically a portable artillery piece is cool.
What I didn't like.
The plot, it's basically a rehash of episode 4. Starkiller base was really lame, boring and unneeded. The First Order are boring. Space Nazis, yawn... haven't seen that before. Plus their aims and motivation seems to be basically the same as the Separatists from episodes 2 and 3.
Why not do something different with them, make them religious extremists who see Vader as a god as opposed to another group of space Nazis, an underground group of terrorists similar to ISIS/Al Qaeda, Space Communists, a group of aliens pissed off at the way they've been treated and deciding to take power for themselves etc.
Rey was overpowered. I know it's a complaint that's been said before but it needs mentioning. Great mechanic, fine I can buy that since she's a scavenger, it fits her character. Great duelist, yep she's shown using a staff as a weapon throughout so I can buy her handling a lightsabre well, been an ace pilot.... eh, maybe since she's force sensitive which apparently helps piloting skills (Letting Anakin pilot pods because of his jedi reflexes for example). But been such a great shot with a blaster, even though it's shown she's never held one before? Nope. Mastering the force immediately to use force persuasion and been able to best Kylo Ren. Nope. That made her cross into Mary Sue territory.
The scene where Finn considers leaving doesn't make much sense? Throughout the film he's been wanting to go to the rebels and his key motivation is doing things because "it's the right thing to do" yet all of a sudden when he arrives at the temple is goal is to bail and just escape The First Order? Doesn't really connect with what he's been prior to that.
The destruction of the republic was a giant meh moment. It would have worked if they showed a planet we know getting destroyed. Corruscant, Tattooine, Naboo etc. There would have been some sort of emotional connection if we saw them getting destroyed.
Finally no truly memorable dialogue beyond some funny quips. Even movies which tend to get dislike have some good, memorable dialogue. Yoda's "fear leads to anger" speech, Qui Gon's "feel don't think" advice, Shmi's "be brave, don't look back" (which I like because looking back to the past is what started Anakin's descent to the dark side). The Force Awakens, I'm really struggling to remember any of the more serious dialogue and quotes.
Overall, 2nd viewing I found the film to be disappointing. I'll adjust my Star Wars list to...
A New Hope
The Empire Strikes Back and Rogue One (can't pick between them)
Revenge of the Sith
Return of the Jedi
The Phantom Menace
The Force Awakens
Attack of the Clones
Overall, at the end I just felt disappointed with my 2nd viewing. Like it could have been so much more despite some
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on May 31, 2017 12:05:29 GMT -5
Yuh huh.
It's subjective, yuh huh is all I need.
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AFN: Judge Shred
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Post by AFN: Judge Shred on May 31, 2017 12:12:44 GMT -5
I reckon we find out Rey is more than we see. Most likely she was put on Jakku older than we realize after a memory wiping force trick by Luke to protect her from the Knights of Ren (which is likely your Vader Cult.)
As for Finn, they made it pretty clear over and over he was doing what he was doing to get away from the New Order, not because it was the right thing. They hammered it home really hard.
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AFN: Judge Shred
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Post by AFN: Judge Shred on May 31, 2017 12:14:27 GMT -5
Overall, the movie is a tad weak for the plotting, absolutely but there is a reason for that. The entire movie was made as a way to show fans they understood Star Wars, and that this wasn't going to be a "prequels" thing. So it retreat ground and locations to build familiarity and engender good will with the fanbase. I am sure episode 8 will be way more ready to take risks.
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Post by MC Blowfish on May 31, 2017 12:22:02 GMT -5
I don't get why people don't understand that Rey was fighting a severely injured and mentally tormented Kylo? He just took a direct hit from Chewie's bowcaster and kept fighting. That blew Stormtroopers off of their feet. Kylo kept fighting so of course Rey was able to take advantage of that. Plus he was struggling with what he just did. You know killing his father?
You don't remember Han speaking to Rey and Finn about the Jedi? "Thought it was a bunch of mumbo-jumbo. A magical power holding together good and evil, the dark side and the light. Crazy thing is... it's true. The Force. The Jedi... All of it... It's all true."
So Rey is an issue because she pulled off a Jedi mind trick on a first order trooper, but Luke blowing up the Death Star is what? I don't she even close to mastering the Force. She was able to tap into it, and as we have seen in past movies, that can be done with new Force users. You know Luke blowing up the Death Star. Anakin using force reflexes during the pod race.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 31, 2017 12:24:09 GMT -5
Well.........
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Post by Hit Girl on May 31, 2017 12:25:18 GMT -5
The First Order wants to destroy the New Republic, because they are hardcore fetishists for the Empire, which the New Republic defeated. That's a coherent explanation.
The only motive Lucas lazily provided for the Seperatists is that they wanted to seperate. Why? Something half-assed about bureaucracy, taxation, trade laws etc....zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
I agree though, it's a 100% rehash of the first film, but that may have been necessary. TFA is pretty much a disguised reboot.
That's what they basically are. Ren worships Vader. Snoke is effectively their spiritual leader/caliph.
Her origins are still unclear. So there could very well be a more detailed explanation for how she has inate mastery of the Force. But she's no more a Mary Sue than any other protagonist in a Hero's Journey narrative.
Agreed.
None of those lines from the prequels can be really considered memorable. All of them come from TPM which has a woeful screenplay.
By no reasonable metric can TFA be considered inferior to TPM. I think putting ROTS above the TFA is dubious too.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2017 12:28:55 GMT -5
Eh, different strokes, I liked it quite a lot.
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Post by The 1Watcher Experience on May 31, 2017 12:31:42 GMT -5
They won't top the original trilogy no matter what they do. It's too iconic. You won't find another trilogy of movies so universally loved out there. There was a very similar thread about this a few months ago and people made a lot of good points there. There were some memorable lines for me. Mostly from Han Solo. "That's not how the force works!" "Chewie, we're home." "Listen, Big Deal. You got another problem. Women always figure out the truth. Always." While Force Awakens does have its flaws, such as Starkiller base's destruction being anticlimactic and Rey learning to use the force too easily out of nowhere, it's still a fun movie.
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Post by Cyno on May 31, 2017 12:34:24 GMT -5
You lost me at "Mary Sue." I don't get why people don't understand that Rey was fighting a severely injured and mentally tormented Kylo? He just took a direct hit from Chewie's bowcaster and kept fighting. That blew Stormtroopers off of their feet. Kylo kept fighting so of course Rey was able to take advantage of that. Plus he was struggling with what he just did. You know killing his father? You don't remember Han speaking to Rey and Finn about the Jedi? "Thought it was a bunch of mumbo-jumbo. A magical power holding together good and evil, the dark side and the light. Crazy thing is... it's true. The Force. The Jedi... All of it... It's all true." So Rey is an issue because she pulled off a Jedi mind trick on a first order trooper, but Luke blowing up the Death Star is what? I don't she even close to mastering the Force. She was able to tap into it, and as we have seen in past movies, that can be done with new Force users. You know Luke blowing up the Death Star. Anakin using force reflexes during the pod race. Agreed with all of this. When it comes to newbie Force feats of heroism, I think Rey being able to hold her own in a lightsaber duel against a seriously injured Kylo Ren (who is more raw power than anything else; his own training is lacking) while a planet is coming apart around them is about as believable as, if not moreso than, Luke using the Force to guide a proton torpedo perfectly down a 2 meter-wide shaft to a reactor core. Also, her Jedi mind trick worked on the stormtrooper because storm-troopers are weak willed and weak minded grunts whose only purpose is to shoot things and serve as cannon fodder. We're talking about "taking a 10" in terms of chances of success here, to use d20 terminology. |
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on May 31, 2017 12:41:40 GMT -5
My biggest problems
- WAY too much copying of A New Hope. It went far past homage and into laziness.
- The geopolitical (astropolitical?) situation is murky at best, and doesn't flow in any natural way from the end of Return of the Jedi. What exactly is the First Order? How do they have so many resources? What is The Resistance, exactly? Lord Snoke? Knights of Ren? Huh?
- I appreciate Maz's Cantina being filled with practical effects, but the CGI on her was godawful. As was the CGI on the monsters that Han Solo was shipping. Actually that whole sequence with the differing bands of gangsters coming after Solo was one of the lowest points in the movie for me
- Finn went from PTSD to gleefully killing his fellow troopers REALLY fast
-Captain Phasma was woefully underutilized
With that said it is better than any of the prequels by about a thousand percent
Empire/Return of the Jedi
A New Hope
Rogue One
Force Awakens
Revenge of the Sith
Phantom Menace
and way down here
Attack of the Clones
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Post by HMARK Center on May 31, 2017 12:42:10 GMT -5
Yeah, still don't buy the "Mary Sue" stuff. Her pulling off the Jedi mind trick so early is the one questionable thing for me, that was about it.
That said, I do think the flick doesn't really have the rewatch-ability of the originals, though that could easily be the nostalgia talking. It's a good movie, and the characters/dialog were solid, but I agree that Starkiller Base/The First Order ended up pretty lame and the feeling of "we have to reset everything so we're back to the Episode IV-VI status quo" got annoying after awhile. It was a good way to wash the bad taste of the prequels away, but yeah, it did kind of feel like one in a line of current Disney blockbusters that seem to have a checklist that says "How can we guarantee this will be a hit?", followed by "How many people in corporate do we need to run the script through before we can finalize it?"
Again, good movie, and felt nice to have a good Star Wars movie again, but it would've been nice to have something that was different, too. That's another reason it's such a shame the prequels were a damned mess, they did feel different from the originals, which could've made them great if they had been handled well...alas, they were different in all the wrong ways.
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the2ndevil
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Post by the2ndevil on May 31, 2017 12:44:03 GMT -5
Just don't get why they called it Episode seven, when it was clearly episode one of a new story.
Star Wars was inspired by the old film serials. That's how those worked.
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Post by Cyno on May 31, 2017 12:56:27 GMT -5
- The geopolitical (astropolitical?) situation is murky at best, and doesn't flow in any natural way from the end of Return of the Jedi. What exactly is the First Order? How do they have so many resources? What is The Resistance, exactly? Lord Snoke? Knights of Ren? Huh? The current galactic political situation is explained through various supplementary materials like the official canon books. Which is a weakness of the movie's storytelling but then it's hard to convey just how much has changed in 30 years in 2 hours' time without boring the audience to tears. Basically, the First Order is an insurgent military junta and the ultimate result of the Emperor's Contingency plan for a new Empire should he be killed. It's made up of Imperial diehard loyalists who escaped the Alliance/New Republic and secret traitors operating under the New Republic's nose. They've been biding their time for the last 30 years in the Unknown Regions, building up their resources, ships, weapons, etc. The Resistance is a private militia organized by Leia to fight the First Order as the New Republic doesn't want to face the political backlash from a galaxy tired of war to officially commit the Republic Navy to fighting them, though they do enjoy some under-the-table Republic support. As for where Snoke came from? That's a mystery that will likely be revealed in the latter movies. |
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Post by A Platypus Rave on May 31, 2017 12:57:27 GMT -5
I enjoyed it, I watched it twice.
Rey's powers are no less explained than Luke completely untrained tapping into the force to blow up the Deathstar, or any of what Anakin did including being born in Phantom Menace.
Kylo Ren took a shot to the side with a weapon that was built up as stupidly powerful literally blowing up everyone else that was hit with it when they had their lightsaber fight.
I'd probably rank it 4th behind the Original Trilogy.
What usually surprises me is how high people tend to rank Rogue one which I really didn't... it was ok but I found a lot of the acting really wooden and found parts of the cast really didn't have anything to do...
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Post by Cela on May 31, 2017 13:12:03 GMT -5
It was the most disappointed I've ever been leaving a theater. Just walked back in silence feeling a sense of betrayal. F*** this movie.
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AFN: Judge Shred
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Post by AFN: Judge Shred on May 31, 2017 13:13:56 GMT -5
Just don't get why they called it Episode seven, when it was clearly episode one of a new story. Star Wars was inspired by the old film serials. That's how those worked. Because it is part of the Skywalker saga. Those are going to continue to use the numbers. |
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Perd
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Post by Perd on May 31, 2017 13:17:52 GMT -5
It was alright. I definitely didn't like it as much as any of the original trilogy.
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Post by mcmahonfan85 on May 31, 2017 13:25:19 GMT -5
I don't get why people don't understand that Rey was fighting a severely injured and mentally tormented Kylo? He just took a direct hit from Chewie's bowcaster and kept fighting. That blew Stormtroopers off of their feet. Kylo kept fighting so of course Rey was able to take advantage of that. Plus he was struggling with what he just did. You know killing his father? You don't remember Han speaking to Rey and Finn about the Jedi? "Thought it was a bunch of mumbo-jumbo. A magical power holding together good and evil, the dark side and the light. Crazy thing is... it's true. The Force. The Jedi... All of it... It's all true." So Rey is an issue because she pulled off a Jedi mind trick on a first order trooper, but Luke blowing up the Death Star is what? I don't she even close to mastering the Force. She was able to tap into it, and as we have seen in past movies, that can be done with new Force users. You know Luke blowing up the Death Star. Anakin using force reflexes during the pod race. except Kilo Ren was kicking her ass until he said "...the Force". then she does a Matrix download and suddenly she remembers how to fight and suddenly he's injuries become a factor, so that suddenly makes it plausible within the context of that created universe for her to beat him? no, it was a badly written scene. throughout the entirety of the original Star Wars movie, Luke is able to accomplish a grand total two things using the force: blocking one shot from the training droid and blowing up the Death Star (after being told to do so by ghost Obi Wan). the rest of the time he's whining because he can't do this and he can't do that. Rey on the other hand is able to (suddenly) beat someone with much more experience with the Force and fighting with a lightsaber, do a Jedi mind trick, can shoot anything, fix anything, fly anything, speaking any language... |
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Post by A Platypus Rave on May 31, 2017 13:27:00 GMT -5
From what I remember he was hunched over and punching his side when he was still fighting Finn.
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