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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Mar 17, 2019 14:14:42 GMT -5
With the MCU, any character they want to intro into the films as LGBT they aren't 'making gay' anyway. The films are just another variant universe; so if X character is straight in the books, their alternate movie version can be gay etc and it's just a different take.
With Moondragon I probably wouldn't even make the Drax connection. Batista Drax is already pretty different from the books anyway.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Mar 17, 2019 16:21:24 GMT -5
I'm.not arguing he is a better or worse foi being a conspiracy, just that people will have a easier time accepting a new character that is a.minority than replacing an existing one,which is true.Im not arguing quality or morality of it.Because even if your mid child enjoyed it was still a commercial failure New Hulk might have been a extreme example because yeh ,the character was legit bad. My point being yeah it turned off established fans but it helped establish new ones. Older fans will always dip in and out as quality and interest comes and goes on any particular run. Getting that new generation is hard though. Maybe Cho shouldn't have been Hulk Jr. Maybe Riri shouldn't have been Iron Man Jr. Maybe Laura shouldn't have been Wolverine Jr (actually f*** that, she rocks). But doing all of this at once (good mixed with the bad) helped the universe feel new and welcoming. Now that Marvel is largely back to the status quo (comics, of course it would), it has a new set of eyes on it out here to continue to explore it. Anyone could consider it the equivalent of stunt casting, I won't argue that it wasn't, but it helped make people, not you or I or John Q Fanboy, feel invited into our world, and it worked. It had a purpose. I think with he mcu eventually these newer heroes will be introduced more organically. For example RDJ is retiring so they are gonna need a new iron man. And just to.make clear I like these characters which is why I don't like when they use it to fully replace another. I want people to accept they for what they are ,not what they try to emulate
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 10:18:55 GMT -5
Since Madison mentioned Iceman..is it official in the comics that Iceman is gay? I know that various writers have hinted he was. Yeah. Happened during Bendis' run. Though, in a very......odd way? His younger self, back when the younger versions of the X-Men were in the present day, was essentially outed by Jean who read his mind, and then later he told his older self about it and suddenly older self Iceman was gay.....
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Mar 18, 2019 11:46:04 GMT -5
I am absolutely in favour of LGBTQ+ characters being added to the MCU. As a completely biased Canadian, I would personally prefer Northstar and Alpha Flight get a movie before Moondragon is added. As long as they don't take a character that is traditionally straight and randomly make them gay, while also actively ignoring all the actual LGBTQ characters from the comics, I'm happy. That's my issue with all the race/gender/orientation swapping in general. You've already got great characters who fit the bill, but studios often just want to take an A-list character and reshape them so they can brag about being progressive, when true progression would be taking a pre-existing gay/black/female/whatever a chance to get over on their own merits.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Mar 18, 2019 12:21:19 GMT -5
I'm.not arguing he is a better or worse foi being a conspiracy, just that people will have a easier time accepting a new character that is a.minority than replacing an existing one,which is true.Im not arguing quality or morality of it.Because even if your mid child enjoyed it was still a commercial failure New Hulk might have been a extreme example because yeh ,the character was legit bad. White people will have an easier time accepting a new character than accepting giving an existing character a new ethnicity. That's going to be a problem for them as time goes on and we move away from the "everything was created by white men to appeal to white kids" narrative of society. Changing the ethnicity of a previously-existing character is going to be the downfall and it'll bomb? One word for that: Times are changing. Let me ask you a question: Why does Peter Parker have to be white? What about him determines that Peter Parker, Spider-Man, has to be a white kid? Because that's what the original creator intended? Steve Ditko is rolling in his Objectivism-laden coffin over what became of his character 50 years ago and counting, so changing the skin color ain't gonna be much of anything there. Simply put, there is nothing about Peter Parker that determines he has to be white other than "that's the way it's always been." Literally nothing. There are very, very, very few characters that "have" to be a certain ethnicity, and even then, it's a comic book reality so even those rules are not valid.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Mar 18, 2019 12:29:24 GMT -5
I'm.not arguing he is a better or worse foi being a conspiracy, just that people will have a easier time accepting a new character that is a.minority than replacing an existing one,which is true.Im not arguing quality or morality of it.Because even if your mid child enjoyed it was still a commercial failure New Hulk might have been a extreme example because yeh ,the character was legit bad. White people will have an easier time accepting a new character than accepting giving an existing character a new ethnicity. That's going to be a problem for them as time goes on and we move away from the "everything was created by white men to appeal to white kids" narrative of society. Changing the ethnicity of a previously-existing character is going to be the downfall and it'll bomb? One word for that: Times are changing. Let me ask you a question: Why does Peter Parker have to be white? What about him determines that Peter Parker, Spider-Man, has to be a white kid? Because that's what the original creator intended? Steve Ditko is rolling in his Objectivism-laden coffin over what became of his character 50 years ago and counting, so changing the skin color ain't gonna be much of anything there. Simply put, there is nothing about Peter Parker that determines he has to be white other than "that's the way it's always been." Literally nothing. There are very, very, very few characters that "have" to be a certain ethnicity, and even then, it's a comic book reality so even those rules are not valid. I mean, you are arguigng something I never defended. I said people accept more easily when the character is new(There is success of it, for example Aquaman being a Samoan BAdass is basically loved). B I never said it will necesserally bomb,you are just putting word in thing I didnt say. MY POINT IS:" People will accept full new characters more easily than trying to replace/change one they love and we get better characters when people put the effort to make a new one" Of course here is success stories as I pointed out with Aquaman. For the sake of your point,why not change peter's race?Because people enjoy the character as it is.it is an estabilished charactera and the more extreme the change,more extreme the pushback(Which is NOT a good reason).But at same time,sure we can just make Black Peter for Spider-Verse ,but Morales speaks in a much more personal level and was made as a reflection of todays culture.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Mar 18, 2019 12:33:28 GMT -5
White people will have an easier time accepting a new character than accepting giving an existing character a new ethnicity. That's going to be a problem for them as time goes on and we move away from the "everything was created by white men to appeal to white kids" narrative of society. Changing the ethnicity of a previously-existing character is going to be the downfall and it'll bomb? One word for that: Times are changing. Let me ask you a question: Why does Peter Parker have to be white? What about him determines that Peter Parker, Spider-Man, has to be a white kid? Because that's what the original creator intended? Steve Ditko is rolling in his Objectivism-laden coffin over what became of his character 50 years ago and counting, so changing the skin color ain't gonna be much of anything there. Simply put, there is nothing about Peter Parker that determines he has to be white other than "that's the way it's always been." Literally nothing. There are very, very, very few characters that "have" to be a certain ethnicity, and even then, it's a comic book reality so even those rules are not valid. I mean, you are arguigng something I never defended. I said people accept more easily when the character is new(There is success of it, for example Aquaman being a Samoan BAdass is basically loved). B I never said it will necesserally bomb,you are just putting word in thing I didnt say. MY POINT IS:" People will accept full new characters more easily than trying to replace/change one they love and we get better characters when people put the effort to make a new one" Of course here is success stories as I pointed out with Aquaman. For the sake of your point,why not change peter's race?Because people enjoy the character as it is.it is an estabilished charactera and the more extreme the change,more extreme the pushback(Which is NOT a good reason).But at same time,sure we can just make Black Peter for Spider-Verse ,but Morales speaks in a much more personal level and was made as a reflection of todays culture. Wow.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Mar 18, 2019 12:35:30 GMT -5
I mean, you are arguigng something I never defended. I said people accept more easily when the character is new(There is success of it, for example Aquaman being a Samoan BAdass is basically loved). B I never said it will necesserally bomb,you are just putting word in thing I didnt say. MY POINT IS:" People will accept full new characters more easily than trying to replace/change one they love and we get better characters when people put the effort to make a new one" Of course here is success stories as I pointed out with Aquaman. For the sake of your point,why not change peter's race?Because people enjoy the character as it is.it is an estabilished charactera and the more extreme the change,more extreme the pushback(Which is NOT a good reason).But at same time,sure we can just make Black Peter for Spider-Verse ,but Morales speaks in a much more personal level and was made as a reflection of todays culture. Wow. What? I made clear i'm not against changing the race,it doesnt bother me. But why go through the hard way? Why brute force something against people when you can achieve better things by creating something amazing? Edit: For example with Spider Verse,the story wouldnt be nearly as good if Morales was Peter Parker with a different ethnicity. It was amazing because Morales is an amazing character with an unique backstory.
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Post by Cyno on Mar 18, 2019 12:44:12 GMT -5
I'm still waiting for Shaft played by Michael Cera.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Mar 18, 2019 12:46:57 GMT -5
What? I made clear i'm not against changing the race,it doesnt bother me. But why go through the hard way? Why brute force something against people when you can achieve better things by creating something amazing? Edit: For example with Spider Verse,the story wouldnt be nearly as good if Morales was Peter Parker with a different ethnicity. It was amazing because Morales is an amazing character with an unique backstory. For example with Spider Verse, would the story have suffered if the Peter Parker who showed up to train Miles also happened to be African-American?
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Mar 18, 2019 12:50:18 GMT -5
What? I made clear i'm not against changing the race,it doesnt bother me. But why go through the hard way? Why brute force something against people when you can achieve better things by creating something amazing? Edit: For example with Spider Verse,the story wouldnt be nearly as good if Morales was Peter Parker with a different ethnicity. It was amazing because Morales is an amazing character with an unique backstory. For example with Spider Verse, would the story have suffered if the Peter Parker who showed up to train Miles also happened to be African-American? Almost nothing.It removes some of the connection he has with his uncle(a villain that understands him) and his father(A hero that doesnt understand him") both that understand how it feels to be a minority.But that is REALLY nitpicking. The main issue is that people would dislike and it would add nothing extra to the story. See what I mean? Its not that its BAD,but it would make people push back against it without adding much to the character itself.
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Post by Dub H on Mar 18, 2019 12:56:22 GMT -5
I'm still waiting for Shaft played by Michael Cera. I'm sure people would go crazy for the Shaft as a Awkward Nerdy Teen-Adult reboot.
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Post by Savage Gambino on Mar 20, 2019 8:43:19 GMT -5
With the MCU, any character they want to intro into the films as LGBT they aren't 'making gay' anyway. The films are just another variant universe; so if X character is straight in the books, their alternate movie version can be gay etc and it's just a different take. With Moondragon I probably wouldn't even make the Drax connection. Batista Drax is already pretty different from the books anyway. That's what I was thinking. MCU Drax has one daughter, to my knowledge, and she was killed but Thanos. He also has no connection to Earth.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Mar 20, 2019 9:10:59 GMT -5
What? I made clear i'm not against changing the race,it doesnt bother me. But why go through the hard way? Why brute force something against people when you can achieve better things by creating something amazing? Edit: For example with Spider Verse,the story wouldnt be nearly as good if Morales was Peter Parker with a different ethnicity. It was amazing because Morales is an amazing character with an unique backstory. For example with Spider Verse, would the story have suffered if the Peter Parker who showed up to train Miles also happened to be African-American? Donald Glover said on the Nerdist podcast when the whole controversy thing was going on "Peter Parker was a poor kid from Queens. What does that sound like now"?" The way I look at it is this. A lot of characters are white by default. When they were created they had to be white. Look at Perry White. When he was created an editor of a major newspaper in America would have had to be white. Now, not so much. If you did a period piece Superman comic or movie then Perry would have to be white. But now it is not a major deal for him to be black. If you did a Perry White movie a lot of details would change, like how he covered the civil rights era when he was a minority, but as a Superman supporting case member it does not really come into play. Most minority characters have to stay that way as being a minority is intrinsic to the character. Luke Cage, Black Panther, Shang Chi, etc. Being a minority plays heavily into their origin, character, motivations. To change them would be making major changes. Some exceptions do exist, for instance Spawn. Nothing I ever read, which I admit is not much past the first year, has his race play heavily into things. If you changed him and his family into another race I don't see any major changes to the comic. There are characters that are more than white by default in my opinion. Iron Fist for example. To me being a spoiled white kid is a big part of the character. If you changed him into asian like people talked about when his series was about to debut I think you change the character too much. If you are against the mighty whitey aspects of him I get it, so dont use him. You could use say Shang Chi and even get a lot of the same kind of interaction with Luke Cage that you would with Iron Fist (zen guy and streetwise brawler).
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Mar 20, 2019 9:47:39 GMT -5
For example with Spider Verse, would the story have suffered if the Peter Parker who showed up to train Miles also happened to be African-American? Donald Glover said on the Nerdist podcast when the whole controversy thing was going on "Peter Parker was a poor kid from Queens. What does that sound like now"?" The way I look at it is this. A lot of characters are white by default. When they were created they had to be white. Look at Perry White. When he was created an editor of a major newspaper in America would have had to be white. Now, not so much. If you did a period piece Superman comic or movie then Perry would have to be white. But now it is not a major deal for him to be black. If you did a Perry White movie a lot of details would change, like how he covered the civil rights era when he was a minority, but as a Superman supporting case member it does not really come into play. Most minority characters have to stay that way as being a minority is intrinsic to the character. Luke Cage, Black Panther, Shang Chi, etc. Being a minority plays heavily into their origin, character, motivations. To change them would be making major changes. Some exceptions do exist, for instance Spawn. Nothing I ever read, which I admit is not much past the first year, has his race play heavily into things. If you changed him and his family into another race I don't see any major changes to the comic. There are characters that are more than white by default in my opinion. Iron Fist for example. To me being a spoiled white kid is a big part of the character. If you changed him into asian like people talked about when his series was about to debut I think you change the character too much. If you are against the mighty whitey aspects of him I get it, so dont use him. You could use say Shang Chi and even get a lot of the same kind of interaction with Luke Cage that you would with Iron Fist (zen guy and streetwise brawler). A lot of the fun dynamic between Luke and Cage comes from their background and lifestyle too. They have a perfect synergy. Not disagreeing with what you said just adding some more. And at dame time there are popular black characters that don't rely on being essential to their character, Cyborg for example ,but it still gives some layers you can use for good.storytelling like how the cartoon used.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Mar 20, 2019 9:55:27 GMT -5
Donald Glover said on the Nerdist podcast when the whole controversy thing was going on "Peter Parker was a poor kid from Queens. What does that sound like now"?" The way I look at it is this. A lot of characters are white by default. When they were created they had to be white. Look at Perry White. When he was created an editor of a major newspaper in America would have had to be white. Now, not so much. If you did a period piece Superman comic or movie then Perry would have to be white. But now it is not a major deal for him to be black. If you did a Perry White movie a lot of details would change, like how he covered the civil rights era when he was a minority, but as a Superman supporting case member it does not really come into play. Most minority characters have to stay that way as being a minority is intrinsic to the character. Luke Cage, Black Panther, Shang Chi, etc. Being a minority plays heavily into their origin, character, motivations. To change them would be making major changes. Some exceptions do exist, for instance Spawn. Nothing I ever read, which I admit is not much past the first year, has his race play heavily into things. If you changed him and his family into another race I don't see any major changes to the comic. There are characters that are more than white by default in my opinion. Iron Fist for example. To me being a spoiled white kid is a big part of the character. If you changed him into asian like people talked about when his series was about to debut I think you change the character too much. If you are against the mighty whitey aspects of him I get it, so dont use him. You could use say Shang Chi and even get a lot of the same kind of interaction with Luke Cage that you would with Iron Fist (zen guy and streetwise brawler). A lot of the fun dynamic between Luke and Cage comes from their background and lifestyle too. They have a perfect synergy. Not disagreeing with what you said just adding some more. Certainly true. I also left out the sexuality part of it. Changing a characters sexual preference can be more difficult because of thought bubbles. For a character to have been in the closet for years when we have seen his thoughts many times means he would have to have been in denial. Certainly that is a real thing, I am just saying it makes it harder for some people to accept the character changing their sexuality. They have never personally been in denial so they cannot accept that reason.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Mar 20, 2019 11:50:43 GMT -5
I was glancing at a list of extant marvel characters who are LGBT women. It's pretty short. The only ones I really knew that are available were Miss America and Moondragon.
There's a katrillion X-characters: Karma, Jubilee, Pixie, Mystique, Destiny, Psylocke (really?), Bling... some of these are great characters (though I could live without ever seeing Mystique again), and awesome vampire so-cal lesbian Jubilee needs her own damn movie... but not for the MCU.
Oh, and there's Karolina Dean, but the Runaways are doing fine on TV.
Hm, speaking of Karolina, a grown-up Lightspeed might work in the MCU. Have there been any Power Pack cameos or anything?
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Post by Duke Cameron on Mar 20, 2019 14:30:04 GMT -5
I was glancing at a list of extant marvel characters who are LGBT women. It's pretty short. The only ones I really knew that are available were Miss America and Moondragon. There's a katrillion X-characters: Karma, Jubilee, Pixie, Mystique, Destiny, Psylocke (really?), Bling... some of these are great characters (though I could live without ever seeing Mystique again), and awesome vampire so-cal lesbian Jubilee needs her own damn movie... but not for the MCU. Oh, and there's Karolina Dean, but the Runaways are doing fine on TV. Hm, speaking of Karolina, a grown-up Lightspeed might work in the MCU. Have there been any Power Pack cameos or anything? Is the 616 Jubilee gay? I was looking at Marvel’s site for gay, bisexual and pansexual characters and the only Jubilee that was listed was one from an alternate universe. I know Bling kissed her, but I’ve been seeing sites call her ambiguously bi, etc. Psylocke kissed a girl once. (A female clone of Fantomex who Psylocke was also dating.) That came to an end when Fantomex and his clone started having sex with each other. Her bisexuality hasn’t been brought up since.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Mar 20, 2019 14:58:29 GMT -5
I was glancing at a list of extant marvel characters who are LGBT women. It's pretty short. The only ones I really knew that are available were Miss America and Moondragon. There's a katrillion X-characters: Karma, Jubilee, Pixie, Mystique, Destiny, Psylocke (really?), Bling... some of these are great characters (though I could live without ever seeing Mystique again), and awesome vampire so-cal lesbian Jubilee needs her own damn movie... but not for the MCU. Oh, and there's Karolina Dean, but the Runaways are doing fine on TV. Hm, speaking of Karolina, a grown-up Lightspeed might work in the MCU. Have there been any Power Pack cameos or anything? Is Jubilee gay? I was looking at Marvel’s site for gay, bisexual and pansexual characters and the only Jubilee that was listed was one from an alternate universe. I know Bling kissed her, but I’ve been seeing sites call her ambiguously bi, etc. Psylocke kissed a girl once. (A female clone of Fantomex who Psylocke was also dating.) That came to an end when Fantomex and his clone started having sex with each other. Her bisexuality hasn’t been brought up since. I also.hate when my girlfriend starts having sex with her Male self. A common problem
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Post by Z-A Sandbaggin' Son of a b!%@h on Mar 20, 2019 15:46:13 GMT -5
I don’t think it should be an issue. I don’t think they need to make a bi or gay character just so they have one. It should be organic and the focus should be on the story not who they’re hooking up with. I couldn’t give 2 shits if Captain Marvel was gay or if black panther was gay or if Gamora was transitioning. That doesn’t have to be a focus in the movie. Please don’t make it a focus. Make a good movie. That’s really all that should matter with comics and comic movies. Make them fun and exciting. If you wanna focus on all that other stuff make a damn drama or rom-com or something. Super hero’s should be about good vs evil and conflict. Not about their sexual orientation.
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