Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,277
|
Post by Allie Kitsune on Jun 16, 2017 7:07:07 GMT -5
Honestly, it is kind of the same problem as in hip hop... A lot of these young dudes are squares and not as cool as the previous generations. Also, what they do is pretty far removed from what the legends of the industry do, to the point it is hard to base them on the same criteria. So, what you're saying is that this newer generation of wrestlers needs to have the threat of Suge Knight shooting them or dropping them out of a window hanging over their heads to be any good?
|
|
|
Post by abjordans on Jun 16, 2017 8:29:16 GMT -5
Honestly, it is kind of the same problem as in hip hop... A lot of these young dudes are squares and not as cool as the previous generations. Also, what they do is pretty far removed from what the legends of the industry do, to the point it is hard to base them on the same criteria. So, what you're saying is that this newer generation of wrestlers needs to have the threat of Suge Knight shooting them or dropping them out of a window hanging over their heads to be any good? Pretty much. I would say that scenario is the definition of larger than life, something this generation is severely missing. Someone needs to Suge Knight the wrestling business.
|
|
|
Post by A Platypus Rave on Jun 16, 2017 9:40:53 GMT -5
Not at all. You know who I do blame? You. That's right, you. Look at yourself, you're a mess. What are you doing with your life? It's time to get out and see the world. You never want to sniff flowers with me anymore cause you're a f***ing deadbeat.
|
|
Talent Name
Ozymandius
Got fined anyway. Possibly a Moose
James Franco is the white Donald Glover
Posts: 62,487
Member is Online
|
Post by Talent Name on Jun 16, 2017 9:57:08 GMT -5
For Bayley or Jinder or Nia or whoever to be the next big thing they would need to completely overhaul how WWE's entire "creative" process works. 90% of the roster are dead in the water thanks to scripts ranging from bland to terrible and general apathy from the writers. It's either "Yeah, go have another match", "Here's your promo, say it just like we taught you." or "Got nothing for you this week." Guys that have AJ's workrate, Nakamura's charisma, Roman's push or in Asuka's case all three, will survive. Lesser talents(not an insult, there just has to be a 2nd tier) will wither and die, no chance to recover because there's a long ass line at the door. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}BONUS RANT! Paul E. was great at hiding his guys weaknesses.
I've seen people in the business say that like an insult. Those people are ****ing marks. Paul E. understood you play to your talent's strengths.
Taz looked like a bad motha******. Paul E. asked "Can you back that up with your work?" Taz could so they booked him as a bad motha******. Never once did Joey Styles say "But he's only 5'7!" Why? Cause it's not a real contest. It a show. I don't want to watch Will Ferrell in a drama, I don't want to watch Sami Zayne be an annoying child. I want some comedy and a goddamn likable underdog!
There are some great examples of a wrestler not being the total package(AHHH!) and still getting over because creative worked with them and they made a connection with the audience. The thing with Paul is once those guys left ECW they got exposed like tomorrow, much like NXT, you had a tag team in Public Enemy who were trash in the ring and Paul knew that and instead had them work hardcore matches to hide that. Once they left for WCW it was exposed, Enzo and Cass are getting similar treatment very loved in NXT yet getting trashed on when got to the main roster
|
|
|
Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jun 16, 2017 11:45:48 GMT -5
Depends.
Like original Sin Cara not wanting to learn English etc despite them wanting to make him a featured character? That's all him.
|
|
|
Post by eJm on Jun 16, 2017 11:50:20 GMT -5
For Bayley or Jinder or Nia or whoever to be the next big thing they would need to completely overhaul how WWE's entire "creative" process works. 90% of the roster are dead in the water thanks to scripts ranging from bland to terrible and general apathy from the writers. It's either "Yeah, go have another match", "Here's your promo, say it just like we taught you." or "Got nothing for you this week." Guys that have AJ's workrate, Nakamura's charisma, Roman's push or in Asuka's case all three, will survive. Lesser talents(not an insult, there just has to be a 2nd tier) will wither and die, no chance to recover because there's a long ass line at the door. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}BONUS RANT! Paul E. was great at hiding his guys weaknesses.
I've seen people in the business say that like an insult. Those people are ****ing marks. Paul E. understood you play to your talent's strengths.
Taz looked like a bad motha******. Paul E. asked "Can you back that up with your work?" Taz could so they booked him as a bad motha******. Never once did Joey Styles say "But he's only 5'7!" Why? Cause it's not a real contest. It a show. I don't want to watch Will Ferrell in a drama, I don't want to watch Sami Zayne be an annoying child. I want some comedy and a goddamn likable underdog!
There are some great examples of a wrestler not being the total package(AHHH!) and still getting over because creative worked with them and they made a connection with the audience. The thing with Paul is once those guys left ECW they got exposed like tomorrow, much like NXT, you had a tag team in Public Enemy who were trash in the ring and Paul knew that and instead had them work hardcore matches to hide that. Once they left for WCW it was exposed, Enzo and Cass are getting similar treatment very loved in NXT yet getting trashed on when got to the main roster The only problem with that comparison to me is that, well, these guys aren't jumping from WCW. They're going from WWE to WWE. It's not like they're signing someone whose gimmick worked in another company and have to change it in WWE to suit that show like Johnny B Badd. The big reason for developmental turning the way it has was to have a system producing talent ready for WWE TV that audiences have adapted to so they can make more money in a bigger audience. We shouldn't even be having issues with Enzo and Cass because the main roster creative should be ready for that and aware how to make it work. But they don't and I have no godly reason why. Depends. Like original Sin Cara not wanting to learn English etc despite them wanting to make him a featured character? That's all him. Oh yeah, if you're a dick, you're a dick and that's all on you no matter how talented you are.
|
|
The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,358
Member is Online
|
Post by The Ichi on Jun 16, 2017 14:59:24 GMT -5
I blame neither the wrestlers nor creative. I blame the fans, especially the ones that takes Dave Meltzer thoughts and opinions as gospel. They are also the ones that would and have hijack shows with their "this is awesome" bullshit. Fans arent part of the creation of the shows though. They have nothing to do with the booking. Thats not what the OP asked. For me the blame lies almost completely on creative. I don't think wrestlers have a say anymore in an age where THAT This is Your Life segment happened. And if they do have a say...what the f*** are they doing?
|
|
Sparkybob
King Koopa
I have a status?
Posts: 10,993
|
Post by Sparkybob on Jun 16, 2017 21:56:33 GMT -5
Sometimes people need to learn by failing. Bailey or w/e performing badly can help them improve over time if the WWE is patient with them (big if). Getting first hand experience can be better than just practicing in front of a mirror. It can be shitty TV sure but it's part of the development process of making stars.
On the other hand sometimes wrestler just aren't that good and why protect them so much when you can cycle through another talent to that premium spot? If a certain wrestler is only good in a specific protected role, why not try someone else who can be more versatile.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2017 23:01:19 GMT -5
I'm confused about why 'just happy to be here" is bad. Yeah, your employees should just be happy to be there and to do their jobs! I'd much rather watch a TV show with actors that act and writers that write. Sure, some interplay is okay when an actor has insight on a character... but overall, a place where everyone does their job and is happy about it seems great. The implication is that those "just happy to be here" will just keep their head down and walk on eggshells because they are content simply collecting a WWE paycheck. The biggest stars in wrestling history tend to be very assertive. Actors generally know exactly what their role will be when they get the part. Roles in wrestling are much more fluid so being "just happy to be here" is safe but usually results in a low ceiling.
|
|
Perd
Patti Mayonnaise
Leslie needs to butt out for fear of receiving The Bunghole Buster
Posts: 32,068
Member is Online
|
Post by Perd on Jun 16, 2017 23:07:19 GMT -5
I don't think it's fair to blame Terry Taylor.
|
|
|
Post by Stone Cold Eleanor Shellstrop on Jun 16, 2017 23:22:37 GMT -5
If a wrestler blows a spot, flubs a line, or is an asshole on Twitter, sure, it makes sense to blame them then.
Otherwise, the writers, producers, agents, and bookers are to blame.
|
|
Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 23,731
Member is Online
|
Post by Bo Rida on Jun 17, 2017 5:53:19 GMT -5
Alexa Bliss was told to tone down her facial expressions.
To me that's a microcosm that explains why nearly everything is down to management not wrestlers.
If they water down anything that makes people stand out then what chance has a wrestler got? You can't even make the most of crappy angles and gimmicks.
Then you can expand that to the common complaints, so many similar matches that nothing stands out, heels being neutered or overshadowed by authority figures, faces being passive idiots...
Even Reigns suffered from the way they tried to make him all things to all people.
|
|
schma
Hank Scorpio
Somebody stop him! He's supposed to die!
Posts: 6,950
|
Post by schma on Jun 17, 2017 14:44:11 GMT -5
When I was acting in plays, there'd be the initial stage where you're learning the script, figuring out the beats and the emotions. However, it wasn't until you knew the script well enough that you could put it to the side, that you started to really get into the story and the interactions. It ceased to be a bunch of people reading lines and became characters interacting. When your promos are being written the day off, sometimes while the show is running and you're told to perform it verbatim, there's no time to do any of that. All you can do is quickly memorize and go out there and try to deliver.
What they should be doing is talking a segment over with people, have bullet points of the notes they want to hit and go from there. Not word for word but a guideline.
There's also a lot of people looking down on "just happy to be there" and forgetting that the business today is not the business of 10, 20, 30 years ago. Many of the people in management forget that as well. Yeah the biggest stars were more assertive because they were in the business where you could afford to assert yourself. You assert yourself and Vince doesn't like it? There were other territories, later there was WCW. Call them up, get a new contract and maybe a year or two down the road Vince would be begging you to come back. At one time TNA even seemed like it might one day be a viable competitor (insane I know). Now, yes you can go to the indies but if you want national exposure, there's one game in town. The wrestlers today can't politic the same way a Hogan or a Flair could because the environment is completely different. Not only that, for every successful grabbing of the brass ring, there's probably several Zack Ryders who are put in their place for having the gall to try to rise above it.
The narrative is you're responsible for your success, when really management is the final decider for who gets pushes regardless of what you're doing. How many times did Barrett find something that was working for him only to have it taken away? Owens showed up as an ass kicking prize fighter. With that character he might have had a great universal title run. Instead we got goofy bromance (though that did have moments of brilliance).
Some of this is on the wrestlers but so much is on management and creative. The fact that they told Bayley to go out and defend her lack of using a kendo stick by saying she doesn't want to bruise people? Really? This is wrestling and it's okay even for babyfaces to show aggression. Yes Vince, even if they're women.
|
|
|
Post by angryfan on Jun 17, 2017 17:03:18 GMT -5
Wanted to touch on the "just happy to be here" and "different business" stuff.
Guys, it IS different, but it's not on the most important level. The writers, and to some extent the executives now, see it all as "acting" and "live action movies" and all that, when it's not. You take a guy, put him in a movie and he reads a script, follows the role, and it's fine. Even in a "studio audience" situation, some stuff might flop but, hey, it's about the show, the story itself, not the performer.
Wrestling IS about the performer. It is more large scale improv theater, and always has been.
Take an improv actor, and hand them a script, and they will come off more flat than normal because it's a different environment. You take a stage actor who does nothing but "by the script" and tell them "think on your feet"...and they are screwed too.
The WWE wants to be a TV drama, they want to be a scripted by the numbers show where they can predict the reactions that are to come, where they will be able to say like a sitcom, "this will get a laugh, this will get applause, they will boo at this right here". That's great, but if they're going to bring in a live "audience", many of whom do not accept that they are supposed to react according to a plan, then they will have the issue of blowback.
|
|
sfvega
Grimlock
Posts: 13,722
Member is Online
|
Post by sfvega on Jun 17, 2017 17:25:04 GMT -5
The talent is all there. This is as talented a roster since probably 98 WCW. You look at all these guys who people wanted to see for years in WWE. You look at how many of them had good NXT runs. And now? I couldn't tell you more than a handful of actual storylines (not feuds) from either big show the last 2 years. Raw is too long. The writers suck. Vince cuts the balls off of most of these people who came up actually learning about pro wrestling and promos and tells them to hit their mark, say their lines, and don't look into the camera. You're taking a lot of the elements of great past pro wrestling and pushing it away, and making these guys (and gals) into D list actors. They don't care, the writers care even less somehow, I don't care, you don't care. It's all bad. They can't keep a lot of guys apart and end up giving away what could be dream matches on Raw all the time, then have them face off so many times that nobody cares. AJ/Cena is great, Rollins/Ambrose is great, Zayn/Owens is great, and it just almost doesn't even mean anything.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2017 18:52:09 GMT -5
While the writing is terrible a major problem is nxt isn't really training people to be stars on the main roster it's too busy trying to be a super indy then the talent gets on the main roster and it's a whole different world and their learning and most of the time failing on live tv infront of millions of viewers and that can be a confidence killer especially for the younger talent.A lot of the talent lacks the guts to turn down dumb ideas and plus their obsessed with great work rate not realizing that there's more to the wwe than that.Its a horrible combination of crap.
|
|
|
Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jun 17, 2017 22:52:57 GMT -5
Wanted to touch on the "just happy to be here" and "different business" stuff. Guys, it IS different, but it's not on the most important level. The writers, and to some extent the executives now, see it all as "acting" and "live action movies" and all that, when it's not. You take a guy, put him in a movie and he reads a script, follows the role, and it's fine. Even in a "studio audience" situation, some stuff might flop but, hey, it's about the show, the story itself, not the performer. Wrestling IS about the performer. It is more large scale improv theater, and always has been. Take an improv actor, and hand them a script, and they will come off more flat than normal because it's a different environment. You take a stage actor who does nothing but "by the script" and tell them "think on your feet"...and they are screwed too. The WWE wants to be a TV drama, they want to be a scripted by the numbers show where they can predict the reactions that are to come, where they will be able to say like a sitcom, "this will get a laugh, this will get applause, they will boo at this right here". That's great, but if they're going to bring in a live "audience", many of whom do not accept that they are supposed to react according to a plan, then they will have the issue of blowback. Wrestlers don't have to be improv actors, though... Randy Savage had a kabillion awesome matches, and he didn't like to improv. Honestly, does anyone out there think planned out matches are worse, on average, than ad-libbed ones? Sure, every live actor needs to be able to roll with something unexpected, but that's not the same thing as "it'll look lifeless unless you wing it." (Your complaint that improv actors necessarily stilted when given lines is confusing; every improv actor I know is also a traditional actor, and if they sound flat with lines it's because they're bad actors.) Wrestling is only about the performer because people have decided it's about the performer. It SHOULDN'T be about the performer: that's a way to excuse paying your talent less and keeping them from joining SAG. You tell them "Sink or swim!" and hey, cool, now if they don't "get over" then you can feel okay about firing them. It makes your talent expendable and cheap, because you don't have to have a plan when you hire them.... or any other time, for that matter. The big thing I think you're leaving out is WHY the fans so often rebel. It's not just because they dislike Reigns; it's because they know that Reigns the real-life actor is enjoying rewards that their favorite wrestlers aren't! Fans don't TRUST the bookers; they know the bookers are unfair, and the consequences go beyond the story being told. If we want to help, say, FaBreeze to have job security (and help them get merch sales and bonuses) then we know we have to go to the shows and react to them. Even though "Hey, somebody's gotta be a jobber!" there's serious consequences to being a jobber. (It's a little better now, but they used to have yearly events we called "spring cleaning" where they just dumped a fifth of the roster.) The problem is this stupid hybrid they have: "We're a pure meritocracy where if you thrive, it's because you deserve it; also Roman Reigns is the star no matter what!"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2017 2:56:53 GMT -5
They have the talent capable but they give them nothing useful to work with. They did a terrible job with Bray Wyatt as an example. His character with the Wyatt Family could have been much more interesting but they was given nothing creative to work with, these guys can only do so much with the crappy material they get. You could have had him brainwash a few members of the roster and plan to oust The Authority. Something more than just him coming to the ring rambling on about nonsense. How can you expect people to get over when they are given nothing interesting to say or do.
|
|
knightboat
Unicron
The Snake Roberts Ruined My Wedding
Posts: 2,720
|
Post by knightboat on Jun 19, 2017 3:09:41 GMT -5
It's 99% the bookers and creative. Look at the Fashion Police, how long have Fandango and Breeze been on the main roster? Years. Years and they couldn't find anything for two talented, charismatic wrestlers to do. They finally put them in a comedy blow off angle and what do you know? Those talented charismatic wrestlers made it shine. Look at Apollo Crews, they're finally doing something with him, but he's a guy who looks amazing and can absolutely go in the ring so they book him like complete crap and are surprised that he doesn't get over. One more example, back in NXT when Joe was murking everyone to get his title shot, Blake and Murphy were fighting each other in the main event. I was extremely not excited for the match, but they actually pulled me in and both of those guys can really go. Don't book wrestlers so the fans don't care about them and then be surprised when the fans don't care about them.
Edit: Also, more backstage segments. If people suck at cutting a live promo, give them a backstage segment. It's not that hard.
|
|