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Post by cabbageboy on Jan 14, 2019 8:57:26 GMT -5
Edge was probably the best heel in wrestling from 2006-10, so it's laughable to put him in a conversation like this. There's a difference between guys in modern day WWE having padded stats in terms of titles won and guys that just didn't have the heat or cred to even be in the spot to begin with. And I still disagree with Del Rio. Back in 2011 or so I don't think anyone had that much of a problem with him main eventing. It was his subsequent face run and then his terrible return run (Mexican America, League of Nations) that soured people on him. But his initial run as an arrogant rich heel, sports cars, Ricardo announcing him? Absolutely main event level guy.
Orton is another guy with padded stats but I can't say that I've never thought he was any semblance of a main event guy. Sheamus is really the main guy mentioned here that in no way, shape, or form should have been a main event guy and wouldn't have been in previous eras. He's the one guy here that when I first saw him in a dark match in May 2009 I thought "Wow, that guy sucks. He'll be gone in 6 months." In about that time he was WWE champion, haha.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2019 9:02:01 GMT -5
Might be unpopular around these parts but for me, it’s easily The Miz.
I have yet to see him in a great match. He’s had good matches but no GREAT matches. And when you consider he’s been employed since 2004 and has worked with nearly everybody, that’s pretty shocking. Even Daniel Bryan couldn’t get a good match out of him. .
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Jan 14, 2019 9:47:52 GMT -5
Sheamus is really the main guy mentioned here that in no way, shape, or form should have been a main event guy and wouldn't have been in previous eras. See, I think the opposite. While it can certainly be debated as to whether he's main event material in the current era, he'd have been a main event fixture pretty much any other era you put him in.
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Post by SparkyPlugg on Jan 14, 2019 9:58:33 GMT -5
Ric Flair, he had no where near the talent his resume suggests. His matches were all the same as were his promos. He even had a recycled gimmick.
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Post by cabbageboy on Jan 14, 2019 11:32:04 GMT -5
Well, okay. Maybe if someone Sheamus's size showed up in the 1920s or 30s he would have main evented then. For previous eras of the WWF though? The ultra pale look and Irish accent would have rendered him midcard at best. I certainly can't fathom him main eventing in the 80s. Maybe he could have had a cup of coffee like Bigelow or Tatanka during the talent strapped mid 90s.
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EyeofTyr
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Post by EyeofTyr on Jan 14, 2019 11:39:45 GMT -5
There's some contenders out there with Del Rio and Orton, and Charlotte Flair... But I'm going to go a little out of left field for most maybe and present the example of Edge. Maybe not most, but boy howdy is he up there. I’m surprised Edge wasn’t brought up earlier. Unlike some mentioned he was pretty darn good for a lot of his career and had an exciting career with crowd reactions pretty much throughout. But when he retired he had the most title reigns in WWE history. A claim like that seems like you should be in at least top 10 greatest of all time territory, if too 5. Perhaps he isn’t quite right for this thread title, but it’s a disproportionate amount of accomplishments from some perspectives. See, outside of E&C and a brief time in the 2000's when his main event status really got going I don't think Edge had all that impressive of a body of work. I often times find it's this weird wrestling fan programming that because the WWE, because respected people in the business, and others have said Edge had a good run, people believe it. But when pressed they often times struggle to name matches or moments outside of the usual suspects of the very few examples the WWE machine always uses as why he's so great. Which isn't a sign of someone that's truly great, it's a sign of someone that was said to be great by so many people it became the defacto belief. Like he's a more successful variant of the HHH experiment WWE tries to program people into believing. Nevermind I think a lot of people look back on his career with rose tinted glasses, as the twilight of his career was actively bad. Not just from a storyline perspective or the severely diminished reactions he was usually getting, Edge's body was visibly falling apart and it showed in a lot of his ring work. I'm not saying he's the worst ever, but compare all of this to the accomplishment you mentioned? To all of the titles he held and things he won? It feels out of balance on someone like him. His accomplishments read like an Austin or Rock, but Edge very much was a HHH. He was the guy that fought The Guy, not The Guy himself. There's no shame in that either.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Jan 14, 2019 11:49:02 GMT -5
Great Khali is a former world champion and has beaten Undertaker and John Cena clean. f***er couldn't even take a bump. He wins in a landslide.
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Post by RedSmile on Jan 14, 2019 12:14:11 GMT -5
Pretty clear that people are simply naming people they personally dislike. Edge? Batista? Sheamus? Charlotte!? *shakes head*
-Prince Iaukea was a total JAG and yet managed a WCW TV title reign (going over Regal) and two WCW cruiserweight title reigns.
-Brutus Beefcake. There is an argument to be made that Beefcake has gotten the most out of a career, while having the least to offer. He was often booked as Hogan's best friend, a tag title run with Greg Valentine, would have been IC champ had he not gotten his face destroyed, and is on a fairly short list of people who have main evented a Wrestlemania and a Starcade. He run as the Barber was, by far, his most successful; and even then it was not very long and lived upon 100% cocaine-fueled character work.
-Nick Aldis. Former IWGP Tag Team Champion, GHC Tag Team Champion, TNA Tag Team Champion (x2), TNA World Champion, GFW Champion, and is the reigning NWA World Champion on his second reign. Aldis is the definition of mediocre wrestler, and he is as dry as beach sand. He just so happened to be colossally overrated and overpushed by Jeff Jarrett.
But my real and final answer is...
The Fabulous Moolah. 4x WWF Women's Champion, she is also the inaugural WWF Women's Champion. 4x NWA Women's Champion. Several reigns were years in length. Hall of Fame. Regularly regarded as the biggest legend in women's wrestling, including recently by Hogan during his eulogy for Mean Gene. Nearly had a Wrestlemania battle royal named in her honor. All while being a complete shit wrestler whose style held back women's wrestling while it was thriving in Japan. And that's before you get to her being a completely and horrifically shitty human being.
Now, you go right ahead and tell me again about Charlotte. Charlotte could have 1000 title reigns and she would still be lapped by Moolah.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Jan 14, 2019 12:37:59 GMT -5
Well, okay. Maybe if someone Sheamus's size showed up in the 1920s or 30s he would have main evented then. For previous eras of the WWF though? The ultra pale look and Irish accent would have rendered him midcard at best. I certainly can't fathom him main eventing in the 80s. Maybe he could have had a cup of coffee like Bigelow or Tatanka during the talent strapped mid 90s. I was thinking specifically of the '80s. Tall, muscular, charismatic, can talk for himself, agile, can work a solid match? Hogan would be knocking Vince's door down to work programs with him. He'd never get a run with the title, of course, but with him offering more than just size he'd be more DiBiase than Bundy.
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EyeofTyr
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Post by EyeofTyr on Jan 14, 2019 12:49:57 GMT -5
Well, okay. Maybe if someone Sheamus's size showed up in the 1920s or 30s he would have main evented then. For previous eras of the WWF though? The ultra pale look and Irish accent would have rendered him midcard at best. I certainly can't fathom him main eventing in the 80s. Maybe he could have had a cup of coffee like Bigelow or Tatanka during the talent strapped mid 90s. I was thinking specifically of the '80s. Tall, muscular, charismatic, can talk for himself, agile, can work a solid match? Hogan would be knocking Vince's door down to work programs with him. He'd never get a run with the title, of course, but with him offering more than just size he'd be more DiBiase than Bundy. Yeah, Sheamus reeks of a over the top, cartoony monster Hogan would feud with in the 80's like a Zeus. Though Hogan was often times careful to pick guys to work with that had worse bodies than him and so it's kind of a toss up in that regard whether Hogan would be okay with working with Sheamus. For example, he notoriously hated the fact that he thought Warrior had a better body than him during their program. As crazy as it sounds, Hogan's insecure enough that he might veto working with Sheamus. But even if Sheamus never worked the title program or fought Hogan, I'd easily see him slotting into the B tier of top card heels from that era and fighting the likes of Savage and Warrior.
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Post by prichardmark on Jan 14, 2019 12:53:24 GMT -5
Ric Flair, he had no where near the talent his resume suggests. His matches were all the same as were his promos. He even had a recycled gimmick. Well his promos were always entertaining. But yea, his work was way too formulaic after a while. He had essentially the same match every night for 20 years. Where you could almost plot out every move he was going to do before he did it. That flip to the turnbuckle to run to the other corner and jump off the top rope was the most ridiculous spot at the time. I can't believe someone didn't tell him to stop doing it
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Jan 14, 2019 13:28:26 GMT -5
Might be unpopular around these parts but for me, it’s easily The Miz. I have yet to see him in a great match. He’s had good matches but no GREAT matches. And when you consider he’s been employed since 2004 and has worked with nearly everybody, that’s pretty shocking. Even Daniel Bryan couldn’t get a good match out of him. . Not sure if it's you posting on here under this username, Bret Hart... Ric Flair, he had no where near the talent his resume suggests. His matches were all the same as were his promos. He even had a recycled gimmick. ...Or you if you post here under multiple accounts. Either way, I'm on to you, Hitman!
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Jan 14, 2019 13:32:58 GMT -5
Pretty clear that people are simply naming people they personally dislike. Edge? Batista? Sheamus? Charlotte!? *shakes head* -Prince Iaukea was a total JAG and yet managed a WCW TV title reign (going over Regal) and two WCW cruiserweight title reigns. -Brutus Beefcake. There is an argument to be made that Beefcake has gotten the most out of a career, while having the least to offer. He was often booked as Hogan's best friend, a tag title run with Greg Valentine, would have been IC champ had he not gotten his face destroyed, and is on a fairly short list of people who have main evented a Wrestlemania and a Starcade. He run as the Barber was, by far, his most successful; and even then it was not very long and lived upon 100% cocaine-fueled character work. -Nick Aldis. Former IWGP Tag Team Champion, GHC Tag Team Champion, TNA Tag Team Champion (x2), TNA World Champion, GFW Champion, and is the reigning NWA World Champion on his second reign. Aldis is the definition of mediocre wrestler, and he is as dry as beach sand. He just so happened to be colossally overrated and overpushed by Jeff Jarrett. But my real and final answer is... The Fabulous Moolah. 4x WWF Women's Champion, she is also the inaugural WWF Women's Champion. 4x NWA Women's Champion. Several reigns were years in length. Hall of Fame. Regularly regarded as the biggest legend in women's wrestling, including recently by Hogan during his eulogy for Mean Gene. Nearly had a Wrestlemania battle royal named in her honor. All while being a complete shit wrestler whose style held back women's wrestling while it was thriving in Japan. And that's before you get to her being a completely and horrifically shitty human being. Now, you go right ahead and tell me again about Charlotte. Charlotte could have 1000 title reigns and she would still be lapped by Moolah. or people legit think these people got way too much and/or weren't around for those other you mentioned. I hate moolah of course but I never actually watched her wrestle to know if she was also an mediocre wrestler or even knew all of her accolades. and given this is WWE current , can't blame us. Edge is one of my all time favourites but I can see the argument, even if I completely disagree. And Sheamus never amounted to a big success and was demoted really down the card, he is very much fair game.
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Post by RedSmile on Jan 14, 2019 13:49:23 GMT -5
Pretty clear that people are simply naming people they personally dislike. Edge? Batista? Sheamus? Charlotte!? *shakes head* -Prince Iaukea was a total JAG and yet managed a WCW TV title reign (going over Regal) and two WCW cruiserweight title reigns. -Brutus Beefcake. There is an argument to be made that Beefcake has gotten the most out of a career, while having the least to offer. He was often booked as Hogan's best friend, a tag title run with Greg Valentine, would have been IC champ had he not gotten his face destroyed, and is on a fairly short list of people who have main evented a Wrestlemania and a Starcade. He run as the Barber was, by far, his most successful; and even then it was not very long and lived upon 100% cocaine-fueled character work. -Nick Aldis. Former IWGP Tag Team Champion, GHC Tag Team Champion, TNA Tag Team Champion (x2), TNA World Champion, GFW Champion, and is the reigning NWA World Champion on his second reign. Aldis is the definition of mediocre wrestler, and he is as dry as beach sand. He just so happened to be colossally overrated and overpushed by Jeff Jarrett. But my real and final answer is... The Fabulous Moolah. 4x WWF Women's Champion, she is also the inaugural WWF Women's Champion. 4x NWA Women's Champion. Several reigns were years in length. Hall of Fame. Regularly regarded as the biggest legend in women's wrestling, including recently by Hogan during his eulogy for Mean Gene. Nearly had a Wrestlemania battle royal named in her honor. All while being a complete shit wrestler whose style held back women's wrestling while it was thriving in Japan. And that's before you get to her being a completely and horrifically shitty human being. Now, you go right ahead and tell me again about Charlotte. Charlotte could have 1000 title reigns and she would still be lapped by Moolah. or people legit think these people got way too much and/or weren't around for those other you mentioned. If that's the case, then people need to admit that they're just plain wrong.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Jan 14, 2019 14:52:27 GMT -5
or people legit think these people got way too much and/or weren't around for those other you mentioned. If that's the case, then people need to admit that they're just plain wrong. Well thank you for you absolute and definitive opinion.
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Cronant
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Post by Cronant on Jan 14, 2019 15:37:51 GMT -5
I'm going with Del Rio. Multiple WWE title reigns and a Rumble win.
I don't see the arguments for the women either, they have much less good history to work with, so of course 2-3 years of actual competent booking will get them some accolades. Charlotte already has quite possibly the best catalog of matches a women in WWE has ever had and I'm supposed to be mad she might get more title reigns than Trish? Nah.
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malloc
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Post by malloc on Jan 14, 2019 16:37:00 GMT -5
Vince is a three time champion and a royal rumble winner right?
Didn't he beat god in a match too?
This is a tricky one....when you say unimpressive, to me I think of a person who just isn't over with the crowd dispite the company's best effort to get them over.
They can be super talented ring wise but if you are missing that intagable quality they call "it" then that can make you unimpressive in alot of people's eyes. The problem with wrestling is that kayfabe titles and accolades don't really mean much now days when the tooth paste is out the tube but it is still used as a tool for the suspension of disbelief, "Cheer this guy he is your champion and hero" "boo this guy he keeps beating your hero and cheating him out of the gold". Doesnt help when they are tossed out like sweets to futher story lines and also in an effort to get someone over. It generates apathy from the viewer if they don't believe in the act. Wrestlers are actors too at the end of the day.
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Post by Some Guy on Jan 14, 2019 16:37:40 GMT -5
Pretty clear that people are simply naming people they personally dislike. Edge? Batista? Sheamus? Charlotte!? *shakes head* -Prince Iaukea was a total JAG and yet managed a WCW TV title reign (going over Regal) and two WCW cruiserweight title reigns. -Brutus Beefcake. There is an argument to be made that Beefcake has gotten the most out of a career, while having the least to offer. He was often booked as Hogan's best friend, a tag title run with Greg Valentine, would have been IC champ had he not gotten his face destroyed, and is on a fairly short list of people who have main evented a Wrestlemania and a Starcade. He run as the Barber was, by far, his most successful; and even then it was not very long and lived upon 100% cocaine-fueled character work. -Nick Aldis. Former IWGP Tag Team Champion, GHC Tag Team Champion, TNA Tag Team Champion (x2), TNA World Champion, GFW Champion, and is the reigning NWA World Champion on his second reign. Aldis is the definition of mediocre wrestler, and he is as dry as beach sand. He just so happened to be colossally overrated and overpushed by Jeff Jarrett. But my real and final answer is... The Fabulous Moolah. 4x WWF Women's Champion, she is also the inaugural WWF Women's Champion. 4x NWA Women's Champion. Several reigns were years in length. Hall of Fame. Regularly regarded as the biggest legend in women's wrestling, including recently by Hogan during his eulogy for Mean Gene. Nearly had a Wrestlemania battle royal named in her honor. All while being a complete shit wrestler whose style held back women's wrestling while it was thriving in Japan. And that's before you get to her being a completely and horrifically shitty human being. Now, you go right ahead and tell me again about Charlotte. Charlotte could have 1000 title reigns and she would still be lapped by Moolah. I agree with Beefcake and obviously Moolah, but Aldis' push is worth it for this moment
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jan 14, 2019 17:30:34 GMT -5
Then he was brought back in his terrible second run where he didn't give a shit and was probably coked out of his gourd for most of. He ended Cena's US Title Open Challenge. That entire thing that damn near everybody loved and were pumped to see every week, and see how it would end, was all ended by Bertie. Although people tend to forget how incredibly over Del Rio was for that one night.
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Post by RedSmile on Jan 14, 2019 18:29:54 GMT -5
If that's the case, then people need to admit that they're just plain wrong. Well thank you for you absolute and definitive opinion. I've been watching wrestling longer than you've been alive, so maybe, just maybe, I have an idea of what I am talking about. I made my suggestions and I explained them with sound reasoning. If you'd like to offer counterpoints to argue your stance, then feel free. On the other hand, spare me any lectures or passive aggressiveness, please. The idea of Roman Reigns and Charlotte being less impressive than Brutus Beefcake and Moolah, is just nuts. Roman's run in the Shield alone, blows away anything Beefcake ever did. And if you've never seen a Moolah match, I urge you to get on Youtube and seek some out. Hairpulls, eye rakes, dopey selling, no bumping. Just awful stuff.
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