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Post by Cyno on Dec 19, 2019 21:57:13 GMT -5
So I'm seeing my friends who I generally trust for movie taste saying they liked it even with its issues. That makes me a bit more optimistic going into things.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 19, 2019 22:18:34 GMT -5
So I'm seeing my friends who I generally trust for movie taste saying they liked it even with its issues. That makes me a bit more optimistic going into things. There are definitely lots of things to like. Some really good performances, great music, great action, wonderful score, great special effects, and some really good character moments. I just feel like there's nothing holding any of those positive things together.
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Dec 19, 2019 22:18:51 GMT -5
Really the biggest problem I had with Last Jedi was that it didn't really leave the door open for much in the way of interesting stuff in the sequel (though I thought it was fine on its own merits). It feels like this one just decided they didn't need to bother trying to create some organic follow throughs and instead just decided to clumsily ignore and undo it wherever possible. Clumsily ignoring or undoing the movies that came before has basically been the backbone of this trilogy from film to film.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 19, 2019 22:35:45 GMT -5
I loved TLJ, Im pretty disappointed that they caved in to the whacko youtubers for this movie. TLJ setup the end in an interesting way but instead they destroyed all of that for too much fan service There is a club of people blaming the state of the third film on the 'whacko youtubers'. There are many reasons to ignore/retcon The Last Jedi but I really doubt that is one of them. By 'whacko youtubers' do they mean fans of the original trilogy ? What's the definition here ? I'm a fan of the original trilogy. But it's also been two years of nonstop nonsense from a bunch of whiny entitled babies who've acted like The Last Jedi was the worst thing to happen to humanity since the Black Plague. I think we all know full well what types of "fans" we're referring to when people bring that up.
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Post by Hurbster on Dec 19, 2019 22:42:27 GMT -5
Fair enough, gotcha. I could not disagree more but I get it.
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Post by thechase on Dec 20, 2019 7:25:27 GMT -5
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Dec 20, 2019 8:32:40 GMT -5
Incidentally that's the exact same audience rating as TFA and Rogue One. Of course very few in the audience have seen it yet so we'll see where it settles. ROS has only around 7k reviews so far. Rogue One has 100K and TFA has 231K. Original trilogy is all in the 90+ range for audience ratings, with far more ratings made (around or over a million each)
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Push R Truth
Patti Mayonnaise
Unique and Special Snowflake, and a pants-less heathen.
Perpetually Constipated
Posts: 39,293
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Post by Push R Truth on Dec 20, 2019 8:48:19 GMT -5
I liked it.
It's neither the worst nor best movie Star Wars movie ever. I know that line of thinking is not going to generate all the cool youtube likes and social media points the world revolves around. But I'd rather be honest than fish for controversy. It was a bit of a busy movie, but it had to cover a lot of ground to create/wrap of a story that didn't completely invalidate the previous two movies in the final trilogy.
I think it's a 75-85 range type movie and will be viewed as the best of the Sequel Movies.
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,722
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Post by lucas_lee on Dec 20, 2019 10:00:50 GMT -5
There is a club of people blaming the state of the third film on the 'whacko youtubers'. There are many reasons to ignore/retcon The Last Jedi but I really doubt that is one of them. By 'whacko youtubers' do they mean fans of the original trilogy ? What's the definition here ? I'm a fan of the original trilogy. But it's also been two years of nonstop nonsense from a bunch of whiny entitled babies who've acted like The Last Jedi was the worst thing to happen to humanity since the Black Plague. I think we all know full well what types of "fans" we're referring to when people bring that up. You hit the nail on the head on what I was thinking. Im a massive fan of the OT, I even went back and viewed the unaltered versions, so Im not mad about TLJ. Im mad at the fans that bullied actresses and Im mad JJ kind of validated them by reducing Rose's role and screentime. Also TLJ gave them a lot of opitions for storytelling IMO. While I think Finns subplot was silly, I understood the purpose it served
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Post by Alexander The So-so on Dec 20, 2019 10:31:27 GMT -5
I’d just like to add for who don’t like this movie because they liked TLJ, and are complaining “hur, they gave in to the toxic manbaby fanboys,” I’d like to say that whenever I criticized TLJ, I’ve been, at various turns:
-Told that I was watching the movie the wrong way
-Told that the themes were going over my head
-Told that I was being willfully ignorant and was refusing to see what was there
-Told that I was upset about fan theories I never actually had not turning out to be the case (I never even HAD a “Snoke theory.” I just wanted some logical explanation)
-Had words put in my mouth about what my issues were (I don’t like strong female characters, I just wanted Luke to be a lightsaber-swinging badass, I can’t handle depressing themes)
-Called entitled and toxic, and told I was overreacting about a kids’ movie.
Basically, told not to trust what my own perceptions or emotions were telling me, and called crazy and wrong. Otherwise known as textbook gaslighting. I can literally dig up posts where this has happened on this very forum.
So, I have zero sympathy for those people not being satisfied.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Dec 20, 2019 11:10:31 GMT -5
Honest question for someone who might be old enough to know, I’m born in 1986 so the OT was old news by then, but were people really upset that there was exactly 0 backstory given for the Emperor beyond “He’s an evil wizard dictator” back in the day?
Because the Snoke thing keeps coming up, and his backstory seems completely irrelevant to the story they’re telling in the sequels and is a story that could be told elsewhere
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,722
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Post by lucas_lee on Dec 20, 2019 11:13:12 GMT -5
I’d just like to add for who don’t like this movie because they liked TLJ, and are complaining “hur, they gave in to the toxic manbaby fanboys,” I’d like to say that whenever I criticized TLJ, I’ve been, at various turns: -Told that I was watching the movie the wrong way -Told that the themes were going over my head -Told that I was being willfully ignorant and was refusing to see what was there -Told that I was upset about fan theories I never actually had not turning out to be the case (I never even HAD a “Snoke theory.” I just wanted some logical explanation) -Had words put in my mouth about what my issues were (I don’t like strong female characters, I just wanted Luke to be a lightsaber-swinging badass, I can’t handle depressing themes) -Called entitled and toxic, and told I was overreacting about a kids’ movie. Basically, told not to trust what my own perceptions or emotions were telling me, and called crazy and wrong. Otherwise known as textbook gaslighting. I can literally dig up posts where this has happened on this very forum. So, I have zero sympathy for those people not being satisfied. I respect anyone who has valid criticisms of TLJ. But you have to admit the loudest critics were pretty henious in bullying actresses and actors involved with the projects
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Dec 20, 2019 11:16:20 GMT -5
Honest question for someone who might be old enough to know, I’m born in 1986 so the OT was old news by then, but were people really upset that there was exactly 0 backstory given for the Emperor beyond “He’s an evil wizard dictator” back in the day? Because the Snoke thing keeps coming up, and his backstory seems completely irrelevant to the story they’re telling in the sequels and is a story that could be told elsewhere I don't know about the reception at the time, but you do an archetypal wizard villain like the Emperor once in a film trilogy that is heavily influenced by old film serials. That totally works...once. He's slowly built up over the films and is the big bad at the end of the trilogy. The Star Wars universe is also a blank slate at that point, and he fits neatly into it as the mysterious head of the evil space nazis. Snoke is blatantly in the sequel movies as a substitute for the Emperor, in a reset universe with his Empire substitute taking over. That demands some explanation or else it just comes off as lazy. And then they just say "f*** it" and bring the Emperor back anyway.
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Post by Alexander The So-so on Dec 20, 2019 11:27:26 GMT -5
I’d just like to add for who don’t like this movie because they liked TLJ, and are complaining “hur, they gave in to the toxic manbaby fanboys,” I’d like to say that whenever I criticized TLJ, I’ve been, at various turns: -Told that I was watching the movie the wrong way -Told that the themes were going over my head -Told that I was being willfully ignorant and was refusing to see what was there -Told that I was upset about fan theories I never actually had not turning out to be the case (I never even HAD a “Snoke theory.” I just wanted some logical explanation) -Had words put in my mouth about what my issues were (I don’t like strong female characters, I just wanted Luke to be a lightsaber-swinging badass, I can’t handle depressing themes) -Called entitled and toxic, and told I was overreacting about a kids’ movie. Basically, told not to trust what my own perceptions or emotions were telling me, and called crazy and wrong. Otherwise known as textbook gaslighting. I can literally dig up posts where this has happened on this very forum. So, I have zero sympathy for those people not being satisfied. I respect anyone who has valid criticisms of TLJ. But you have to admit the loudest critics were pretty henious in bullying actresses and actors involved with the projects Absolutely, no argument here. That’s basically the reason why I’m not seeing this movie and am pretty much apathetic about Star Wars in general: it’s gone from being a rich fictional lore-heavy imaginative fantasy world, to a postmodern culture war battlefield, both within and outside the films themselves. There’s nothing fun or pleasant about the franchise for me anymore.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 20, 2019 11:38:15 GMT -5
Jar Jar appeared in TPM. Lucas thought it would be a great character, beloved and embraced by the fans. It wasn't, so Lucas made one of his few good decisions and greatly reduced its presence in the remaining two films. The same applies to Rose Tico. This character never needed to exist, so it was also correctly reduced. The lesson from this is that useless, redundant characters should not be given shitloads of screentime when more important characters and storylines need screentime to be properly developed.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Dec 20, 2019 12:50:43 GMT -5
I respect anyone who has valid criticisms of TLJ. But you have to admit the loudest critics were pretty henious in bullying actresses and actors involved with the projects Absolutely, no argument here. That’s basically the reason why I’m not seeing this movie and am pretty much apathetic about Star Wars in general: it’s gone from being a rich fictional lore-heavy imaginative fantasy world, to a postmodern culture war battlefield, both within and outside the films themselves. There’s nothing fun or pleasant about the franchise for me anymore. But the Star Wars film franchise and fan culture have always been post-modern, no? Since 1977, we've seen a nostalgia for a present that never was, the convergence of childhood and commodity culture, how American society mythologized itself into believing it was the Rebellion when at the time it was more like the Empire, and incredulity towards grand narratives that make people anxious and uncertain about their place in the world. All of these things precede the Disney sequels. All of these also precede the prequels. In many respects, the prequels are far more "political," in the modern sense of the term, than anything that exists in the Disney sequels. I don't see Star Wars being a thorny, difficult property to engage with as a recent phenomenon; it's always been challenging, contradictory, and often salient in what's going on at the moment of any particular film release.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Dec 20, 2019 12:54:01 GMT -5
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Post by thechase on Dec 20, 2019 13:06:53 GMT -5
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Post by Alexander The So-so on Dec 20, 2019 13:12:34 GMT -5
Absolutely, no argument here. That’s basically the reason why I’m not seeing this movie and am pretty much apathetic about Star Wars in general: it’s gone from being a rich fictional lore-heavy imaginative fantasy world, to a postmodern culture war battlefield, both within and outside the films themselves. There’s nothing fun or pleasant about the franchise for me anymore. But the Star Wars film franchise and fan culture have always been post-modern, no? Since 1977, we've seen a nostalgia for a present that never was, the convergence of childhood and commodity culture, how American society mythologized itself into believing it was the Rebellion when at the time it was more like the Empire, and incredulity towards grand narratives that make people anxious and uncertain about their place in the world. All of these things precede the Disney sequels. All of these also precede the prequels. In many respects, the prequels are far more "political," in the modern sense of the term, than anything that exists in the Disney sequels. I don't see Star Wars being a thorny, difficult property to engage with as a recent phenomenon; it's always been challenging, contradictory, and often salient in what's going on at the moment of any particular film release. More than anything else, the ST was about itself as a modern media franchise than about any story that had any reason to exist. You can see the OT and see lots of lessons and insights about a multiple number of things, whether it be about spirituality, family relationships, struggles against overwhelming odds, etc. You can watch the PT and see a lot of timeless political themes that have been relevant since the time of Ancient Greece and Rome, and which thinkers across eras have pondered over. In each case, there’s a timelessness, and there’s nothing uniquely “postmodern” about it. The Disney Trilogy fundamentally fails because it’s about nothing else than Star Wars as it memetically exists in early 21st century popular culture. Why is there a Death Star Planet in TFA? Is it because the villain characters in the story would logically have access to the capital it takes to build something, as did the Empire that literally ruled the galaxy? No, it’s simply because this is a Star Wars movie, therefore it must have a Death Star as a ‘member berry. Why is Rey said to come from parents who weren’t anyone special in TLJ? Is it because that provides a logical explanation for why she’s so powerful? No, it’s because Star Wars movies are expected to have dramatic parentage reveals, and Rian Johnson wanted to Russo-swerve us all by saying that the twist is that there is no twist. Why is Emperor Palpatine back in ROS? Is it because this serves any compelling thematic purpose? No, it’s because this is the last movie in a Star Wars trilogy, and it memetically HAS to have a big bad who’s defeated in the end, and since Snoke was killed off, JJ had to dig the old villain up out of the dirt so that he was in place. I’ve never seen any franchise, let alone a Star Wars trilogy, that was this self-conscious, this obsessed with superficial image, this self-referential, and this wrongfully convinced that crafting a story consisted of stringing together a context-less series of memes rather than old-fashioned stuff like human emotions, comprehensible decision-making matrixes, and relevant themes and struggles that speak to the human experience across eras. This is why I’m convinced that in the long run, history will not be kind to these movies, since between their metatextual self-consciousness and desperate trendiness of what’s popular right now in the 2010’s (Marvel movies, especially), they’re going to age like milk, culturally.
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Dec 20, 2019 13:14:59 GMT -5
I know, China, but that steady decline is crazy.
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