Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Apr 4, 2018 11:17:33 GMT -5
Why even bring the pride flag to a wrestling event? Was there an open homosexual on the card to support? I've seen a lot of posts in this thread saying they use wrestling as an escape. It seems like bringing the pride flag out to a public event like this (where not everyone is supportive of the lifestyle) could cause a situation like we had with The Briscoe's. You could say that about any flag though, most WWE crowds seem to have a few flags when there are no wrestlers from those countries. If people want to bring a flag, they can bring a flag.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Apr 4, 2018 15:34:20 GMT -5
"Its hard to be a heel these days!"
Good, it should be. We might get this creativity thing I've heard about before.
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Apr 4, 2018 16:48:13 GMT -5
"Its hard to be a heel these days!" Good, it should be. We might get this creativity thing I've heard about before. When people say that to me I just say "have you tried working the leg?" Seriously, all it takes to be a good heel is to cheat.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Apr 4, 2018 16:55:43 GMT -5
"Its hard to be a heel these days!" Good, it should be. We might get this creativity thing I've heard about before. Between this and that idiot guy spitting at a kid, priorities need to be arranged when heeling because if this is the best they can do that's a problem
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Post by eJm on Apr 4, 2018 16:57:22 GMT -5
"Its hard to be a heel these days!" Good, it should be. We might get this creativity thing I've heard about before. I mean, maybe there was a bunch of bees outside the venue I was at, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone booed like Zack Gibson was booed the other night at OTT. He didn't say anything discriminatory either so yeah, must have been bees.
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Gus Richlen Was Wrong
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Post by Gus Richlen Was Wrong on Apr 4, 2018 17:53:03 GMT -5
So was I the only one who actually accepted his apology from a few years ago? Obviously, I feel like a moron now, but I had been hopeful that he'd learned his lesson.
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Post by HMARK Center on Apr 4, 2018 17:58:10 GMT -5
So was I the only one who actually accepted his apology from a few years ago? Obviously, I feel like a moron now, but I had been hopeful that he'd learned his lesson. I was hopeful, too, and it's possible he was legit about some of it, but it doesn't change that this was at best a dumb idea on his part, whatever his actual current personal feelings are.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
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Post by chazraps on Apr 4, 2018 19:34:16 GMT -5
Why even bring the pride flag to a wrestling event? Was there an open homosexual on the card to support? I've seen a lot of posts in this thread saying they use wrestling as an escape. It seems like bringing the pride flag out to a public event like this (where not everyone is supportive of the lifestyle) could cause a situation like we had with The Briscoe's. Why bring any flag to a wrestling event? It's representation. It's inclusivity. It's pride. Let's not victim blame here.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Apr 4, 2018 19:40:03 GMT -5
So was I the only one who actually accepted his apology from a few years ago? Obviously, I feel like a moron now, but I had been hopeful that he'd learned his lesson. For me, the tweets a few years ago took the wind right out of my wrestling sails and I didn't watch any of it for like seven months. I was in Hammerstein when Jay had won the ROH title, and it was one of my all time moments as a fan. Then he made those tweets, and it just completely soured what had quickly become a treasured memory, and just drove me away. About 18 months after the apology I revisited it, and it actually was better than I remember it. His directly quoting the tweets sent to him that got to him and talking about how he didn't want to be someone who preached hate in their house was light years better than how most wrestler apologies tend to go (he avoided the red flag of "I'm sorry if you were offended") and the fact that he in no way mentioned it in reference or acknowledged it in any form or light for four or so years at least opened the possibility that he may have grown from it. The flag incident completely undoes it.
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Post by HMARK Center on Apr 4, 2018 20:44:01 GMT -5
So was I the only one who actually accepted his apology from a few years ago? Obviously, I feel like a moron now, but I had been hopeful that he'd learned his lesson. For me, the tweets a few years ago took the wind right out of my wrestling sails and I didn't watch any of it for like seven months. I was in Hammerstein when Jay had won the ROH title, and it was one of my all time moments as a fan. Then he made those tweets, and it just completely soured what had quickly become a treasured memory, and just drove me away. About 18 months after the apology I revisited it, and it actually was better than I remember it. His directly quoting the tweets sent to him that got to him and talking about how he didn't want to be someone who preached hate in their house was light years better than how most wrestler apologies tend to go (he avoided the red flag of "I'm sorry if you were offended") and the fact that he in no way mentioned it in reference or acknowledged it in any form or light for four or so years at least opened the possibility that he may have grown from it. The flag incident completely undoes it. I'm choosing to hold out a bit of hope that his previous apology is still relevant, and that what they did here was more a case of ignorance concerning what would and would not work as proper heel heat instead of outright malicious intent...but I'm also a straight guy who didn't see the actual incident, so I can't say what it looked like in person nor can I justifiably say that my own feelings are of the utmost importance, here. Basically, I hope that Jay made a sincere attempt not to inculcate hateful values in his kids and tried to make at least a decent improvement on his real life hangups, and that what happened here was a matter of stupid rather than intolerant behavior. I hope for that, because the alternative is really saddening (not to mention enraging) to consider.
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Post by KobashiChop on Apr 5, 2018 12:11:57 GMT -5
Another thing that isn't mentioned with the "but WWE or TNA could do something like this" argument is...indy wrestling is far closer to an exhibition than an overarching story. Wrestling storylines, at its core, has morality plays. If there is a storyline in WWE or TNA, on paper, it's the same problem there. You can get away with more extreme, more problematic viewpoints in a storyline... AS LONG AS THE PERSON WHO DOES IT LOSES IN THE END. That's the reason for problems like Booker T/HHH and Jinder/Nakamura: It's less that the heel who did it DID these actions for cheap heat, but rather THE HEEL WHO DID THOSE THINGS WON IN THE END. The heel was racist to the babyface, and the racist WON. They got the victory, and proved that their viewpoint was "right". (By contrast, if for example, Nia Jax destroys Alexa Bliss at Wrestlemania, Alexa Bliss fatshaming Nia Jax would be "okay" in this aspect, because the fatshamer would have lost miserably and showed people the moral that what she did was bad, and losing big to Nia was her punishment for it.) Indy wrestling, on the other hand, is less a morality play and more an exhibition for it...and that's the whole problem. The Briscoes using a Pride flag to choke someone out is not part of a morality play. We're not going to see someone like Jack Sexsmith rise to the occasion and beat the crap out of the Briscoes to show them that homophobia is wrong, because indy wrestling is more of an exhibition...and that's a bad thing. By exhibiting the in-ring work of the Briscoes, you're inherently saying "We stand by them as performers". They're allowed to "win" not by the win or loss, but by getting bookings for their talent that say "we stand by what these people say or do", both by the promotions and the people watching to see the Briscoes. That's the biggest difference- the Briscoes being homophobes will not be part of a morality play where they get destroyed in the end for their homophobia, it's just...two homophobic jerks being jerks. This is an excellent point in all of this. Wrestling is fiction, and you have to have the villain eventually get his or her comeuppance or they at least need to see the error of their ways. I have no problem with heels doing things that are classless and disgusting. Racism, sexism, homophobia etc. IF THEY GET THEIR COMEUPPANCE. If someone had wrapped the Pride Flag around their fist with a knuckle duster underneath, scored the win and raised the flag in celebration afterwards, that serves as the heels actually getting what they deserve. It's like TV shows, there are so many despicable shitbags on TV. Rapists, murderers, drug dealers, but they're supposed get imprisoned, or killed etc. If they just get away with it, then it's just shitty TV. And yeah, it doesn't help that the Briscoes are inbred shitbags in their own right.
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Post by lemonyellowson on Apr 6, 2018 12:03:25 GMT -5
How is using a pride flag to choke someone homophobic?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2018 12:31:50 GMT -5
How is using a pride flag to choke someone homophobic? A known (and aggressively so) homophobe goes into the crowd, takes the pride flag without permission and uses it to choke someone. As has been mentioned throughout the thread, it was done in a region with a very good record as regards equality in this area, was not part of an angle, it was just in isolation. The character is not homophobic so again as mentioned, it's not like a foreign heel grabbing a national flag. It is a known homophobe choosing to use the symbol of a group who have been violently oppressed over the years.
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Post by lemonyellowson on Apr 6, 2018 14:48:21 GMT -5
How is using a pride flag to choke someone homophobic? A known (and aggressively so) homophobe goes into the crowd, takes the pride flag without permission and uses it to choke someone. As has been mentioned throughout the thread, it was done in a region with a very good record as regards equality in this area, was not part of an angle, it was just in isolation. The character is not homophobic so again as mentioned, it's not like a foreign heel grabbing a national flag. It is a known homophobe choosing to use the symbol of a group who have been violently oppressed over the years. Yeah I can see how people have come to that conclusion based on previous from the dude. However, are people saying that nobody could choke a dude out with a pride flag without it being homophobic?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2018 14:57:28 GMT -5
A known (and aggressively so) homophobe goes into the crowd, takes the pride flag without permission and uses it to choke someone. As has been mentioned throughout the thread, it was done in a region with a very good record as regards equality in this area, was not part of an angle, it was just in isolation. The character is not homophobic so again as mentioned, it's not like a foreign heel grabbing a national flag. It is a known homophobe choosing to use the symbol of a group who have been violently oppressed over the years. Yeah I can see how people have come to that conclusion based on previous from the dude. However, are people saying that nobody could choke a dude out with a pride flag without it being homophobic? All things depend on context but I'd be hard pressed to think of a context where this is necessary. I think in most circumstances it's a safer bet to err on the side of not choking someone with a pride flag.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,179
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Apr 6, 2018 15:20:01 GMT -5
Yeah I can see how people have come to that conclusion based on previous from the dude. However, are people saying that nobody could choke a dude out with a pride flag without it being homophobic? All things depend on context but I'd be hard pressed to think of a context where this is necessary. I think in most circumstances it's a safer bet to err on the side of not choking someone with a pride flag. There are a couple I'd say. 1: Gay wrestler does it. 2: Homophobic wrestler does it, then loses, winner cuts a promo saying their kind of homophobic crap won't be tolerated, winner waves the flag proudly etc.
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Apr 7, 2018 1:03:53 GMT -5
"Its hard to be a heel these days!" Good, it should be. We might get this creativity thing I've heard about before. When people say that to me I just say "have you tried working the leg?" Seriously, all it takes to be a good heel is to cheat. Except this is a culture where people cheat
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Apr 7, 2018 1:36:32 GMT -5
"Its hard to be a heel these days!" Good, it should be. We might get this creativity thing I've heard about before. When people say that to me I just say "have you tried working the leg?" Seriously, all it takes to be a good heel is to cheat. But we are in a society where people cheat in varying degrees. Just cheating to an audience that may have committed anything from a little, white lie to cheating to be hurtful. Don Draper and Walter White cheated all the time but aren’t entirely painted as unsympathetic. How do you get heat in that environment?
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,179
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Apr 7, 2018 2:26:01 GMT -5
When people say that to me I just say "have you tried working the leg?" Seriously, all it takes to be a good heel is to cheat. But we are in a society where people cheat in varying degrees. Just cheating to an audience that may have committed anything from a little, white lie to cheating to be hurtful. Don Draper and Walter White cheated all the time but aren’t entirely painted as unsympathetic. How do you get heat in that environment? Kick a guy in the nuts behind the ref's back. Pretty universal. Bringing up Walter White, well he started out sympathetic, he was driven to the acts he did and it was up to the viewer to decide when he went too far, but he always had some kind of provocation or justification. It's how Hulk Hogan could cheat all the time, the other guy did it first, so it was fair. The Miz is one of the biggest heels in wrestling, does he do anything offensive? No, he's a cocky, slimy little weasel. Andrade Almas is a great heel through cheating and sneak attacks. Is society a bit morally grey? Yeah but there's still plenty of was to portray someone as being bad without bigotry.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
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Post by chazraps on Apr 7, 2018 3:04:51 GMT -5
When people say that to me I just say "have you tried working the leg?" Seriously, all it takes to be a good heel is to cheat. But we are in a society where people cheat in varying degrees. Just cheating to an audience that may have committed anything from a little, white lie to cheating to be hurtful. Don Draper and Walter White cheated all the time but aren’t entirely painted as unsympathetic. How do you get heat in that environment? Walter White is unsympathetic. What show were you watching?
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