Do heels HAVE to be offensive to be good?

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

I personally say no. I was thinking about a lot of the discussions we’ve had about heels who cross a line with audiences, and how so many heels through wrestling were fantastic at getting heat without going into territory that legitimately bothers audiences. Like the way that the Briscoes got heat from screwing with a fan’s Pride Flag, or the nazi salute JBL did in Germany.

To me, certain things are just Cheap Heat that doesn’t register that well with audiences. Real, genuine heat is when fans are pissed at a heel wrestler, but they’re still having fun. Even if you can’t STAND a heel, I still think said heel should still be entertaining. Same with any character on a wrestling show.

And it’s not like I’m asking for modern heels to have their bite removed. I think what Chris Jericho is doing with the Alpha character currently is amazing, and it’s simple, old school heeling. There’s no political or social stuff to wade through in his segments. He just goes out there, beats people’s asses and bloodies them, calls them “f***faces”. It’s unsettling, and kind of uncomfortable, but in spite of that Jericho is still a fun, entertaining character to watch, and as a viewer I love to hate him and root for Omega and Naito to get their revenge.

It’s the same with heels like Minoru Suzuki. There’s no attempt at social commentary or pushing anyone’s buttons over issues outside of wrestling. He’s just a sadistic, violent man who thinks he’s the king of wrestling, so he beats people with chairs and attacks Young Boys, and it’s great. Or people like Big Van Vader, the Four Horseman back in the day. Heck, for all of the questionable segments Vince McMahon has produced, his biggest source of heel heat ever was simply him playing a crooked boss.

Compare that to the bomb of a promo that Jinder cut on Shinsuke last year. If a group of fans, the paying consumers are telling a promotion “that’s too far”, then yeah, that’s too far. I don’t think audiences today want wimpy, neutered heels, they want effective ones that they can boo and still enjoy. But the heat has to be the kind of heat that won’t alienate audiences.
I personally think Triple H is one of the all time great WWE heels, but there’s good reasons as to why the Booker T angle is regarded as one of his lowest points.

TL, DR: I just think there’s a wide variety of ways to get good heat from wrestling crowds that won’t make them for-real upset. If they’re upset legit, that’s lost revenue, IMO. It’s about dat paper.

[OVO 40 hunched over like he 80]

I think they need to be offensive but without falling for cheap heat. I think their goal is to piss us off so we tune in hoping they get their asses kicked.

In my opinion you can be offensive but you need to deliver a great promo to justify it, like Dr D's promo about Hulk Hogan and San Francisco or Ron Fuller's I'm not gonna do the Von Erich thing.

[Allie Kitsune]

Sort of.

They don't necessarily need to be pro-actively "somebody round up a Twitter Mob" offensive, but they DO need to _NOT_ be "Down with The Cause".

[Deleted]

It is not necesarry at all.

LU is fantastic at doing this with all of their heels while all of them have very different motivations that range from just simple Douchebag Vanity(Mundo) to a ninja skeleton who just lives to break every arm he sees(Pentagon) but none have had to fall into the be offensive to gain heat trope.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

May 29, 2018 9:25:33 GMT -5 Allie Kitsune said:

Sort of.

They don't necessarily need to be pro-actively "somebody round up a Twitter Mob" offensive, but they DO need to _NOT_ be "Down with The Cause".

But Alpha Jericho isn't down with any "cause". He's just a vicious badass. That's all I really I want out of my heels.

[chronocross]

I think so, I grew up with watching Ted DiBiase as one of the top heels in WWF doing all sorts of demeaning and offensive things to people and always wanted to see guys like Hogan or Jake beat him down.

[Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)]

May 29, 2018 9:38:13 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

May 29, 2018 9:25:33 GMT -5 Allie Kitsune said:

Sort of.

They don't necessarily need to be pro-actively "somebody round up a Twitter Mob" offensive, but they DO need to _NOT_ be "Down with The Cause".

But Alpha Jericho isn't down with any "cause". He's just a vicious badass. That's all I really I want out of my heels.

Not every heel can be a bad ass tho nor should they. You do have to be so what offensive but that doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing.

His vulgar language can be offensive to people. Naito was spitting on people which is very offensive. You don’t have to be political or go into stereotypes but there has to be something you do that’s demeaning to your opponent that people want you to get your comeuppance

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

May 29, 2018 9:43:15 GMT -5 chronocross said:

I think so, I grew up with watching Ted DiBiase as one of the top heels in WWF doing all sorts of demeaning and offensive things to people and always wanted to see guys like Hogan or Jake beat him down.

I don't consider heels like Dibiase "offensive". He was fantastic and I think he'd get over in any era. That's not what I'm talking about. My original post is referring to characters like the original Goldust, or Racist HHH vs. Booker, or Muhammad Hassan.

[Allie Kitsune]

May 29, 2018 9:51:55 GMT -5 Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) said:

May 29, 2018 9:38:13 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

But Alpha Jericho isn't down with any "cause". He's just a vicious badass. That's all I really I want out of my heels.

Not every heel can be a bad ass tho nor should they. You do have to be so what offensive but that doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing.

His vulgar language can be offensive to people. Naito was spitting on people which is very offensive. You don’t have to be political or go into stereotypes but there has to be something you do that’s demeaning to your opponent that people want you to get your comeuppance

Jericho was pretty much doing the typical "Evil Foreigner" act during the Kenny feud, with a lot of "F*** Japan, F*** the Japanese Reporters" stuff in those "press conference" style promos.

[chronocross]

May 29, 2018 9:52:19 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

May 29, 2018 9:43:15 GMT -5 chronocross said:

I think so, I grew up with watching Ted DiBiase as one of the top heels in WWF doing all sorts of demeaning and offensive things to people and always wanted to see guys like Hogan or Jake beat him down.

I don't consider heels like Dibiase "offensive". He was fantastic and I think he'd get over in any era. That's not what I'm talking about. My original post is referring to characters like the original Goldust, or Racist HHH vs. Booker, or Muhammad Hassan.

To me it wasn't offensive either and enjoyed his gimmick, I don't know if he'd be able to do the stuff he did without WWE having to backtack and apologize with things like having people kiss his sweaty feet but to each their own.

As for guys like Trips in 03 or the original Goldust, I don't mind seeing it as long as the heel gets his comeuppance in the end.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

May 29, 2018 9:56:26 GMT -5 chronocross said:

May 29, 2018 9:52:19 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

I don't consider heels like Dibiase "offensive". He was fantastic and I think he'd get over in any era. That's not what I'm talking about. My original post is referring to characters like the original Goldust, or Racist HHH vs. Booker, or Muhammad Hassan.

To me it wasn't offensive either and enjoyed his gimmick, I don't know if he'd be able to do the stuff he did without WWE having to backtack and apologize with things like having people kiss his sweaty feet but to each their own.

As for guys like Trips in 03 or the original Goldust, I don't mind seeing it as long as the heel gets his comeuppance in the end.

I really don't believe that Dibiase would force WWE to apologize for making people kiss his feet nowadays. That's just a basic humiliation tactic.

[chronocross]

May 29, 2018 10:16:24 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

May 29, 2018 9:56:26 GMT -5 chronocross said:

To me it wasn't offensive either and enjoyed his gimmick, I don't know if he'd be able to do the stuff he did without WWE having to backtack and apologize with things like having people kiss his sweaty feet but to each their own.

As for guys like Trips in 03 or the original Goldust, I don't mind seeing it as long as the heel gets his comeuppance in the end.

I really don't believe that Dibiase would force WWE to apologize for making people kiss his feet nowadays. That's just a basic humiliation tactic.

Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant the way how things are today that there would be an uproar over some of the tactics he used, I don't think it would fly today.

I don't mind seeing heels get offensive or push the envelope to get heat as long as they get their just deserts in the end.

[Deleted]

Absolutely not.

They need to make moral decisions that are the easy way out, or that we would be upset by though and the shows around them need to reflect that what they did is bad. WWE has problems creating heels without being offensive because they have for years had announcers and authority figures say stuff like "He's making an impact!" or whatever when the wrestlers act like scumbags so the universe has no moral center. So they instead have to use the moral center of the wider society around them, and the easiest way to do that is say offensive garbage.

[FinalGwen]

Cody Rhodes has been having one of the best feuds in decades against a kayfabe LGBT couple, and is reviled for his part on it, all without saying anything dehumanising or homophobic, with the feud built around the characters and their personalities.

Heels who 'need' to be offensive are admitting they're unimaginative and bad at what they do.

[HMARK Center]

I'd say that there's no hard and fast rules in wrestling: there are definitely general guideposts to live by, but with the right talent, the right timing, and the right execution nearly anything can work well.

That said, going for cheap/offensive heat usually isn't the way to do it, because pro wrestling is not noted historically for its ability to handle, well, just about anything with deftness. It's plenty easy to just have heels break convention by cheating or by dishonoring their opponents, by having them be uncomfortably violent, etc. It all depends on the world the bookers have set up. Minoru Suzuki works so well partly because NJPW portrays itself as a legitimate competition: his cheating is a slap in the face of legitimate competition. Dario Cueto works so well because the world of Lucha Underground is a seedy crime scene, and he's the seediest, most manipulative bastard there is. The world has to be defined so that we can readily understand what makes somebody a hero, villain, or in between in that world. If you pull that off, then heels don't need to do anything crazy, their very acts of upending the codes of ethics and whatnot in the promotion they work in does most of the heat-grabbing for them.

Again, though, I don't want to say something really offensive couldn't work, but it's just not worth it if you're not going to put the legwork in to really make it work, and to not just settle for exploitative shock or what have you.

[eJm]

In OTT, Zach Gibson's gimmick is essentially "British guy saying he's better than Irish Wrestling". Yet, dude is so good at his job and booed so loudy you can barely hear him on the microphone. He doesn't need to say anything stereotypical or talk about Potatoes, he just needs to capitalise on the growing popularity of Irish based wrestling by saying "Hey, you're still not worthy of us British" and there you go. Using nationality without pushing things too hard.

[Allie Kitsune]

May 29, 2018 10:16:24 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

May 29, 2018 9:56:26 GMT -5 chronocross said:

To me it wasn't offensive either and enjoyed his gimmick, I don't know if he'd be able to do the stuff he did without WWE having to backtack and apologize with things like having people kiss his sweaty feet but to each their own.

As for guys like Trips in 03 or the original Goldust, I don't mind seeing it as long as the heel gets his comeuppance in the end.

I really don't believe that Dibiase would force WWE to apologize for making people kiss his feet nowadays. That's just a basic humiliation tactic.

I think WWE would have to apologize for him stuffing cash into the mouth of his opponents if they were of an ethnic background.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

May 29, 2018 11:06:48 GMT -5 Allie Kitsune said:

May 29, 2018 10:16:24 GMT -5 Clash, Never a Meter Maid said:

I really don't believe that Dibiase would force WWE to apologize for making people kiss his feet nowadays. That's just a basic humiliation tactic.

I think WWE would have to apologize for him stuffing cash into the mouth of his opponents if they were of an ethnic background.

If the writers or Dibiase felt the need to harp on the fact that he’s abusing a minority, then yes, that would feel unnecessary. But Okada did the same thing to SANADA (as a face) and got away with it. Just on its own, I don’t see it being that big an issue.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

May 29, 2018 10:48:24 GMT -5 HMARK Center said:

I'd say that there's no hard and fast rules in wrestling: there are definitely general guideposts to live by, but with the right talent, the right timing, and the right execution nearly anything can work well.

That said, going for cheap/offensive heat usually isn't the way to do it, because pro wrestling is not noted historically for its ability to handle, well, just about anything with deftness. It's plenty easy to just have heels break convention by cheating or by dishonoring their opponents, by having them be uncomfortably violent, etc. It all depends on the world the bookers have set up. Minoru Suzuki works so well partly because NJPW portrays itself as a legitimate competition: his cheating is a slap in the face of legitimate competition. Dario Cueto works so well because the world of Lucha Underground is a seedy crime scene, and he's the seediest, most manipulative bastard there is. The world has to be defined so that we can readily understand what makes somebody a hero, villain, or in between in that world. If you pull that off, then heels don't need to do anything crazy, their very acts of upending the codes of ethics and whatnot in the promotion they work in does most of the heat-grabbing for them.

Again, though, I don't want to say something really offensive couldn't work, but it's just not worth it if you're not going to put the legwork in to really make it work, and to not just settle for exploitative shock or what have you.

Exactly. The problem is that I’ve seen so many crappy shock angles over the years, so much lame Russo crap. And there’s just so many different ways to be an effective heel in wrestling that doesn’t feel the need to dip into that territory. Cueto is one of my favorite examples of the evil authority figure, because LU takes him to that trope’s logical extreme. And his storylines don’t play into his ethnicity or any thing like that.

[David-Arquette was in WCW 2000]

Shawn Michaels would verbally abuse and mock the crowd, soil the Canadian flag, make obscene gestures and generally be a prick. But I don't think the majority would say he's 'offensive'. He was just an obnoxious, arrogant douche. But I depends on the times. If a guy did that same stuff in WWE now people would be up in arms saying how inappropriate he was.