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Post by BlackoutCreature on Oct 27, 2018 5:25:06 GMT -5
I'll just say the same thing I say whenever a Simpson's news story comes up - just end the show already.
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Post by sfvega on Oct 27, 2018 5:31:42 GMT -5
I think the only evidence I need to see he's been a harmful stereotype for Indians is that people to this day still call any gas station ran by an Indian man a "Kwik-e-mart" usually in as horribly racist of an accent as they possibly can and think it's a very funny joke. If you believe that hasn't had harmful effects on the way people view and treat Indians in the US, you are flat out wrong. I disagree. And I've been called Apu just for being brown, I'm not even Indian. But you can't scapegoat The Simpsons for people's own small-minded, ignorant racism. Kunta kinte has been used as a racist joke as well, but that would never reflect poorly on Roots. If you think how The Simpsons portrayed Apu in a negative or racist manner, that is its own thing. But blaming The Simpsons when some idiot uses that character as a direct, hurtful racist insult, that's kind of absolving the person who is the main problem to begin with. When I got called it, it never crossed my mind to be pissed at a TV show. It was just a racist person being racist. Don't point the blame away from them in any form or fashion. Everyone should be responsible for their own actions. The Simpsons are not responsible for how Indian people are treated by other people. The Simpsons are responsible for how they portrayed Indian people. |
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Oct 27, 2018 5:32:49 GMT -5
I'll just say the same thing I say whenever a Simpson's news story comes up - just end the show already. Show is still enjoyable and still has some good episodes. No need to end it, especially since it still has a large and devoted audience that still watches, |
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The Unconquered Sun
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Post by The Unconquered Sun on Oct 27, 2018 5:58:27 GMT -5
Willie hasn't ever been the sole representative of Scottish people in prime time entertainment. Apu had been one of the only - and at time perhaps the only - prominent Indian characters on TV from 1989 until late into the last decade. I’ll put it this way; Craig Ferguson is Scottish and was the first non American to host a talk show for over a decade. He’s barely the stereotype of a Scottish person and more...well, Craig Ferguson. Not counting Kanal Nayyar’s one week stint as host of the same show before James Cordon took over, I can’t think of any host of a major talk show (so not smaller network, internet or Netflix) who wasn’t a white male of some kind. Oprah Winfrey says "hi" |
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Post by eJm on Oct 27, 2018 6:00:58 GMT -5
I’ll put it this way; Craig Ferguson is Scottish and was the first non American to host a talk show for over a decade. He’s barely the stereotype of a Scottish person and more...well, Craig Ferguson. Not counting Kanal Nayyar’s one week stint as host of the same show before James Cordon took over, I can’t think of any host of a major talk show (so not smaller network, internet or Netflix) who wasn’t a white male of some kind. Oprah Winfrey says "hi" I was talking about late night but fair point. |
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Oct 27, 2018 6:11:15 GMT -5
Willie hasn't ever been the sole representative of Scottish people in prime time entertainment. Apu had been one of the only - and at time perhaps the only - prominent Indian characters on TV from 1989 until late into the last decade. I’ll put it this way; Craig Ferguson is Scottish and was the first non American to host a talk show for over a decade. He’s barely the stereotype of a Scottish person and more...well, Craig Ferguson. Not counting Kanal Nayyar’s one week stint as host of the same show before James Cordon took over, I can’t think of any host of a major talk show (so not smaller network, internet or Netflix) who wasn’t a white male of some kind. Arsenio Hall was very popular late night talk show for a while |
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Derk!
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Post by Derk! on Oct 27, 2018 7:38:27 GMT -5
If one were to remove all offensive stereotypes on the show, you might not have many characters left at all.
Honestly, though. I haven't watched the show in years. So this has no impact on my enjoyment of shitposts, memes and clips from various Simpsons pages that I follow.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Oct 27, 2018 8:04:44 GMT -5
I think everyone can see that Apu is an offensive stereotype, and him being voiced by a white actor is clearly problematic. However (and I've brought this up on here before), let's say we go back in time and change Apu from a convenience store owner voiced by Hank Azaria to any other type of business owner voiced by an actual Indian actor, complete with accent. How would that have changed people being picked on and called Apu by racist arseholes? The Simpsons is one of the most watched television shows in the world, any notable character with an accent was always going to be imitated the same way. I don't see how having an actual Indian person portray the character or changing his profession from something less stereotypical affects anything. Dumb racists are always going to be a thing, if it wasn't calling people Apu it'd be something else. And at this point changing the character of Apu would mean nothing really. It'd be hollow, any damage has already been done. I can completely understand why they're just planning to retire the character. All changing the character would do is cause more complaints. Deep down, bigoted twits will always find an excuse to be bigoted twits, agreed. That said, there's no avoiding that Apu checked off a laundry list of stereotypes; yes he has evolved over time in some of the show's greatest episodes, but if he's depicted another way it lessens what level of ammunition those bigots might've wanted to draw from. "Ha, you're like that guy with the silly voice who runs a convenience store!" has more of a blow to it than if Apu was, say, in any other job or had a voice that sounded closer to an actual Indian/South Asian person. A less stereotyped depiction would simply make him less of an insult to toss at Indian people, since the depiction wouldn't be playing into pre-existing stereotypes, which is the key. I guess it'd be like calling a black man "Dr. Huxtable" in the 80s, if we put aside the obvious eventual Cosby disgrace; it'd still be a dick thing to do, but it'd be telling someone "you're a successful college-trained professional!" rather than pre-existing harmful stereotypes about African-Americans. I guess I'd also compare it with a character like, say, Fat Tony: dude's obviously an Italian mafioso stereotype, and that can come with baggage, but at least Italians have just about thoroughly been integrated into US society, and there's no shortage of Italian business leaders, politicians, judges, and movie stars and celebrities for people to look to as examples of Italian culture beyond Fat Tony. For so long, Apu was really one of the only mainstream depictions of an Indian character, and even now we still have a relative dearth of Indians in positions of power, authority, or fame in the US outside of a few notable exceptions, so he still kind of sticks out like a sore thumb. Again, I'd argue that writing him off is lazy; there's the potential to do funny, really good things with the character, and acknowledge "yeah, this character comes from another era, but we can evolve in ways that work". Just getting rid of him feels senseless to me, but I also haven't watched the Simpsons in years so I guess it doesn't get me too worked up. If going on character merit alone, Groundskeeper Willie is a much worse offensive stereotype. |
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Post by BlackoutCreature on Oct 27, 2018 8:31:14 GMT -5
I'll just say the same thing I say whenever a Simpson's news story comes up - just end the show already. Show is still enjoyable and still has some good episodes. No need to end it, especially since it still has a large and devoted audience that still watches, It's a boring, tired show that regularly recycles its own plots and has long since outlived any relevance it had in American pop culture. It has destroyed its own legacy with nearly two decades of stories that range from mediocre to horrible. I'll say it again - just end the show already. |
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Post by eJm on Oct 27, 2018 8:44:18 GMT -5
Deep down, bigoted twits will always find an excuse to be bigoted twits, agreed. That said, there's no avoiding that Apu checked off a laundry list of stereotypes; yes he has evolved over time in some of the show's greatest episodes, but if he's depicted another way it lessens what level of ammunition those bigots might've wanted to draw from. "Ha, you're like that guy with the silly voice who runs a convenience store!" has more of a blow to it than if Apu was, say, in any other job or had a voice that sounded closer to an actual Indian/South Asian person. A less stereotyped depiction would simply make him less of an insult to toss at Indian people, since the depiction wouldn't be playing into pre-existing stereotypes, which is the key. I guess it'd be like calling a black man "Dr. Huxtable" in the 80s, if we put aside the obvious eventual Cosby disgrace; it'd still be a dick thing to do, but it'd be telling someone "you're a successful college-trained professional!" rather than pre-existing harmful stereotypes about African-Americans. I guess I'd also compare it with a character like, say, Fat Tony: dude's obviously an Italian mafioso stereotype, and that can come with baggage, but at least Italians have just about thoroughly been integrated into US society, and there's no shortage of Italian business leaders, politicians, judges, and movie stars and celebrities for people to look to as examples of Italian culture beyond Fat Tony. For so long, Apu was really one of the only mainstream depictions of an Indian character, and even now we still have a relative dearth of Indians in positions of power, authority, or fame in the US outside of a few notable exceptions, so he still kind of sticks out like a sore thumb. Again, I'd argue that writing him off is lazy; there's the potential to do funny, really good things with the character, and acknowledge "yeah, this character comes from another era, but we can evolve in ways that work". Just getting rid of him feels senseless to me, but I also haven't watched the Simpsons in years so I guess it doesn't get me too worked up. If going on character merit alone, Groundskeeper Willie is a much worse offensive stereotype. But going back to my Craig Ferguson example, he wasn’t asked to play Groundskeeper Willie for most of his career. Heck, his break out role was a posh Englishman on The Drew Carey Show. Nor was his run on The Late Late Show a collection of Scottish stereotypes. The only Asian Indian representation on television at one point was Apu and there are dozens of actors who have said that the only roles they wanted those actors for was for Apu-like roles. It was literally the last decade when people were able to break out from that. |
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Post by eJm on Oct 27, 2018 8:53:59 GMT -5
I’ll put it this way; Craig Ferguson is Scottish and was the first non American to host a talk show for over a decade. He’s barely the stereotype of a Scottish person and more...well, Craig Ferguson. Not counting Kanal Nayyar’s one week stint as host of the same show before James Cordon took over, I can’t think of any host of a major talk show (so not smaller network, internet or Netflix) who wasn’t a white male of some kind. Arsenio Hall was very popular late night talk show for a while Sure, but like the others, he was in syndication and put on a big network so honestly, he’s harder to count in my example. |
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Oct 27, 2018 9:00:59 GMT -5
Show is still enjoyable and still has some good episodes. No need to end it, especially since it still has a large and devoted audience that still watches, It's a boring, tired show that regularly recycles its own plots and has long since outlived any relevance it had in American pop culture. It has destroyed its own legacy with nearly two decades of stories that range from mediocre to horrible. I'll say it again - just end the show already. Simpson’s are still relevant as they are still quoted quite often and no shortage of Simpson’s memes. Saying the legacy is destroyed isn’t close to true as it is considered by most to be one of the greatest tv shows if all time. In your opinion the show ranges from mediocre to horrible and while there have been some stinkers there have also been really good episodes during the last twenty years as well. No need to end the show as long as people are watching. New episodes will do nothing to tarnish the shows we’ll established legacy in pop culture and tv history |
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Oct 27, 2018 9:18:27 GMT -5
I think the Simpsons is still a good show. Not as clever as it was in its first fifteen years but FOX has a verified hit in the Simpsons time slot which is easier than trying to replace it with one of the MANY shows they create that dont make it a season.
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Post by Hit Girl on Oct 27, 2018 9:21:20 GMT -5
How many Simpsons lines are quoted or made into memes that originate post season 12?
People may still be watching the show, but it hasn't been culturally relevant for over a decade.
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Post by BorneAgain on Oct 27, 2018 9:35:37 GMT -5
Well if nothing else, I'm just hoping for a few decent steamed hams edits coming from this.
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Johnny Flamingo
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Oct 27, 2018 10:09:30 GMT -5
How many Simpsons lines are quoted or made into memes that originate post season 12? People may still be watching the show, but it hasn't been culturally relevant for over a decade. I’ve seen this Homet quote from last year: “ If the beer's in a frosted mug, you're not alcoholic, you're an aficionado.” And I’ll see memes from current episodes on various message boards. The Simpson’s aren’t the pop culture phenomenon they used to be but they are still relevant. |
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Post by abjordans on Oct 27, 2018 10:21:17 GMT -5
Watch this video a couple days ago but a very good video on the subject. Man, I think this really carved up every point made in the Apu doc. The whole point of the Apu character has always been that on the surface he is a stereotype, but under the hood he is anything but. To insert a perfectly timed Simpsons reference- That’s the joke. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2018 10:59:26 GMT -5
It's a boring, tired show that regularly recycles its own plots and has long since outlived any relevance it had in American pop culture. It has destroyed its own legacy with nearly two decades of stories that range from mediocre to horrible. I'll say it again - just end the show already. Simpson’s are still relevant as they are still quoted quite often and no shortage of Simpson’s memes. Saying the legacy is destroyed isn’t close to true as it is considered by most to be one of the greatest tv shows if all time. In your opinion the show ranges from mediocre to horrible and while there have been some stinkers there have also been really good episodes during the last twenty years as well. No need to end the show as long as people are watching. New episodes will do nothing to tarnish the shows we’ll established legacy in pop culture and tv history I know we're not supposed to be negative here, but honestly, I just cannot understand the logic some people have when they go "It's still great!" when you just had the Season 29 finale and Season 30 premiere be "Bart in a Coma" episodes, with the latter just running into the ground the same two damn jokes about Gal Gadot playing Lisa and Homer mistaking Actor Marge for his real wife. Besides, I can point out the "really good" episodes from Seasons 11 to 30 with less than 10 digits on my hands and point out the "horrible" episodes by the dozens. Considering that accounts for well over 400 episodes, I would not say that it justifies saying "It's still great". Then again, I'm the kind of person who frequents Dead Homer Society and Me Blog Write Good (even convinced the latter to start a Ko.Fi), so I might just be the kind of fan The Simpsons writers have grown to despise. Anyway, on topic, while some of my favorite episodes when the show WAS good involved Apu, I do believe it is somewhat tone-deaf to poo-poo someone pointing out how the stereotype impacted them when you realize that up until the 2000s, all Indian-Americans could play as in media were convenience store clerks and cab drivers, with non South Asians playing serious roles. Do I think Hari hijacked his own documentary to go after Hank Azaria directly? I think so, but I also look at it this way; older people will minimize complaints about racism by simply going back and talking about how racist it was when THEY grew up, and how the young folks have it so much better. |
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Post by Cyno on Oct 27, 2018 11:29:03 GMT -5
Comedy in 20 years is going to be insufferably sterile. People probably said the same thing when Minstrel shows no longer became acceptable in mainstream society. |
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Post by Zaq "That Guy" Buzzkill on Oct 27, 2018 11:46:16 GMT -5
It's a little silly given the creator of the documentary suggested just changing Apu from the kwik-e-mart employee to it's owner or something along those lines. He didn't want to get rid of Apu. Doesn't Apu already own the Kwik-E-Mart (or co-own with his brother) and runs it his own way? It's not like he's the equivalent of someone behind the register at a McDonalds with a boss in the same building telling him what to do. Or did the documentary suggest he should be the owner of the whole (presumably national) Kwik-E-Mart organization? Also, didn't they already address Apu's stereotypicality a few years ago? tv.avclub.com/a-visitor-takes-a-long-look-at-apu-on-a-funny-thoughtf-1798186427There was the one episode when they said Kwik-E-Mart was a chain and Apu just ran the one store, which is why he and Homer went all the way to India so Apu could get his job back. (by the way, was that guy really the head of the Kwik-E-Mart?) |
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