Chainsaw
T
A very BAD man.
It is what it is
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Post by Chainsaw on Oct 26, 2018 17:38:01 GMT -5
I think the only evidence I need to see he's been a harmful stereotype for Indians is that people to this day still call any gas station ran by an Indian man a "Kwik-e-mart" usually in as horribly racist of an accent as they possibly can and think it's a very funny joke. If you believe that hasn't had harmful effects on the way people view and treat Indians in the US, you are flat out wrong. I agree with that. I feel bad about all of this, because Apu is actually one of my favorite characters on the show. He's proven throughout the years that he has deeper layers beyond the Kwik-E-Mart, and has perhaps had the best growth of any of the ancillary characters in Springfield. But I also get where Hari was coming from with his doc, about the harm it's done to Indian Americans across the country, and his own struggles with the character's legacy. And the way that the Simpsons creators, Al Jean in particular, have dealt with these concerns have been very insular and wrong-headed, and hasn't helped the conversation at all. So, I dunno what the answer to this is. I honestly hate the idea of them possibly writing Apu out of the show, but it's not like it'd be the first time it's happened.
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Post by Muskrat on Oct 26, 2018 17:38:40 GMT -5
I think the only evidence I need to see he's been a harmful stereotype for Indians is that people to this day still call any gas station ran by an Indian man a "Kwik-e-mart" usually in as horribly racist of an accent as they possibly can and think it's a very funny joke. If you believe that hasn't had harmful effects on the way people view and treat Indians in the US, you are flat out wrong. I live in a very racist town, in a fairly racist area of Canada. I hear all sorts of racial slurs on a near daily basis, and never once in my 32 years have I heard someone call a convenience store a Kwik E Mart, or the owner Apu. And there are ALOT of Indian owned convenience stores/gas stations in my area.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 26, 2018 17:39:04 GMT -5
Lisa needs to break the 4th wall and complain about Apu...then again maybe she has, I haven’t watched in years. So many more important problems in the world today, that could use people putting effort in to change than this. Who's to say they're not? The documentary at the heart of the argument was made by Indian-Americans who wanted to discuss an issue that's dogged them since they were children; they have every right to do that, and I'm sure they're involved in plenty of other endeavors, as well, whether in the realm of comedy or in the discussion of social issues. Still, yeah, even Hank Azaria said "Maybe we should hire a South Asian actor to take the role"; just writing him out is lazy. Not for nothing, man, but it's not about us or our anecdotes; if anyone is calling Indian people "Apu" or whatever, I imagine the people of Indian descent who are the targets of the insults and jokes would be the ones to know it firsthand, not so much us white guys.
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Oct 26, 2018 17:59:51 GMT -5
Good. Then we can stop giving this guy any more attention. Of course he’s mad again, because they didn’t produce a script he likes. He was clearly angling for a job and rather than do that they went “Ok, it’s problem, Apu is fictional, so he’s just won’t be drawn anymore”.
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Post by Natural Born Farmer on Oct 26, 2018 18:08:06 GMT -5
Said it in another thread, the character has been much more fleshed out than just a stereotype. Voiced by a white actor is not ideal but it’s not as if the whole schtick is “lol Indian”. In some instances his grasp of American culture and history has been shown to far outstrip those of the white (yellow?) characters. If being voiced by an Indian actor would end all this, just make that happen.
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Oct 26, 2018 18:13:17 GMT -5
f***ing stupid.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2018 18:15:05 GMT -5
I really do think getting rid of and ultimately replacing the character probably is for the best. Recasting him would be an okay solution, but I feel like by now he just has too much baggage around him to bother with anymore.
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chrom
Backup Wench
Master of the rare undecuple post
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Post by chrom on Oct 26, 2018 18:25:17 GMT -5
"If at first you don't get your way, whine and throw a temper tantrum until you do."
President Bill Clinton
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Post by wildojinx on Oct 26, 2018 18:27:09 GMT -5
So I guess the Simpsons will have to do all their shopping at Monstro Mart now. EDIT: Or they get James Woods permanently (i'm only half joking).
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 26, 2018 18:31:58 GMT -5
Good. Then we can stop giving this guy any more attention. Of course he’s mad again, because they didn’t produce a script he likes. He was clearly angling for a job and rather than do that they went “Ok, it’s problem, Apu is fictional, so he’s just won’t be drawn anymore”. If it was so "clear" that's all he was angling for, then why is there any controversy to speak of?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2018 18:55:51 GMT -5
I'm immensely frustrated by all the posters in here going "Stupid!" or acting as though he's just throwing a fit and whining.
It's so frustrating to see people refuse to see other peoples point of view and just assume they're being stupid, or acting in bad faith. Maybe he's just hurt in a way by it you don't understand.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2018 18:58:54 GMT -5
Always a mistake to cave in to such tantrums. Spoil the child and he will just demand more and more.
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Post by Starshine on Oct 26, 2018 18:59:51 GMT -5
There was a legitimate concern regarding the character. So I appreciate the decision to remove him from the show going forward. Though even if you still like the character, it's not like they're writing him out of the shows history. You can still enjoy him in past episodes.
With all that said, trying to argue that the criticism is coming from an insincere place is just trying to ignore the actual problem. You don't want to be that person. History is never kind to them.
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Glitch
King Koopa
Not Going To Die; Childs, we're goin' out to give Blair the test. If he tries to make it back here and we're not with him... burn him.
Watching you.
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Post by Glitch on Oct 26, 2018 19:16:49 GMT -5
It's incredibly easy to say "people are so sensitive " when you're not the one being made fun of by being called apu growing up.
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Post by Cyno on Oct 26, 2018 19:21:37 GMT -5
There are a lot of good Indian or South Asian actors and comedians that could take the role and make it relevant again. But then I guess that means doing something new and god forbid The Simpsons do that.
As for the controversy, man are people's racist blind spots showing on this. And this isn't anything new either. Even The Big Bang Theory made fun of Apu's casual racial stereotyping years before this documentary came out. And as much as I actually like BBT, that is about the last show I'd think of for cutting edge humor that also serves as social commentary.
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Post by Gravedigger's Biscuits on Oct 26, 2018 19:22:41 GMT -5
I think everyone can see that Apu is an offensive stereotype, and him being voiced by a white actor is clearly problematic.
However (and I've brought this up on here before), let's say we go back in time and change Apu from a convenience store owner voiced by Hank Azaria to any other type of business owner voiced by an actual Indian actor, complete with accent.
How would that have changed people being picked on and called Apu by racist arseholes?
The Simpsons is one of the most watched television shows in the world, any notable character with an accent was always going to be imitated the same way. I don't see how having an actual Indian person portray the character or changing his profession from something less stereotypical affects anything. Dumb racists are always going to be a thing, if it wasn't calling people Apu it'd be something else.
And at this point changing the character of Apu would mean nothing really. It'd be hollow, any damage has already been done. I can completely understand why they're just planning to retire the character. All changing the character would do is cause more complaints.
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Oct 26, 2018 19:28:59 GMT -5
I'm immensely frustrated by all the posters in here going "Stupid!" or acting as though he's just throwing a fit and whining. It's so frustrating to see people refuse to see other peoples point of view and just assume they're being stupid, or acting in bad faith. Maybe he's just hurt in a way by it you don't understand. People have a tendency to go "I LIKE THING" and don't realise that something can still be problematic even when it's something that you like. I grew up with friends of Indian descent and they copped so much Apu related shit.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 26, 2018 19:50:34 GMT -5
I think everyone can see that Apu is an offensive stereotype, and him being voiced by a white actor is clearly problematic. However (and I've brought this up on here before), let's say we go back in time and change Apu from a convenience store owner voiced by Hank Azaria to any other type of business owner voiced by an actual Indian actor, complete with accent. How would that have changed people being picked on and called Apu by racist arseholes? The Simpsons is one of the most watched television shows in the world, any notable character with an accent was always going to be imitated the same way. I don't see how having an actual Indian person portray the character or changing his profession from something less stereotypical affects anything. Dumb racists are always going to be a thing, if it wasn't calling people Apu it'd be something else. And at this point changing the character of Apu would mean nothing really. It'd be hollow, any damage has already been done. I can completely understand why they're just planning to retire the character. All changing the character would do is cause more complaints. Deep down, bigoted twits will always find an excuse to be bigoted twits, agreed. That said, there's no avoiding that Apu checked off a laundry list of stereotypes; yes he has evolved over time in some of the show's greatest episodes, but if he's depicted another way it lessens what level of ammunition those bigots might've wanted to draw from. "Ha, you're like that guy with the silly voice who runs a convenience store!" has more of a blow to it than if Apu was, say, in any other job or had a voice that sounded closer to an actual Indian/South Asian person. A less stereotyped depiction would simply make him less of an insult to toss at Indian people, since the depiction wouldn't be playing into pre-existing stereotypes, which is the key. I guess it'd be like calling a black man "Dr. Huxtable" in the 80s, if we put aside the obvious eventual Cosby disgrace; it'd still be a dick thing to do, but it'd be telling someone "you're a successful college-trained professional!" rather than pre-existing harmful stereotypes about African-Americans. I guess I'd also compare it with a character like, say, Fat Tony: dude's obviously an Italian mafioso stereotype, and that can come with baggage, but at least Italians have just about thoroughly been integrated into US society, and there's no shortage of Italian business leaders, politicians, judges, and movie stars and celebrities for people to look to as examples of Italian culture beyond Fat Tony. For so long, Apu was really one of the only mainstream depictions of an Indian character, and even now we still have a relative dearth of Indians in positions of power, authority, or fame in the US outside of a few notable exceptions, so he still kind of sticks out like a sore thumb. Again, I'd argue that writing him off is lazy; there's the potential to do funny, really good things with the character, and acknowledge "yeah, this character comes from another era, but we can evolve in ways that work". Just getting rid of him feels senseless to me, but I also haven't watched the Simpsons in years so I guess it doesn't get me too worked up.
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 41,890
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Oct 26, 2018 20:05:38 GMT -5
I'm immensely frustrated by all the posters in here going "Stupid!" or acting as though he's just throwing a fit and whining. It's so frustrating to see people refuse to see other peoples point of view and just assume they're being stupid, or acting in bad faith. Maybe he's just hurt in a way by it you don't understand. People have a tendency to go "I LIKE THING" and don't realise that something can still be problematic even when it's something that you like. I grew up with friends of Indian descent and they copped so much Apu related shit. People have a tendency to go “I HATE THIS THING” and don’t realize the thing doesn’t have to change to suit their tastes.
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Post by Alyce: Old Media Enthusiast on Oct 26, 2018 20:06:51 GMT -5
They could always just hire an actor of Indian descent to voice the character. That seems like the easiest option, IMO. Azaria's even fine with no longer doing the role.
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