|
Post by Hassan bin Sober on Feb 11, 2019 13:56:52 GMT -5
Lucasfilm still haven't explained why a map leading to Luke exists, who created it, or why it wouldn't completely undermine Luke's exile in the first place. It's my understanding that it's a map to the original Jedi Temple, not to Luke himself. It's just that they believed he was there. Her was.
|
|
|
Post by Hassan bin Sober on Feb 11, 2019 13:59:24 GMT -5
Luke gave up on Ben Solo and considered murdering him, after merely sensing the dark side in him.....after never giving up on redeeming Darth Vader who was basically the Star Wars universe's Heinrich Himmler. Luke was ignorant of most of what Vader had done. He just knew he had killed his father, which turned out to be a lie.
|
|
The Unconquered Sun
King Koopa
He has no pants! What a heathen!
Lord of Storms and Kittens!
Posts: 11,548
|
Post by The Unconquered Sun on Feb 11, 2019 14:01:09 GMT -5
ya know, multiple times in ROTJ, Luke said he felt the conflict in Vader, that there was still good in him. It’s possible he never felt any good left in Ben, you know the guy that killed his father and tried to kill his mother. Yet he maintained faith in the man who killed his own mother, massacred children, and exterminated countless Jedi while collabortating with a totalitarian government. Besides, Ben didn't kill his father until long after he had been abandoned by Luke. Luke on Vader:
There's still good in him Because...there is good in him. I've felt it. He won't turn me over to the Emperor. I know there is good in you. The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully. That is why you couldn't destroy me. That's why you won't bring me to your Emperor now. Search your feelings, father. You can't do this. I feel the conflict within you.
Luke on Kylo
I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd see it at moments during his training. But then I looked inside... and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death.
Luke saw Kylo's future and saw no way to redeem him. And despite everything Vader had done, Luke saw that there was still good in him. that's the difference,
|
|
|
Post by Alexander The So-so on Feb 11, 2019 14:04:33 GMT -5
Yet he maintained faith in the man who killed his own mother, massacred children, and exterminated countless Jedi while collabortating with a totalitarian government. Besides, Ben didn't kill his father until long after he had been abandoned by Luke.
Luke saw Kylo's future and saw no way to redeem him. And despite everything Vader had done, Luke saw that there was still good in him. that's the difference, So much for “always in motion is the future,” I guess.
|
|
The Unconquered Sun
King Koopa
He has no pants! What a heathen!
Lord of Storms and Kittens!
Posts: 11,548
|
Post by The Unconquered Sun on Feb 11, 2019 14:06:25 GMT -5
Luke saw Kylo's future and saw no way to redeem him. And despite everything Vader had done, Luke saw that there was still good in him. that's the difference, So much for “always in motion is the future,” I guess. hey, it's still true
|
|
|
Post by Cyno on Feb 11, 2019 14:07:54 GMT -5
Yet he maintained faith in the man who killed his own mother, massacred children, and exterminated countless Jedi while collabortating with a totalitarian government. Besides, Ben didn't kill his father until long after he had been abandoned by Luke. Luke on Vader:
There's still good in him Because...there is good in him. I've felt it. He won't turn me over to the Emperor. I know there is good in you. The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully. That is why you couldn't destroy me. That's why you won't bring me to your Emperor now. Search your feelings, father. You can't do this. I feel the conflict within you.
Luke on Kylo
I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd see it at moments during his training. But then I looked inside... and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death.
Luke saw Kylo's future and saw no way to redeem him. And despite everything Vader had done, Luke saw that there was still good in him. that's the difference, Luke's compassion for Anakin also came from his naivete from being a relatively young, idealistic, newly made Jedi. He was a lot older and more experienced with the Force with Ben and also had to sort of make this new Jedi Order on his own without any other Jedi Masters to regularly consult with outside of maybe the ghosts of Yoda, Obi-Wan, and possibly his father. Maybe his optimism had been replaced with cynicism with how the New Republic was falling into the same old traps the old Republic had. Or maybe Yoda and Obi-Wan's own views towards those taken by the Dark Side (aka, they gotta die because there's no saving them) influenced Luke's thinking by then.
|
|
|
Post by Hit Girl on Feb 11, 2019 14:13:40 GMT -5
Lucasfilm still haven't explained why a map leading to Luke exists, who created it, or why it wouldn't completely undermine Luke's exile in the first place. It's my understanding that it's a map to the original Jedi Temple, not to Luke himself. It's just that they believed he was there. Her was. That would have been a better explanation, had they bothered to put that into the screenplays, which they didn't. Luke gave up on Ben Solo and considered murdering him, after merely sensing the dark side in him.....after never giving up on redeeming Darth Vader who was basically the Star Wars universe's Heinrich Himmler. Luke was ignorant of most of what Vader had done. He just knew he had killed his father, which turned out to be a lie. Yet he maintained faith in the man who killed his own mother, massacred children, and exterminated countless Jedi while collabortating with a totalitarian government. Besides, Ben didn't kill his father until long after he had been abandoned by Luke. Luke on Vader: There's still good in him Because...there is good in him. I've felt it. He won't turn me over to the Emperor. I know there is good in you. The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully. That is why you couldn't destroy me. That's why you won't bring me to your Emperor now. Search your feelings, father. You can't do this. I feel the conflict within you.
Luke on Kylo
I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd see it at moments during his training. But then I looked inside... and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death.
Luke saw Kylo's future and saw no way to redeem him. And despite everything Vader had done, Luke saw that there was still good in him. that's the difference, He knew his father was a galactic warlord who had turned on the Jedi, cut off his hand, wanted to turn him to the dark side, offered him a chance to be co-dictator of the galaxy, hand him over to the most evil man in the galaxy, and turn his sister to the dark side, and still would not give up on him. He gave up on Ben before he had even done anything at all.
|
|
|
Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 11, 2019 14:23:50 GMT -5
1. The common response to the criticism of Luke's inconsistency and behavior is: "well, he was ashamed! He's only human! I'm sorry he wasn't PERFECT enough for you!" The problem with this is: accepting that he had to raise his blade to his own nephew at all, if he is so ashamed of his moment of weakness in almost striking down Ben, where is his shame for his weakness in the act of running away to pout on an island and leaving everything to rot in his absence? Leia managed to buck up and, in the face of unprecedented personal tragedy and political setbacks, keep fighting on; why couldn't he? Because he couldn't handle his failure. It's explicitly stated in the scene with Yoda that he realised that he couldn't be what Rey, and, by extension, the galaxy, expected him to be. He explicitly states he hid himself away on that island to die. He'd given up, because he couldn't live up to the legend of Luke Skywalker that had grown beyond himself. People do call him out on it. He was wrong. But those people also understand why he's done it, rather than throw tantrums about character assassination and "Luke would never do that." As for in-film, Rey calls him out on it constantly. R2 guilt trips him for abandoning Leia. The only reason Leia or anybody else on Crait don't is because the last few minutes before the horrible death you're expecting isn't the best time to tell the long-lost Hero of the New Republic what a selfish, self-pitying asshole he's been. There did need to be some exposition regarding the First Order and the New Rebublic. Not enough scene setting. Snoke himself? Nope. He set up these films, but that's a story for a prequel; he's not the driving force behind the narrative of these movies. That's Ben. Snoke, while being Ben's master, is a side-character whose sole reason for existing is to be supplanted. Ben is not Anakin. They spent four movies and two TV series establishing that Anakin is a good man who was manipulated into doing evil, but never lost the spark of good in him. It's flimsy as f***, but that's on Lucas wanting Vader to be redeemed, which is a far bigger stretch than anything JJ Abrams or Rian Johnson have done. It is stated from the off that Ben always had the darkness in him, that it may have been the bigger part of him, and that Snoke had gotten his hooks into him almost from birth and snuffed out any goodness before it had chance to grow. He's Damien from The Omen, and fact that the first thing Ben did after Luke's moment of weakness was massacre a bunch of kids is a pretty good clue that yeah, he was beyond help long before Luke came into the picture. Luke being unable to strike Ben down ties into the narrative of Luke failing. He failed to see how far gone Ben was. He failed in the promise to his sister. He failed to do what was necessary. He also failed to learn from his failures, and it took a few home truths from Yoda to make him realise it.
|
|
|
Post by Alexander The So-so on Feb 11, 2019 14:48:18 GMT -5
1. The common response to the criticism of Luke's inconsistency and behavior is: "well, he was ashamed! He's only human! I'm sorry he wasn't PERFECT enough for you!" The problem with this is: accepting that he had to raise his blade to his own nephew at all, if he is so ashamed of his moment of weakness in almost striking down Ben, where is his shame for his weakness in the act of running away to pout on an island and leaving everything to rot in his absence? Leia managed to buck up and, in the face of unprecedented personal tragedy and political setbacks, keep fighting on; why couldn't he? Because he couldn't handle his failure. It's explicitly stated in the scene with Yoda that he realised that he couldn't be what Rey, and, by extension, the galaxy, expected him to be. He explicitly states he hid himself away on that island to die. He'd given up, because he couldn't live up to the legend of Luke Skywalker that had grown beyond himself. He could handle his failure of running away to an island just fine, and wasn't torn up about it at all. If he can handle a level of weakness like that, surely he could forgive himself for a momentary minute of weakness. Especially if, as we're apparently establishing here, he was, in fact, correct to raise his blade to Ben (more on THIS later! I swear, I can’t let this aspect go, this is really disturbing me). If his only "failure" was not going through with killing a child, all the more reason not to let that mistake go uncorrected, and go kill the kid now before he blew up Hosnian! As for the "legend," as Hit Girl already said, there's no "legend" here to speak of: only the expectation that Luke will exhibit the same real-life, unembelished capabilities he's already displayed in the past. We’re asking for the bare minimum, here. There's nothing about his decision to "understand." It was categorically, objectively wrong and destructive, and there is no excuse. The ending was the absolute best time to tell him what a self-pitying asshole he had been, considering there wasn't enough time left afterwards. Which doesn't address my point. As eye-rollingly cynical and lazy and lacking in standards as the "he's just a plot device" excuse is, even if that's too much to ask: don't the characters in-story want to get to the bottom of what happened? Luke knows Snoke is responsible for all of his misery; wouldn't unmasking his identity and confronting him have given him more peace of mind? Ah. Mm hm. I see. Oh dear. So yes, yes, that's what we're going with. Ben was just a bad seed and a mad dog, and Luke should've just killed him before he did anything. In other words, Ben literally never had a chance; he was damned from birth, because Snoke The Plot Device got to him from birth. Never once did Ben have any agency in what he did. All of the times he struggled with his remaining light was all for naught, and just in vain. Basically, it's like mental illness: Ben Solo was simply born the equivalent of a schizophrenic, his own mind constantly working against him, due to factors beyond his control and beyond that of his loving family. And no matter how much he struggled, he couldn't resist it, and was destined to become a homicidal dictator and murderer. And the solution to this apparently is...to kill such people when they are young before they can hurt anyone. Well then. That's...that's lovely. That’s just ducky. Disney, A Family Company! And there are theme park attractions at Disneyland based on this s***!? I’m supposed to buy merchandise for this!?
|
|
|
Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 11, 2019 15:47:55 GMT -5
He could handle his failure of running away to an island just fine, and wasn't torn up about it at all. If he can handle a level of weakness like that, surely he could forgive himself for a momentary minute of weakness. Especially if, as we're apparently establishing here, he was, in fact, correct to raise his blade to Ben; if his only "failure" was not going through with killing a child, all the more reason not to let that mistake go uncorrected, and go kill the kid now before he blew up Hosnian! Again, he'd given up and had gone away to die in shame and exile, driven by the knowledge that he could not kill Ben, even if he wanted to. That's the point. Luke Skywalker has become a mythical figure by the time these movies start. It's been four decades and he evidently wasn't a public face of the New Republic whose exploits were publicised in fine detail. It's in the dialogue in Force Awakens - "Luke Skywalker? I thought he was just a myth?" Mythologicalised heroes are always bigger than reality could ever let them be. That's how they become mythologised in the first place. Even at the end of Last Jedi, Luke comes to understand that while he cannot be the mythological hero the galaxy wants or needs, perpetuating the myth has as much value, as it gives the galaxy hope. Yes, he was wrong. But all decisions, right or wrong, have reasons behind them. Luke's reasons seem to fly over your head, however. The movie isn't about Luke slaying the foe that has been responsible for his pain, though. It's Ben and Rey's story and Luke is a supporting player in their journey. And besides, what is there to get to the bottom of for them? Luke and Leia already know exactly what happened with Snoke and Ben. The only reason we know so much is because they tell us. It sounds like you're less concerned about giving a secondary character more on-screen backstory than is necessary and more interested in seeing the elderly protagonist of the OT have one last battle, which, while neat, doesn't do anything narratively we haven't seen before. Or, rather, he embraced it and his only struggle was feeling like he couldn't live up to the legend of his grandfather, mirroring Luke's own struggle. Leia basically says that sending him to Luke was a Hail Mary before accepting that there was never any real hope for him. It's bleak, it's cynical, but the entire movie is bleak and cynical.
|
|
Chiral
Salacious Crumb
Posts: 72,901
|
Post by Chiral on Feb 11, 2019 16:00:18 GMT -5
Yet he maintained faith in the man who killed his own mother, massacred children, and exterminated countless Jedi while collabortating with a totalitarian government. Besides, Ben didn't kill his father until long after he had been abandoned by Luke. Luke on Vader: There's still good in him Because...there is good in him. I've felt it. He won't turn me over to the Emperor. I know there is good in you. The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully. That is why you couldn't destroy me. That's why you won't bring me to your Emperor now. Search your feelings, father. You can't do this. I feel the conflict within you.
Luke on Kylo
I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd see it at moments during his training. But then I looked inside... and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, and pain, and death.
Luke saw Kylo's future and saw no way to redeem him. And despite everything Vader had done, Luke saw that there was still good in him. that's the difference, Also important IMO, Leia telling Luke "I know my son is gone." I feel like when Kylo and Leia connected through the Force early on in TLJ, she either sensed that Ben was just about gone or completely out the door. I think him not firing the cannons was the last gasp of Ben Solo, and from there on out he was only Kylo Ren (see later on when he orders the troops to kill everyone in the Crait base, his mother included). It makes the dark side to be almost like a disease.
|
|
|
Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 11, 2019 16:40:45 GMT -5
Also important IMO, Leia telling Luke "I know my son is gone." I feel like when Kylo and Leia connected through the Force early on in TLJ, she either sensed that Ben was just about gone or completely out the door. I think him not firing the cannons was the last gasp of Ben Solo, and from there on out he was only Kylo Ren (see later on when he orders the troops to kill everyone in the Crait base, his mother included). It makes the dark side to be almost like a disease. Exactly my point. Luke realises Ben is gone. Leia realises and admits Ben is gone. Rey believes that just as Luke did with Vader, she can bring Ben back to the light. Ben promptly shows her just how terribly wrong she was. Many serial killers' paths are seemingly set in stone from an early age by a pattern of child abuse, and I don't see Ben as being any different. He's a tragic monster, but a monster nonetheless.
|
|
|
Post by Alexander The So-so on Feb 11, 2019 16:45:04 GMT -5
As for the "legend," as Hit Girl already said, there's no "legend" here to speak of: only the expectation that Luke will exhibit the same capabilities he's already displayed in the past. Luke Skywalker has become a mythical figure by the time these movies start. It's been four decades and he evidently wasn't a public face of the New Republic whose exploits were publicised in fine detail. It's in the dialogue in Force Awakens - "Luke Skywalker? I thought he was just a myth?" Mythologicalised heroes are always bigger than reality could ever let them be. That's how they become mythologised in the first place. Even at the end of Last Jedi, Luke comes to understand that while he cannot be the mythological hero the galaxy wants or needs, perpetuating the myth has as much value, as it gives the galaxy hope. We're not talking about his reputation or "myth." We are talking about his demonstrated capabilities, inclinations, and lessons we know for a fact he's learned. His "myth" in the galaxy has nothing, zip to do with the question of him not knowing better about how to handle the dark side, or the lessons he learned from all of his training (again: whatever happened to "always in motion is the future?"). Bringing up his reputation is a sleight of hand which has nothing to do with the question at hand. I also, I have been told, apparently don't have a high enough IQ to appreciate Rick & Morty. I guess I'm just stupid. *shrugs* No, I am trying to say how I would've felt if I were in the shoes of these characters, and what a comprehensible decision-making matrix would look like to me. I think a lot of human beings would have had a much less passive attitude, and a much more "I need closure/I want the bastard who did this to pay or be brought to justice/I want to do something to find meaning in this tragedy" mentality. The same mentality you see in real life with, for example, the families of murder or terrorism victims, or of people who suffer from having a mentally ill family member, who channel their grief and sorrow into political activism or philanthropy. There's nothing metatextual about it. Honestly, this obsession with metatextual aspects of these films is really one of the most incomprehensible things with a lot of ST defenders, along with the assumption that all criticism must also be metatextual. I don't care about fan service; I would've been fine if Luke was never in these ST movies at all, as long as the story was good. The fact that so many defenses fall back on metatextual lines ("This had to happen because the plot said so!" "This character was only set up to get another character over!" "This story wasn't ABOUT that!" "You're just mad because you didn't get the fan service you wanted!") is highly revealing of the films' inadequacy from a storytelling perspective. You yourself said that he was already beyond help by the time Luke lifted his blade. He was just "embracing" what he was going to do anyway. And I WISH the entire movie was (consciously) bleak and cynical, because at least that would've been coherent. But it's not: the movie ends with happy, uplifting hope, "we have all we need," the remaining 12 members of the Resistance chatting casually with each other on the Falcon after all their comrades had just died, and Luke's legend inspiring everyone. Luke's final encounter with the tragic, damned-from-birth figure who was his nephew involves him casually brushing his shoulder like a boss and talking down to Kylo like he was just a stupid kid, treating his diseased nephew with condescending mockery, not a sign of sorrow on his face. We are given sight gags in TFA to make us laugh at Kylo when he tantrum-smashes a console in rage, and are encouraged to cheer when he humiliates himself in front of his entire army, and are supposed to just momentarily forget that at the end of the day, he is a schizophrenic young man who was never in control of himself and never had a chance to be good. And the merchandise and kids' shows and Disney rides continue. That's the entire problem: not only are these films bleak and cynical, they are completely oblivious about how bleak and cynical they are. What does it say about society that a popular movie is holding up a character essentially suffering from lifelong mental illness, labeling him as hopeless, and treating him as worthy of mockery, laughter, contempt, and ultimately destruction? Like, maybe since I’ve had depression for most of my life and have done volunteer work with schizophrenic people, I’m rather sensitive to this, and know what it’s like when people are ostracized, made fun of, and treated like a ticking time bomb over personal demons they have little to no control over, but I can’t be the only one who’s troubled with this.
|
|
Chiral
Salacious Crumb
Posts: 72,901
|
Post by Chiral on Feb 11, 2019 17:36:49 GMT -5
Also important IMO, Leia telling Luke "I know my son is gone." I feel like when Kylo and Leia connected through the Force early on in TLJ, she either sensed that Ben was just about gone or completely out the door. I think him not firing the cannons was the last gasp of Ben Solo, and from there on out he was only Kylo Ren (see later on when he orders the troops to kill everyone in the Crait base, his mother included). It makes the dark side to be almost like a disease. Exactly my point. Luke realises Ben is gone. Leia realises and admits Ben is gone. Rey believes that just as Luke did with Vader, she can bring Ben back to the light. Ben promptly shows her just how terribly wrong she was.
Many serial killers' paths are seemingly set in stone from an early age by a pattern of child abuse, and I don't see Ben as being any different. He's a tragic monster, but a monster nonetheless. And that's another point to why I hate the "Rey is a Mary Sue" stuff, she spends most of TLJ being completely wrong and totally fails in her goals.
|
|
|
Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 11, 2019 17:41:55 GMT -5
We're not talking about his reputation or "myth." We are talking about his demonstrated capabilities, inclinations, and lessons we know for a fact he's learned. His "myth" in the galaxy has nothing, zip to do with the question of him not knowing better about how to handle the dark side, or the lessons he learned from all of his training (again: whatever happened to "always in motion is the future?"). Bringing up his reputation is a sleight of hand which has nothing to do with the question at hand. He's handling his reaction to failure, because he didn't know how to handle the Dark Side in this instance (remember, Palpatine wandered around under the noses of the Jedi Council for three movies and nobody noticed it in him either). He's handling self-doubt and bitterness that everybody looks to him to set things right. He makes it very clear he's had enough, f*** the galaxy, he wants to be left to die in peace. Yes, it's selfish, yes, it's self-pitying, and yes, his reputation absolutely plays a part in that. Or being wilfully ignorant. This is Star Wars, not Ulysses. There's not a ton of hidden context here. All of what I've posted is either spoken in dialogue or borne out by the characters' actions and isn't particularly subtle about it. I've completely ignored secondary media sources. It's literally right there on the screen. Leia cannot put herself in that position, because she's taken on responsibilities that require her to put aside personal tragedy for the greater good. She did it when Alderaan was destroyed, and she has to do it again now. She's the Iron Lady of this universe, the one least likely to crumble when things go bad. Luke on the other hand sees himself and the Jedi as part of the problem. He openly mocks the possibility of facing down the First Order with his lightsaber, knowing that all it would accomplish is giving Ben and the First Order the kill they most greatly desire. You know, I agree on the tone, but it's a storytelling conceit. It can't be all bleakness and cynicism, there has to be some kind of contrast to end on or there really isn't any point in coming back for the sequel. "Hey, folks, everything sucks and most of your heroes are dead or will die pretty soon. See you next time, maybe?" As for Ben, see my post above. He's a tragic figure who never had a chance from birth to be good, but those types of people exist in this world. Eileen Wuornos had a heartbreaking childhood, but that didn't stop people being happy to see her executed, nor did it make her eventual fate any less deserved. In the days where the mass-murdering antagonist of the first Avengers movie gets a retcon that says he was a good guy all along, having an antagonist in a Disney-owned franchise who is both sympathetic and unapologetically evil is refreshing.
|
|
|
Post by Hit Girl on Feb 11, 2019 17:44:22 GMT -5
If he's doomed to be bad and never stood a chance of being anything else, then there was no point in wasting so much screentime on his supposed internal conflict.
|
|
|
Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 11, 2019 17:56:58 GMT -5
If he's doomed to be bad and never stood a chance of being anything else, then there was no point in wasting so much screentime on his supposed internal conflict. His internal conflict, as I've mentioned, mirrors Luke's about measuring up. Ben wants so hard to be Vader, believes Vader needs to be avenged, but initially lacks the belief that he can do it. Snoke even mocks him for being a Vader wannabe. Rey believes his conflict is the Light and Dark Side battling for his soul, but it turns out she's wrong because she's a dumbass kid who makes assumptions about something she knows the square root of Jack shit about.
|
|
|
Post by Cyno on Feb 11, 2019 18:10:18 GMT -5
If he's doomed to be bad and never stood a chance of being anything else, then there was no point in wasting so much screentime on his supposed internal conflict. His internal conflict, as I've mentioned, mirrors Luke's about measuring up. Ben wants so hard to be Vader, believes Vader needs to be avenged, but initially lacks the belief that he can do it. Snoke even mocks him for being a Vader wannabe. Rey believes his conflict is the Light and Dark Side battling for his soul, but it turns out she's wrong because she's a dumbass kid who makes assumptions about something she knows the square root of Jack shit about. Yeah, the Dark Side already won. Kylo Ren's only struggle with that is with stamping out the last remnants of the Light Side within him and he handles that with killing his own father in cold blood. There was a brief flicker when he was in his TIE Fighter and he didn't fire on the bridge where his mother was, but that was it. Not even Vader consciously kills any of his own family like Kylo Ren killed Han. Rey thinks she can pull with Kylo Ren what Luke did with Vader, and maybe when Ren kills Snoke she thinks that's his moment of redemption. And so does the audience. Then Kylo reveals the whole thing was a power grab and a giant recruitment pitch for Rey to basically remake the Sith in everything but name with her as his apprentice.
Still hoping for Anakin's Force Ghost to make an appearance in Episode IX saying something along the lines of "That boy ain't right" about his grandson.
|
|
|
Post by A Platypus Rave on Feb 11, 2019 18:14:28 GMT -5
His internal conflict, as I've mentioned, mirrors Luke's about measuring up. Ben wants so hard to be Vader, believes Vader needs to be avenged, but initially lacks the belief that he can do it. Snoke even mocks him for being a Vader wannabe. Rey believes his conflict is the Light and Dark Side battling for his soul, but it turns out she's wrong because she's a dumbass kid who makes assumptions about something she knows the square root of Jack shit about. Yeah, the Dark Side already won. Kylo Ren's only struggle with that is with stamping out the last remnants of the Light Side within him and he handles that with killing his own father in cold blood. There was a brief flicker when he was in his TIE Fighter and he didn't fire on the bridge where his mother was, but that was it. Not even Vader consciously kills any of his own family like Kylo Ren killed Han. Rey thinks she can pull with Kylo Ren what Luke did with Vader, and maybe when Ren kills Snoke she thinks that's his moment of redemption. And so does the audience. Then Kylo reveals the whole thing was a power grab and a giant recruitment pitch for Rey to basically remake the Sith in everything but name with her as his apprentice. Still hoping for Anakin's Force Ghost to make an appearance in Episode IX saying something along the lines of "That boy ain't right" about his grandson.
only if he is played by Mike Judge >_>
|
|
|
Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 11, 2019 18:19:27 GMT -5
His internal conflict, as I've mentioned, mirrors Luke's about measuring up. Ben wants so hard to be Vader, believes Vader needs to be avenged, but initially lacks the belief that he can do it. Snoke even mocks him for being a Vader wannabe. Rey believes his conflict is the Light and Dark Side battling for his soul, but it turns out she's wrong because she's a dumbass kid who makes assumptions about something she knows the square root of Jack shit about. Yeah, the Dark Side already won. Kylo Ren's only struggle with that is with stamping out the last remnants of the Light Side within him and he handles that with killing his own father in cold blood. There was a brief flicker when he was in his TIE Fighter and he didn't fire on the bridge where his mother was, but that was it. Not even Vader consciously kills any of his own family like Kylo Ren killed Han. Rey thinks she can pull with Kylo Ren what Luke did with Vader, and maybe when Ren kills Snoke she thinks that's his moment of redemption. And so does the audience. Then Kylo reveals the whole thing was a power grab and a giant recruitment pitch for Rey to basically remake the Sith in everything but name with her as his apprentice. Still hoping for Anakin's Force Ghost to make an appearance in Episode IX saying something along the lines of "That boy ain't right" about his grandson.
The moment he offs Snoke is his "He's starting to believe" moment. The last of his lingering doubts that he can live up to Vader's legacy are gone, and now he's The Man. The thing is, just like Rey he knows f*** all about anything, and also like Rey he is getting by on raw power alone. Honestly, it's kinda begging for an Anakin Force ghost appearance.
|
|