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Post by Hit Girl on Feb 10, 2019 16:45:22 GMT -5
Lucasfilm still haven't explained why a map leading to Luke exists, who created it, or why it wouldn't completely undermine Luke's exile in the first place.
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Post by James Fabiano on Feb 10, 2019 17:24:33 GMT -5
Lucasfilm still haven't explained why a map leading to Luke exists, who created it, or why it wouldn't completely undermine Luke's exile in the first place. It's magic! We don't have to explain it!
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Post by Hit Girl on Feb 10, 2019 17:33:14 GMT -5
Luke gave up on Ben Solo and considered murdering him, after merely sensing the dark side in him.....after never giving up on redeeming Darth Vader who was basically the Star Wars universe's Heinrich Himmler.
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Post by xCompackx on Feb 10, 2019 20:40:17 GMT -5
Luke gave up on Ben Solo and considered murdering him, after merely sensing the dark side in him.....after never giving up on redeeming Darth Vader who was basically the Star Wars universe's Heinrich Himmler. I dunno, it's one thing to be born into a world where your father is a monster. But to know the son of your friend who's been trusted in your care to train him has that same potential and you can't do anything to stop it would probably f*** with you.
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Post by Cyno on Feb 10, 2019 20:56:35 GMT -5
Porgs are the best.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Feb 10, 2019 22:04:26 GMT -5
Luke gave up on Ben Solo and considered murdering him, after merely sensing the dark side in him.....after never giving up on redeeming Darth Vader who was basically the Star Wars universe's Heinrich Himmler. And the shame of that is why he exiled himself.
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Post by Hit Girl on Feb 11, 2019 0:09:55 GMT -5
Luke gave up on Ben Solo and considered murdering him, after merely sensing the dark side in him.....after never giving up on redeeming Darth Vader who was basically the Star Wars universe's Heinrich Himmler. And the shame of that is why he exiled himself. The problem is that his initial actions make no sense, and neither does the exile. He brought Vader out of the darkness, long after he had turned and committed atrocities, so it lacks narrative credibility that he would even consider murder of a kid before he had even turned at all. Did he even bother talking to Ben about the dark side and trying to keep him away from it? If so, that should have been included in the plot, as it was extremely important. Exiling himself simply made the problem worse, as he could have helped the Republic fight Ben and the First Order, rather than sulking on an island.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Feb 11, 2019 0:25:49 GMT -5
Yeah they do. One can not like the character motivations etc and how things shook out; perfectly valid subjective argument there&certainty there were ways to write it differently. I get not liking how they were presented
Nothing about the motivations are inherently nonsensical though. One can easily see the logic of how Luke felt and what led him to make the decisions there. His failure as the result of his overconfidence in his abilities was the entire point. They even give him dialogue explicitly stating that the legend of Luke Skywalker was different than the man, and his entire character arc is built around that.
I can totally see someone not enjoying that and wanting them to have written post Return of the Jedi Luke differently, but to say the story they told doesn't make sense narratively just ain't true.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Feb 11, 2019 0:36:27 GMT -5
Snoke not being explained more is another one that doesn't bother me. Again, I get wanting to know more about him but it's not really his story; it's enough to say he was a powerful dark force that took control in a power vacuum and turned Ben.
One can not like that, totally understandable, but if you think back to Palpatine we didn't know dick about him in the original trilogy. Didn't even show up in physical form till Jedi. And then when he did it's not as if he a character beyond evil old man ruler who shoots lightning. You didn't really need it. Even the prequels that showed his rise to power never really got inside his head.
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The Unconquered Sun
King Koopa
He has no pants! What a heathen!
Lord of Storms and Kittens!
Posts: 11,548
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Post by The Unconquered Sun on Feb 11, 2019 0:58:15 GMT -5
Luke gave up on Ben Solo and considered murdering him, after merely sensing the dark side in him.....after never giving up on redeeming Darth Vader who was basically the Star Wars universe's Heinrich Himmler. ya know, multiple times in ROTJ, Luke said he felt the conflict in Vader, that there was still good in him. It’s possible he never felt any good left in Ben, you know the guy that killed his father and tried to kill his mother.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Feb 11, 2019 1:10:50 GMT -5
Luke gave up on Ben Solo and considered murdering him, after merely sensing the dark side in him.....after never giving up on redeeming Darth Vader who was basically the Star Wars universe's Heinrich Himmler. ya know, multiple times in ROTJ, Luke said he felt the conflict in Vader, that there was still good in him. It’s possible he never felt any good left in Ben, you know the guy that killed his father and tried to kill his mother. Also he pulled the Saber but didn't strike or start to strike. He freaked out at first and stopped himself from doing something.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 11, 2019 1:48:04 GMT -5
ya know, multiple times in ROTJ, Luke said he felt the conflict in Vader, that there was still good in him. It’s possible he never felt any good left in Ben, you know the guy that killed his father and tried to kill his mother. Also he pulled the Saber but didn't strike or start to strike. He freaked out at first and stopped himself from doing something. It's very clearly played as a moment of weakness, only it's a moment of weakness that Ben witnessed, and he subsequently proved Luke right. You'd think rational reaction for Ben would be to simply run away after pulling the hut down on top of Luke, but instead he slaughtered most of the other students in their sleep and razed the academy to the ground.
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Post by Larryhausen on Feb 11, 2019 1:52:54 GMT -5
Also he pulled the Saber but didn't strike or start to strike. He freaked out at first and stopped himself from doing something. It's very clearly played as a moment of weakness, only it's a moment of weakness that Ben witnessed, and he subsequently proved Luke right. You'd think rational reaction for Ben would be to simply run away after pulling the hut down on top of Luke, but instead he slaughtered most of the other students in their sleep and razed the academy to the ground. Yup, Luke's one moment of doubt wound up proving him right.
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Post by Cvslfc123 on Feb 11, 2019 6:19:37 GMT -5
Feels surreal that the last film in this trilogy is being released this year, still feels like yesterday when the the Force Awakens was in cinemas.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 11, 2019 6:28:35 GMT -5
Feels surreal that the last film in this trilogy is being released this year, still feels like yesterday when the the Force Awakens was in cinemas. I think it's a combination of two things: 1) because they've released two spinoff movies in between, we haven't really had any time to breathe and live with these movies as we did with the previous trilogies, and 2) the previous trilogies were released over the course of six years apiece ('77-'83, '99-'05), whereas this trilogy has been released over just four.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Feb 11, 2019 11:03:46 GMT -5
Feels surreal that the last film in this trilogy is being released this year, still feels like yesterday when the the Force Awakens was in cinemas. I think it's a combination of two things: 1) because they've released two spinoff movies in between, we haven't really had any time to breathe and live with these movies as we did with the previous trilogies, and 2) the previous trilogies were released over the course of six years apiece ('77-'83, '99-'05), whereas this trilogy has been released over just four. The spin offs really do take some of the hype off the films. Especially with how little they actually added.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 11, 2019 11:08:06 GMT -5
I think it's a combination of two things: 1) because they've released two spinoff movies in between, we haven't really had any time to breathe and live with these movies as we did with the previous trilogies, and 2) the previous trilogies were released over the course of six years apiece ('77-'83, '99-'05), whereas this trilogy has been released over just four. The spin offs really do take some of the hype off the films. Especially with how little they actually added. I do feel Rogue One has been the best Star Wars movie since the OT, but you're right. I think they should've left the spinoffs until after Episode IX had come and gone. I still think they should, and wait at least five or six years before launching into Rian Johnson's Episodes X-XIII.
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Post by Hit Girl on Feb 11, 2019 11:15:26 GMT -5
Yeah they do. One can not like the character motivations etc and how things shook out; perfectly valid subjective argument there&certainty there were ways to write it differently. I get not liking how they were presented Nothing about the motivations are inherently nonsensical though. One can easily see the logic of how Luke felt and what led him to make the decisions there. His failure as the result of his overconfidence in his abilities was the entire point. They even give him dialogue explicitly stating that the legend of Luke Skywalker was different than the man, and his entire character arc is built around that. I can totally see someone not enjoying that and wanting them to have written post Return of the Jedi Luke differently, but to say the story they told doesn't make sense narratively just ain't true. It is. The legend of Luke Skywalker was that he was a great Jedi and rebel leader, which was entirely backed up by what actually took place. He really was both of those things. Nothing about him was exaggerated or embellished. It's completely inconsistent to then depict him as being a man who might consider murdering his own nephew merely because he senses the dark side within him then completely give up on life, the Jedi, the rebel cause, and his confidence in the Force, when he had faced far greater challenges and overcome them entirely in the previous trilogy Snoke not being explained more is another one that doesn't bother me. Again, I get wanting to know more about him but it's not really his story; it's enough to say he was a powerful dark force that took control in a power vacuum and turned Ben. One can not like that, totally understandable, but if you think back to Palpatine we didn't know dick about him in the original trilogy. Didn't even show up in physical form till Jedi. And then when he did it's not as if he a character beyond evil old man ruler who shoots lightning. You didn't really need it. Even the prequels that showed his rise to power never really got inside his head. They needed to explain why the Republic was so weak in TFA and when the First Order was so powerful. Even in the OT, at least some historical information was given to explain where the Empire came from, but it's completely devoid in TFA and TLJ. Even a few lines may have sufficed, but virtually nothing is provided. Luke gave up on Ben Solo and considered murdering him, after merely sensing the dark side in him.....after never giving up on redeeming Darth Vader who was basically the Star Wars universe's Heinrich Himmler. ya know, multiple times in ROTJ, Luke said he felt the conflict in Vader, that there was still good in him. It’s possible he never felt any good left in Ben, you know the guy that killed his father and tried to kill his mother. Yet he maintained faith in the man who killed his own mother, massacred children, and exterminated countless Jedi while collabortating with a totalitarian government. Besides, Ben didn't kill his father until long after he had been abandoned by Luke.
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Post by Alexander The So-so on Feb 11, 2019 13:09:53 GMT -5
Yeah they do. One can not like the character motivations etc and how things shook out; perfectly valid subjective argument there&certainty there were ways to write it differently. I get not liking how they were presented Nothing about the motivations are inherently nonsensical though. One can easily see the logic of how Luke felt and what led him to make the decisions there. His failure as the result of his overconfidence in his abilities was the entire point. They even give him dialogue explicitly stating that the legend of Luke Skywalker was different than the man, and his entire character arc is built around that. I can totally see someone not enjoying that and wanting them to have written post Return of the Jedi Luke differently, but to say the story they told doesn't make sense narratively just ain't true. It is. The legend of Luke Skywalker was that he was a great Jedi and rebel leader, which was entirely backed up by what actually took place. He really was both of those things. Nothing about him was exaggerated or embellished. It's completely inconsistent to then depict him as being a man who might consider murdering his own nephew merely because he senses the dark side within him then completely give up on life, the Jedi, the rebel cause, and his confidence in the Force, when he had faced far greater challenges and overcome them entirely in the previous trilogy Snoke not being explained more is another one that doesn't bother me. Again, I get wanting to know more about him but it's not really his story; it's enough to say he was a powerful dark force that took control in a power vacuum and turned Ben. One can not like that, totally understandable, but if you think back to Palpatine we didn't know dick about him in the original trilogy. Didn't even show up in physical form till Jedi. And then when he did it's not as if he a character beyond evil old man ruler who shoots lightning. You didn't really need it. Even the prequels that showed his rise to power never really got inside his head. They needed to explain why the Republic was so weak in TFA and when the First Order was so powerful. Even in the OT, at least some historical information was given to explain where the Empire came from, but it's completely devoid in TFA and TLJ. Even a few lines may have sufficed, but virtually nothing is provided. ya know, multiple times in ROTJ, Luke said he felt the conflict in Vader, that there was still good in him. It’s possible he never felt any good left in Ben, you know the guy that killed his father and tried to kill his mother. Yet he maintained faith in the man who killed his own mother, massacred children, and exterminated countless Jedi while collabortating with a totalitarian government. Besides, Ben didn't kill his father until long after he had been abandoned by Luke. Completely agree. To add on to each of these: 1. The common response to the criticism of Luke's inconsistency and behavior is: "well, he was ashamed! He's only human! I'm sorry he wasn't PERFECT enough for you!" The problem with this is: accepting that he had to raise his blade to his own nephew at all, if he is so ashamed of his moment of weakness in almost striking down Ben, where is his shame for his weakness in the act of running away to pout on an island and leaving everything to rot in his absence? Leia managed to buck up and, in the face of unprecedented personal tragedy and political setbacks, keep fighting on; why couldn't he? I'm not asking for perfection here: I'm asking for the bare minimum of responsible behavior, where he admits he screwed up and does his best to clean up his mess. He only finally gets off his ass and does what he should have done a long time ago at the end of TLJ, except it's too little too late by that point, because there was nothing stopping him from doing this BEFORE Hosnian Prime got blown up. The fact that everyone (in the film and in the audience) just seems okay with/accepting of Luke's actions, despite it being completely, obviously wrong on every level, without calling him out on it, is astounding. 2. Not to mention: like it or not, Snoke IS important. He, above all people, is the only reason the plot of these movies is happening at all. Just like how if someone travelled back in time and killed Hitler when he was a baby, the course of the 20th century would have been drastically different, if someone had travelled back in time and killed Baby Snoke, the galaxy as a whole would have looked radically different. He was the one who built the First Order from nothing but the shards of the Empire and transformed it into a force capable of decapitating the New Republic in one fell swoop and conquering almost all of it with ease. He is the one who turned Ben to the Dark Side and tore the Skywalker-Solo family to shreds. Forgetting the audience's curiosity for a second: in-story aren't the protagonists of the story at all curious about what they're fighting against and why everything is happening, so they can develop strategies against it? Wouldn't the Resistance want to know how it was so easy for the Empire to be revived, so that they could finally prevent it once and for all from happening once this war was over? Doesn't Luke want to know what the bastard who tore up his family was? In the OT, none of this needed explaining; Palpatine was simply The Emperor, the most powerful public figure in the galaxy, and his rise to power happened in public for all to see. No mystery there, no need for the characters to learn anything more. But with the First Order's formation happening in the shadows, it's like 3. So...wait. Now people are arguing that Ben's subsequent actions in becoming Kylo Ren "proved Luke right" in his "moment of weakness." What exactly is this movie advocating, then? Was Luke CORRECT to have raised his blade to his nephew before he had actually done anything? Was Luke's only mistake that he didn't strike down; he should've just killed the kid when he had the chance? And we're saying THAT after that nice message in the OT about how Luke never gave up on his father, even though that was AFTER all of Vader's monstrosities? I have long said that the ST has, unintentionally or no, stumbled into suggesting some deeply alarming and nihilistic moral suggestions, and its mixed messages on Ben Solo is easily one of the biggest examples of this.
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Post by Cyno on Feb 11, 2019 13:54:52 GMT -5
The stuff with why the Republic isn't that strong and First Order buildup is in the books, TV shows, and other supplementary material. Which I think is a failing of how this stuff was left out of the movies in order to sell books and games and whatnot, especially as people who don't read them or look up stuff about them will be left in the dark. But it is out there so all this stuff didn't happen in a vacuum. Basically, the New Republic itself is much smaller than the old Galactic Republic because a lot of systems had bad memories of the corruption and never ending bureaucracy of last days of the Republic before Palpatine used his plan to turn it into the Empire. So there's a lot of systems that are just going on their own without joining the New Republic due to skepticism that they can make it work. And while Coruscant has representation in the New Republic Senate, the New Republic capital world rotates. It was originally Chandrila (Mon Mothma's homeworld) before moving to Hosnian Prime (aka the world that got blown up by Starkiller Base). The First Order is made up of the hardline elements of the Galactic Empire who peaced out to the Unknown Regions after the New Republic and the mainstream Empire signed the Galactic Concordance officially ending the Galactic Civil War and disbanding the Empire. The First Order was formed by these hardline officers and was the ultimate result of the Emperor's Contingency plan, which was meant to completely destroy his Empire upon his death in order for it to be remade stronger (which is very much in line with Sith ideology). They took a lot of their resources with them along with contracting war profiteers who didn't want their credit pools to dry up with the end of the Galactic Civil War, along with a lot of shipyards, storehouses, and other things left behind in the Unknown Regions as part of the Emperor's Contingency. So while the New Republic reduced its own navy significantly to a peacetime fleet, as it with the pre-Clone Wars Republic and the Senate bickered about how to properly run the government in the long-term, the First Order was quietly but steadily building up its infrastructure (supplementing what was already in place with the Contingency), troops (aka, mass child abduction, conscription, and indoctrination from outlying systems, which included Finn), and fleets. No one in the Senate except for Leia actually took the First Order seriously until it was too late, which was also helped by at least one influential Senator secretly belonging to the First Order. Snoke himself is still a mysterious figure even in the new EU. All we really know about him is that he's a powerful alien practitioner of the Dark Side of the Force who was also never Sith, but also was obsessed with finding powerful Force relics, hated the Jedi, and had dreams of galactic conquest. He also came from the Unknown Regions and his Attendants helped the hardline Imperial remnant navigate through what was, to them, uncharted space (they also had Grand Admiral Thrawn's star charts but that wasn't enough). He sorta wormed his way into the First Order power structure and used his power in the Dark Side as well as the political capital he built up with the upper echelons of the First Order to become Supreme Leader.
The First Order still would've been a significant military power and a real threat to the New Republic without Snoke though without his guidance it probably would've taken them longer to get to all the Emperor's various seed worlds. But he didn't build up the First Order from nothing so much as see a good opportunity and take advantage of it for his own purposes. But yeah he's the one who seduced a young Ben Solo to the Dark Side and made him Kylo Ren.
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