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Post by Limity (BLM) on Feb 11, 2019 13:40:55 GMT -5
Somehow over the weekend, I stumbled upon the Ron Jones project on YouTube. It's a collection of music by composer Ron Jones from his time creating music for the first four seasons of Star Trek The Next Generation. His music has been recognized over the years and collected in albums, in particular his Best Of Both Worlds theme and Romulan theme. However he was fired by executive producer and long time whipping boy Rick Berman, because his music was...too good?
Firing Ron Jones is just another in a long list of mistakes and failures made by Berman. But I can't help but wonder what he did right? What were Berman's accomplishments and successes within Star Trek?
If I remember correctly, he's the one that brought stability to The Next Generation backstage. And he had to have some hand in Deep Space Nine and First Contact. But how much of that was actually Michael Piller? I do remember an interview with DS9 executive producer Ira Steven Behr where he praised Berman for his support of DS9, and encouraging Behr to go different directions with the show.
And while the failure of Enterprise is pretty much 100% his, and the asshat Brannon Braga, was the decision to step back and let Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens come in his? That led to some of the better Enterprise episodes.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Feb 11, 2019 13:59:19 GMT -5
He took Gene's drunken I believe my own hype terrible concept for ST:TNG and along with Moore,Piller and Braga turned it into a legendary addition to the franchise.
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Post by Cyno on Feb 11, 2019 14:15:45 GMT -5
Enterprise and Voyager also suffered a bit from UPN interference. So while Berman and Braga definitely have their fair share to blame with how both of those shows turned out, a lot of the really dumb stuff in both shows like the Temporal Cold War crap in Enterprise was also because UPN wanted that crap in there because they didn't think a pure prequel show couldn't be good on its own merits without going into a more futuristic post-Voyager era. TNG and DS9 had a lot more creative freedom compared to those two shows because they aired entirely in syndication.
Berman actually did a lot of good with Star Trek, especially in the early-mid 90's right after Gene died and with DS9. People only remember the bad because there was a lot of it, especially when it came to Voyager, Enterprise, and the Next Gen movies not named "First Contact." And said bad things were his most recent contribution to Star Trek.
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Post by Hit Girl on Feb 11, 2019 14:17:45 GMT -5
He was right to take a back seat on DS9, and let more talented people take creative control.
He was still a prick though, whining over Nog's leg being amputated, and wanting the Dominion War to be over in just a few episodes.
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Post by BorneAgain on Feb 11, 2019 14:25:28 GMT -5
Berman had the bad fortune of not being an outright incredible writer like Moore, Behr, or Piller nor the recipient of 20+ years of fandom's elevation of him into a legendary visionary like Roddenberry. As a result he's seen often a competent overseer figure at best and an uncreative, meddling higher up at worst.
I think he stubbornly and closely stuck to Roddenberry's vision when the franchise didn't need to, but to be fair, he also likely would have been lambasted for drifting from it too much by a segment of the fanbase, so it was a tough spot overall. He's made some creative decisions I didn't care for, however he's got a lot less skeletons in his closet than Gene did, and the more I've read about Berman behind the scenes, the more I understand his reasoning for certain calls, even if I don't agree with them.
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Post by Hit Girl on Feb 11, 2019 14:29:29 GMT -5
I will say that as bad as Rick Berman was, he was still a million times better than the other Rick Berman who worked for George Lucas.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,008
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Feb 11, 2019 14:30:23 GMT -5
He was right to take a back seat on DS9, and let more talented people take creative control. He was still a prick though, whining over Nog's leg being amputated, and wanting the Dominion War to be over in just a few episodes. He was a prick over that stuff, but I can also see where he was coming from. In the mid 90s, that was stuff you just didn't do on a continuing series. Consequences beyond the episode or 2 parter? How would that play in syndication? His problem was being in charge too long. He stepped back on DS9 and Behr and Moore could adapt to how TV was changing a bit more. Where he had more influence, things stayed in that mindset. Which lead to Voyager chucking out pretty much every interesting aspect of the show within 2 episodes but the decline was relatively slow. By the time of Enterprise his input was so archaic it killed the franchise.
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Feb 11, 2019 14:38:41 GMT -5
There was definitely a point where Berman's rigid adherence to the Star Trek formula became stifling. At first it was what TNG needed, some leveling, balancing. Then when it was time for Trek to change, it couldn't. I remember an interview with Jonathan Frakes about how certain camera angles weren't allowed by Berman because they weren't Star Trek.
It's fascinating in hindsight, how Star Trek became the show too afraid to change, considering its roots.
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Post by BorneAgain on Feb 11, 2019 14:51:51 GMT -5
He was right to take a back seat on DS9, and let more talented people take creative control. He was still a prick though, whining over Nog's leg being amputated, and wanting the Dominion War to be over in just a few episodes. His problem was being in charge too long. He stepped back on DS9 and Behr and Moore could adapt to how TV was changing a bit more. Where he had more influence, things stayed in that mindset. Which lead to Voyager chucking out pretty much every interesting aspect of the show within 2 episodes but the decline was relatively slow. By the time of Enterprise his input was so archaic it killed the franchise. There was definitely a point where Berman's rigid adherence to the Star Trek formula became stifling. At first it was what TNG needed, some leveling, balancing. Then when it was time for Trek to change, it couldn't. I remember an interview with Jonathan Frakes about how certain camera angles weren't allowed by Berman because they weren't Star Trek. It's fascinating in hindsight, how Star Trek became the show too afraid to change, considering its roots. An ironic consequence given that the same thing happened to Roddenberry himself in the first two season of TNG, where he was still trying to helm the show as if it was another TOS. Given how out of date the franchise was getting, it does make one wonder if Manny Coto could have continued to turn things around with Enterprise, or if it would have have continued to stick out like a sore thumb when television was already into the the critically acclaimed era of Sopranos/Wire/Shield/Mad Men/Breaking Bad/etc.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 14:55:23 GMT -5
He wrote Brothers, that's a pretty good episode.
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Post by Cyno on Feb 11, 2019 15:03:37 GMT -5
Coto and the Reeves-Stevenses were doing really good work with Enterprise once they finally stopped the Temporal War shit. I like that it had a lot of little mini-arcs like with the Augments and the Vulcan Kir'shara. It was also sewing the seeds of the Earth-Romulan War that would eventually lead to the creation of the Federation. It was just too little, too late to save the show, sadly. And, as if insult to injury, it had the most disappointing series finale since TOS' "Turnabout Intruder" and at least that episode had the excuse of not being intended to be a series finale.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 15:07:07 GMT -5
Coto and the Reeves-Stevenses were doing really good work with Enterprise once they finally stopped the Temporal War shit. I like that it had a lot of little mini-arcs like with the Augments and the Vulcan Kir'shara. It was also sewing the seeds of the Earth-Romulan War that would eventually lead to the creation of the Federation. It was just too little, too late to save the show, sadly. And, as if insult to injury, it had the most disappointing series finale since TOS' "Turnabout Intruder" and at least that episode had the excuse of not being intended to be a series finale. Honestly I think I kind of look more unfavorably at the Voyager finale than the Enterprise one. Like... Yeah, the Enterprise one sucks. Absolutely. It was a pretty boneheaded idea to cram it into TNG (although I kind of get the thought process) and it has no tension whatsoever. But at least they bothered to, like... End it? Voyager just did a wacky try-to-get-home-again episode yet again except this time it actually worked, but even then they didn't actually show them get home so for all we know a meteor hit the ship the second they cut to black and Janeway was the only survivor.
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Post by Cyno on Feb 11, 2019 15:10:59 GMT -5
Coto and the Reeves-Stevenses were doing really good work with Enterprise once they finally stopped the Temporal War shit. I like that it had a lot of little mini-arcs like with the Augments and the Vulcan Kir'shara. It was also sewing the seeds of the Earth-Romulan War that would eventually lead to the creation of the Federation. It was just too little, too late to save the show, sadly. And, as if insult to injury, it had the most disappointing series finale since TOS' "Turnabout Intruder" and at least that episode had the excuse of not being intended to be a series finale. Honestly I think I kind of look more unfavorably at the Voyager finale than the Enterprise one. Like... Yeah, the Enterprise one sucks. Absolutely. It was a pretty boneheaded idea to cram it into TNG (although I kind of get the thought process) and it has no tension whatsoever. But at least they bothered to, like... End it? Voyager just did a wacky try-to-get-home-again episode yet again except this time it actually worked, but even then they didn't actually show them get home so for all we know a meteor hit the ship the second they cut to black and Janeway was the only survivor. Yeah, I would've liked at least some kind of epilogue to the Voyager cast to follow up on them finally getting home beyond Vice Admiral Janeway's cameo in Nemesis. Endgame Part 2 should've been the penultimate episode of the series with the finale resolving all the remaining plot threads, like Tom reconciling with his father face-to-face, Tuvok reuniting with his family, seeing where the relationship with Chakotay and Seven goes, Kim finally getting that promotion, etc.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Feb 11, 2019 15:30:06 GMT -5
Honestly I think I kind of look more unfavorably at the Voyager finale than the Enterprise one. Like... Yeah, the Enterprise one sucks. Absolutely. It was a pretty boneheaded idea to cram it into TNG (although I kind of get the thought process) and it has no tension whatsoever. But at least they bothered to, like... End it? Voyager just did a wacky try-to-get-home-again episode yet again except this time it actually worked, but even then they didn't actually show them get home so for all we know a meteor hit the ship the second they cut to black and Janeway was the only survivor. Yeah, I would've liked at least some kind of epilogue to the Voyager cast to follow up on them finally getting home beyond Vice Admiral Janeway's cameo in Nemesis. Endgame Part 2 should've been the penultimate episode of the series with the finale resolving all the remaining plot threads, like Tom reconciling with his father face-to-face, Tuvok reuniting with his family, seeing where the relationship with Chakotay and Seven goes, Kim finally getting that promotion, etc. I want to see the Kim one. "Ensign Kim, for bravely serving in the harshest of conditions for 7 years, we award you this richly deserved promotion..." "FINALLY!" "... To Lieutenant, Junior Grade" "..." Paris: "Poor, dumb Harry"
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Feb 11, 2019 15:48:07 GMT -5
Honestly I think I kind of look more unfavorably at the Voyager finale than the Enterprise one. Like... Yeah, the Enterprise one sucks. Absolutely. It was a pretty boneheaded idea to cram it into TNG (although I kind of get the thought process) and it has no tension whatsoever. But at least they bothered to, like... End it? Voyager just did a wacky try-to-get-home-again episode yet again except this time it actually worked, but even then they didn't actually show them get home so for all we know a meteor hit the ship the second they cut to black and Janeway was the only survivor. Yeah, I would've liked at least some kind of epilogue to the Voyager cast to follow up on them finally getting home beyond Vice Admiral Janeway's cameo in Nemesis. Endgame Part 2 should've been the penultimate episode of the series with the finale resolving all the remaining plot threads, like Tom reconciling with his father face-to-face, Tuvok reuniting with his family, seeing where the relationship with Chakotay and Seven goes, Kim finally getting that promotion, etc. I really like that idea. After seven years gone, all their work to return, what has changed, who moved on, what has been irretrievably lost in that time... Triumphant, yet bittersweet. Damn, what a missed opportunity. But that's pretty much that whole series.
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Post by BorneAgain on Feb 11, 2019 15:54:10 GMT -5
Honestly I think you could have gotten at least half of the last season out of Voyager adjusting to being back home. You can probably thrown in some big stakes filled climax for the last two episodes, but 7B being the crew adjusting to a post Dominion War Federation would have made for some really interesting television.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,008
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Feb 11, 2019 15:55:24 GMT -5
Yeah, I would've liked at least some kind of epilogue to the Voyager cast to follow up on them finally getting home beyond Vice Admiral Janeway's cameo in Nemesis. Endgame Part 2 should've been the penultimate episode of the series with the finale resolving all the remaining plot threads, like Tom reconciling with his father face-to-face, Tuvok reuniting with his family, seeing where the relationship with Chakotay and Seven goes, Kim finally getting that promotion, etc. I really like that idea. After seven years gone, all their work to return, what has changed, who moved on, what has been irretrievably lost in that time... Triumphant, yet bittersweet. Damn, what a missed opportunity. But that's pretty much that whole series. Not to mention the last minute discovery of a group of Talaxians halfway across the galaxy from where they should be so they could drop him off and leave a loose end there. Not like there'd be any drama of interest in their guide when they first reached the Delta Quadrant now in the opposite situation, 70,000 light years from home and cut off from his life, but excited for the adventure. Were there any ways they didn't bungle their setting?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 15:57:04 GMT -5
Honestly I think I kind of look more unfavorably at the Voyager finale than the Enterprise one. Like... Yeah, the Enterprise one sucks. Absolutely. It was a pretty boneheaded idea to cram it into TNG (although I kind of get the thought process) and it has no tension whatsoever. But at least they bothered to, like... End it? Voyager just did a wacky try-to-get-home-again episode yet again except this time it actually worked, but even then they didn't actually show them get home so for all we know a meteor hit the ship the second they cut to black and Janeway was the only survivor. Yeah, I would've liked at least some kind of epilogue to the Voyager cast to follow up on them finally getting home beyond Vice Admiral Janeway's cameo in Nemesis. Endgame Part 2 should've been the penultimate episode of the series with the finale resolving all the remaining plot threads, like Tom reconciling with his father face-to-face, Tuvok reuniting with his family, seeing where the relationship with Chakotay and Seven goes, Kim finally getting that promotion, etc. Because Chakotay has always been into... Satisfying story resolutions!
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,008
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Feb 11, 2019 15:59:46 GMT -5
Yeah, I would've liked at least some kind of epilogue to the Voyager cast to follow up on them finally getting home beyond Vice Admiral Janeway's cameo in Nemesis. Endgame Part 2 should've been the penultimate episode of the series with the finale resolving all the remaining plot threads, like Tom reconciling with his father face-to-face, Tuvok reuniting with his family, seeing where the relationship with Chakotay and Seven goes, Kim finally getting that promotion, etc. Because Chakotay has always been into... Satisfying story resolutions! OOOOOO snake eyes, roll again.
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Feb 11, 2019 16:45:58 GMT -5
Honestly I think you could have gotten at least half of the last season out of Voyager adjusting to being back home. You can probably thrown in some big stakes filled climax for the last two episodes, but 7B being the crew adjusting to a post Dominion War Federation would have made for some really interesting television. The more I read the posts about this idea, the more I wish they could have done that. Dammit guys, for the first time EVER I actually care about Voyager! If absolutely nothing else, they could have done a made for TV movie after the series that expanded upon their return.
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