Chiral
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Post by Chiral on Jan 14, 2018 20:40:04 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2018 21:01:46 GMT -5
The idea that there's just rampant false accusations thrown out to try and get some benefit from it is a little weird. Generally, there's not much 'benefit' resulting from making an accusation, and in fact things are generally way more unpleasant for an accuser to the point that even if they were making stuff up, you wonder why they'd bother. Are there some cases where someone makes up an allegation for some financial gain or other benefit? Sure; there have been cases of that. But the percentage is so minor vs real assaults, unreported assaults, and cases where the accuser gets dragged through the mud for making an allegation that the 'FREE MONEY' thing just comes off as really, really goofy and tone deaf. But you can’t unring the bell. Ever. I heard years ago already if Wayne Gretzky were on an elevator alone and a woman got on with him, he’d just leave. No idea if it’s true, but the logic is, he didn’t need the hassle. Now that the pendulum has swung to “believe everyone and all accused must go away forever” the backlash when this dies down is going to be severe and we could wind up worse than where we started. There’s tons of things at play here. It depends who’s being accused, people dismissed or justified the Stan Lee accusations immediately, this one is being met with mostly “not surprised”. If drunken, ill advised, uncomfortable sex is wrong now the list of sexual predators is going to include almost everybody. I believe this girls story. We need to be extra careful to sort out sexual predators from buyers remorse. That's pretty much it. Any person over the age of 25, that drinks and has had a few dates, has been in similar situations. Is Aziz guilty of being creepy and taking advantage of his fame? Perhaps. But when you start calling everything "assault" or "rape" the words start losing their meaning. It's insulting to real victims.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by FinalGwen on Jan 14, 2018 21:30:12 GMT -5
So I feel like this really needs to be said. Consent is not a tickbox that you check off as soon as someone comes into your home.
Consent is a constant process that's required throughout a sexual encounter. If someone is telling you "no", or to stop, and you ignore this then yes, it is assault and not a simple misunderstanding. (The only exception being thate both parties have mutually agreed and established that they are fine with things continuing if they say those words and have established a more specific safeword, in which case that then becomes the bar for their consent and must be similarly respected.)
I have been in a situation where in the middle of sexual contact, my partner at the time asked if we could stop. So... We did. We talked about what she was and wasn't comfortable with, and nothing sexual happened after that on that night. It really is that simple.
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Post by abjordans on Jan 14, 2018 21:55:44 GMT -5
Him forcing his hand down her pants, and constantly asking for a a blowjob is not "a date ended badly" That's a 10/10 point if he didn't then apparently receive one right after asking. This is a very unfortunate situation, Aziz is obviously at fault for this. I wouldn't put him with the likes of Weinstein unless he knew what power he had over her, because that seems to me to be the reason she didn't just simply say "No" because he was this famous guy. Sounded like he received a few blow jobs throughout the night. Look, these allegations should all be taken seriously, but this one is pretty shaky to me. Why didn’t she just leave? Sounds like awkward sex, not sexual abuse.
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Kyn
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Post by Kyn on Jan 14, 2018 21:59:41 GMT -5
That's pretty much it. Any person over the age of 25, that drinks and has had a few dates, has been in similar situations. Is Aziz guilty of being creepy and taking advantage of his fame? Perhaps. But when you start calling everything "assault" or "rape" the words start losing their meaning. It's insulting to real victims. That's pretty shaky ground. Who gets to determine who's a 'real victim'?
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Post by Shy Guy on Jan 14, 2018 22:01:02 GMT -5
That's pretty much it. Any person over the age of 25, that drinks and has had a few dates, has been in similar situations. Is Aziz guilty of being creepy and taking advantage of his fame? Perhaps. But when you start calling everything "assault" or "rape" the words start losing their meaning. It's insulting to real victims. That's pretty shaky ground. Who gets to determine who's a 'real victim'? I also would like a clear definition of "real victim"
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Post by eJm on Jan 14, 2018 22:02:01 GMT -5
That's a 10/10 point if he didn't then apparently receive one right after asking. This is a very unfortunate situation, Aziz is obviously at fault for this. I wouldn't put him with the likes of Weinstein unless he knew what power he had over her, because that seems to me to be the reason she didn't just simply say "No" because he was this famous guy. Sounded like he received a few blow jobs throughout the night. Look, these allegations should all be taken seriously, but this one is pretty shaky to me. Why didn’t she just leave? Sounds like awkward sex, not sexual abuse. Maybe take into consideration, especially from the stories others have said over social media recently, that she might have had to do that to get out of the house in the first place? Like she was so used to hearing or being in situations like this the only way she felt it could be dealt with to stop being manipulated was to do the sexual act so she could leave? Sounds drastic, yeah, but these experience seem to happen to more people than we’re aware of.
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Post by The Last Hero on Jan 14, 2018 22:04:53 GMT -5
So I feel like this really needs to be said. Consent is not a tickbox that you check off as soon as someone comes into your home.Consent is a constant process that's required throughout a sexual encounter. If someone is telling you "no", or to stop, and you ignore this then yes, it is assault and not a simple misunderstanding. (The only exception being thate both parties have mutually agreed and established that they are fine with things continuing if they say those words and have established a more specific safeword, in which case that then becomes the bar for their consent and must be similarly respected.) I have been in a situation where in the middle of sexual contact, my partner at the time asked if we could stop. So... We did. We talked about what she was and wasn't comfortable with, and nothing sexual happened after that on that night. It really is that simple. Then the question becomes; Is ‘Whoa, let’s relax for a sec, let’s chill.’” enough. I honestly think so, and I know I would have stopped after hearing that and actually ASKED to continue. I could see why some people might not agree with that though after reading everything. My other point I made earlier is; I don't think things would have progressed from her end after that if he wasn't famous. I wonder if he knew at the time how his fame helped coerce her into proceeding.
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Post by abjordans on Jan 14, 2018 22:08:09 GMT -5
Sounded like he received a few blow jobs throughout the night. Look, these allegations should all be taken seriously, but this one is pretty shaky to me. Why didn’t she just leave? Sounds like awkward sex, not sexual abuse. Maybe take into consideration, especially from the stories others have said over social media recently, that she might have had to do that to get out of the house in the first place? Like she was so used to hearing or being in situations like this the only way she felt it could be dealt with to stop being manipulated was to do the sexual act so she could leave? Sounds drastic, yeah, but these experience seem to happen to more people than we’re aware of. Is it wrong to say if you aren’t intending to hook up with someone, don’t go home with them after a night of drinking? She knew Aziz was going to want to have sex with her. There has to be some accountability for yourself too.
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FinalGwen
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Post by FinalGwen on Jan 14, 2018 22:12:29 GMT -5
Maybe take into consideration, especially from the stories others have said over social media recently, that she might have had to do that to get out of the house in the first place? Like she was so used to hearing or being in situations like this the only way she felt it could be dealt with to stop being manipulated was to do the sexual act so she could leave? Sounds drastic, yeah, but these experience seem to happen to more people than we’re aware of. Is it wrong to say if you aren’t intending to hook up with someone, don’t go home with them after a night of drinking? She knew Aziz was going to want to have sex with her. There has to be some accountability for yourself too. Yes, this is wrong to say. Incredibly wrong.
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Post by Shy Guy on Jan 14, 2018 22:17:04 GMT -5
Maybe take into consideration, especially from the stories others have said over social media recently, that she might have had to do that to get out of the house in the first place? Like she was so used to hearing or being in situations like this the only way she felt it could be dealt with to stop being manipulated was to do the sexual act so she could leave? Sounds drastic, yeah, but these experience seem to happen to more people than we’re aware of. Is it wrong to say if you aren’t intending to hook up with someone, don’t go home with them after a night of drinking? She knew Aziz was going to want to have sex with her. There has to be some accountability for yourself too. Did she know though? You can't just assume shit like that
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Post by abjordans on Jan 14, 2018 22:17:26 GMT -5
Is it wrong to say if you aren’t intending to hook up with someone, don’t go home with them after a night of drinking? She knew Aziz was going to want to have sex with her. There has to be some accountability for yourself too. Yes, this is wrong to say. Incredibly wrong. Why though? They just met. She could have easily said thanks for dinner, I had a nice time, but I am heading home. Especially when drinking is involved, if you go home with someone, you are sending a mixed signal, and putting yourself in a vulnerable situation.
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Kyn
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Post by Kyn on Jan 14, 2018 22:19:53 GMT -5
Is it wrong to say if you aren’t intending to hook up with someone, don’t go home with them after a night of drinking? She knew Aziz was going to want to have sex with her. There has to be some accountability for yourself too. Personal responsibility is a thing, but saying she 'knew' he'd want sex isn't necessarily true. Or is that literally the only reason men spend time with women, because they want to f*** them? (And even if she did 'know', walking through a doorway doesn't equal consent. Does the expectation of sex give someone the right to force the issue if the other party doesn't want to?)
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Post by The Last Hero on Jan 14, 2018 22:20:09 GMT -5
Is it wrong to say if you aren’t intending to hook up with someone, don’t go home with them after a night of drinking? She knew Aziz was going to want to have sex with her. There has to be some accountability for yourself too. Yes, this is wrong to say. Incredibly wrong. Is it though? Really? If you were talking to a friend and he/she said so I met this person at a bar and then went home with them...what would you assume happened? They went and played board games? I understand what you are saying 100% AND IT SHOULD NOT MEAN CONSENT, but is that the actual reality? I think you'll find a lot of people who disagree. Maybe I'm being too devils advocate/contrarian right now I don't know.
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Jan 14, 2018 22:20:34 GMT -5
Maybe take into consideration, especially from the stories others have said over social media recently, that she might have had to do that to get out of the house in the first place? Like she was so used to hearing or being in situations like this the only way she felt it could be dealt with to stop being manipulated was to do the sexual act so she could leave? Sounds drastic, yeah, but these experience seem to happen to more people than we’re aware of. Is it wrong to say if you aren’t intending to hook up with someone, don’t go home with them after a night of drinking? She knew Aziz was going to want to have sex with her. There has to be some accountability for yourself too. If she was f***ed up enough, then I could see her not being all there, and him essentially pulling a Cosby and taking full advantage of her. But she stated she felt uncomfortable the second it started...before the rest of the night ensued. I'm trying to imagine if I was this girls father and I'd clearly wanna beat the shit out of the guy, but I'd be slightly upset and bewildered at her as to why she didn't leave from the beginning when she told him to chill, and said she herself felt uncomfortable. Maybe age comes into play, if shes young and naive enough, I don't remember if the article stated her age.
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Post by abjordans on Jan 14, 2018 22:25:49 GMT -5
Is it wrong to say if you aren’t intending to hook up with someone, don’t go home with them after a night of drinking? She knew Aziz was going to want to have sex with her. There has to be some accountability for yourself too. If she was f***ed up enough, then I could see her not being all there, and him essentially pulling a Cosby and taking full advantage of her. But she stated she felt uncomfortable the second it started...before the rest of the night ensued. I'm trying to imagine if I was this girls father and I'd clearly wanna beat the shit out of the guy, but I'd be slightly upset and bewildered at her as to why she didn't leave from the beginning when she told him to chill, and said she herself felt uncomfrotable. Maybe age comes into play, if shes young and naive enough, I don't remember if the article stated her age. She was 22. And I am not trying to stereotype, but a 22 year old girl living in Brooklyn, with the kind of lifestyle that gets her into parties to mingle with Aziz Ansari and stars like that, knew exactly what this guy thought was going to happen when they got back to his place. There are a lot of clues in the article- she got up on the kitchen counter, she said “we put our clothes back on”, “I performed oral sex again”, to me it is not that hard to think that Ansari did not feel like this was a girl who was not a willing participant.
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Post by Pooh Carlson on Jan 14, 2018 22:26:04 GMT -5
Yes, this is wrong to say. Incredibly wrong. Why though? They just met. She could have easily said thanks for dinner, I had a nice time, but I am heading home. Especially when drinking is involved, if you go home with someone, you are sending a mixed signal, and putting yourself in a vulnerable situation. They began the night drinking, go out for oysters, and go straight back to his apartment. What does she think he wants to do? I know this will sound like victim blaming, but use common sense. And if you want to leave, leave. Aziz Ansari isn't a big, imposing guy, and it's not like she's famous to fear him harming her career.
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FinalGwen
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Post by FinalGwen on Jan 14, 2018 22:26:35 GMT -5
Yes, this is wrong to say. Incredibly wrong. Why though? They just met. She could have easily said thanks for dinner, I had a nice time, but I am heading home. Especially when drinking is involved, if you go home with someone, you are sending a mixed signal, and putting yourself in a vulnerable situation. Because entering someone's house, whether after drinking or not, does not give them implicit permission to have sex with you. This isn't some kind of f***ed up vampire contract. This is the worst kind of victim blaming. You might want to go back to someone's house to watch stuff together, to keep partying and chatting, to make out a bunch, or hell, to do specific kinds of sexual acts but not others on that night. (In this specific case, beyond your blanket statement, she even says how she said that maybe certain things could wait until a second date, but that was not respected.)
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Post by Shy Guy on Jan 14, 2018 22:29:00 GMT -5
Is it wrong to say if you aren’t intending to hook up with someone, don’t go home with them after a night of drinking? She knew Aziz was going to want to have sex with her. There has to be some accountability for yourself too. If she was f***ed up enough, then I could see her not being all there, and him essentially pulling a Cosby and taking full advantage of her. But she stated she felt uncomfortable the second it started...before the rest of the night ensued. I'm trying to imagine if I was this girls father and I'd clearly wanna beat the shit out of the guy, but I'd be slightly upset and bewildered at her as to why she didn't leave from the beginning when she told him to chill, and said she herself felt uncomfortable. Maybe age comes into play, if shes young and naive enough, I don't remember if the article stated her age. So a part of you would victim blame your own daughter?
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Post by abjordans on Jan 14, 2018 22:31:02 GMT -5
Why though? They just met. She could have easily said thanks for dinner, I had a nice time, but I am heading home. Especially when drinking is involved, if you go home with someone, you are sending a mixed signal, and putting yourself in a vulnerable situation. Because entering someone's house, whether after drinking or not, does not give them implicit permission to have sex with you. This isn't some kind of f***ed up vampire contract. This is the worst kind of victim blaming. You might want to go back to someone's house to watch stuff together, to keep partying and chatting, to make out a bunch, or hell, to do specific kinds of sexual acts but not others on that night. (In this specific case, beyond your blanket statement, she even says how she said that maybe certain things could wait until a second date, but that was not respected.) So... Why when Ansari showed that as long as she stayed there, he was going to try to initiate sex, did she not just leave? It isn’t like he was forcing her to stay, he was just doing shitty drunk sex moves. Just leave.
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