Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Jun 23, 2019 15:40:27 GMT -5
Until my last breath, or until Shawn Michaels or whomever had knowledge reveals the whole thing, I will remain of the belief that Shawn Michaels has/had certain information about Vince McMahon, a member of his family, or about the company that, if revealed particularly at that time, would have been so embarrassed to Vince that it might have killed WWE. I'm also somewhat of the belief that Triple H was brought into Vince's inner circle to act as a gatekeeper between Shawn and Vince, and that it worked both to isolate Shawn and to undermine his credibility as a potential accuser. It may have been as much a response to that new treatment, as it was injury, that prompted Shawn to withdraw from wrestling after WM XIV. It's all very vaguey-waguey and I'm generally talking out my ass, but there's only one reason I can think of for Vince not being at all open to alternatives when so many were available. I legitimately think Vince Bryan Singer'd Shawn early in his WWF career.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Jun 23, 2019 20:16:35 GMT -5
Ya know, for a guy like Vince who was terrified that Bret would take the belt with him or appear on TV and throw it in the trash, he sure did let Bret have the title until the 11th hour. Bret was still under contract for another month after Survivor Series, though. Sure, it's not the greatest move to have the top title on a guy just weeks away from leaving the company, but theoretically they still had three Raws, another PPV, and 16 house shows that they could've had him drop it at before he was gone. I don’t buy into the doublecross being a work. Bulldog took a pay cut when he went to WCW. Neidhart probably did too. I don’t see those guys leaving for less money to further an angle. In Bret's book he said Neidhart's deal with WCW was the first big money deal he'd ever had, so I'm guessing both he and Bulldog were on better deals. Neidhart has been on a monthly deal, which is why he worked a couple more Raws after Montreal, so he was able to just see out his contract. Bulldog actually had to buy out the last two years of his WWF contract, so as much as I'm sure he wanted to leave for loyalty's sake, I couldn't imagine he'd be willing to pay a huge buyout fee and take a pay cut.
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Post by The 1Watcher Experience on Jun 23, 2019 20:53:19 GMT -5
Ya know, for a guy like Vince who was terrified that Bret would take the belt with him or appear on TV and throw it in the trash, he sure did let Bret have the title until the 11th hour. Bret was still under contract for another month after Survivor Series, though. Sure, it's not the greatest move to have the top title on a guy just weeks away from leaving the company, but theoretically they still had three Raws, another PPV, and 16 house shows that they could've had him drop it at before he was gone. I don’t buy into the doublecross being a work. Bulldog took a pay cut when he went to WCW. Neidhart probably did too. I don’t see those guys leaving for less money to further an angle. In Bret's book he said Neidhart's deal with WCW was the first big money deal he'd ever had, so I'm guessing both he and Bulldog were on better deals. Neidhart has been on a monthly deal, which is why he worked a couple more Raws after Montreal, so he was able to just see out his contract. Bulldog actually had to buy out the last two years of his WWF contract, so as much as I'm sure he wanted to leave for loyalty's sake, I couldn't imagine he'd be willing to pay a huge buyout fee and take a pay cut. Jim Cornette said Bulldog took a pay cut to leave on his podcast. I suppose that it’s possible that he could be mistaken and meant to say he had to buy out his contract but you’d have to ask Cornette to be sure.
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Post by -Lithium- on Jun 23, 2019 21:43:23 GMT -5
Have Bret face Taker for the title at Survivor Series. I don't think they ever had a rematch for Takers loss at Summerslam. Taker wins the belt. HBK beats him the next month, maybe due to Kane that could play a factor in setting up WM. That sets up things on the original timeline where HBK is the champion and he and Taker feud early into 98...
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Jun 23, 2019 21:50:49 GMT -5
Does anybody ever question the filming of Wrestling With Shadows lining up with all this? That really is the only reason why I can see it being all a work.
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Post by Natural Born Farmer on Jun 24, 2019 17:10:34 GMT -5
Does anybody ever question the filming of Wrestling With Shadows lining up with all this? That really is the only reason why I can see it being all a work. Documentary was anchored by the impending end of his WWE contract and the choice he would make from there. I don’t think the crew had any idea what they were about to capture.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jun 24, 2019 17:20:34 GMT -5
Besides, the whole "Montreal was a work!" narrative only works in hindsight. In the moment, Vince was literally sending one of his two hottest heels to competition that was already curb stomping him weekly in the ratings, AND gave him a red-hot, sympathetic hand to play in the going over. It wasn't some "grand plan" to kill WCW, it was just that WCW was a political snakepit that couldn't stay out of it's own way that killed Bret over there.
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Post by Hulkshi Tanahashi on Jun 24, 2019 18:32:31 GMT -5
Have Bret face Taker for the title at Survivor Series. I don't think they ever had a rematch for Takers loss at Summerslam. Taker wins the belt. HBK beats him the next month, maybe due to Kane that could play a factor in setting up WM. That sets up things on the original timeline where HBK is the champion and he and Taker feud early into 98... They did at One Night Only, the UK PPV they had in September that year.
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Post by mauled on Jun 25, 2019 11:58:44 GMT -5
Have Bret face Taker for the title at Survivor Series. I don't think they ever had a rematch for Takers loss at Summerslam. Taker wins the belt. HBK beats him the next month, maybe due to Kane that could play a factor in setting up WM. That sets up things on the original timeline where HBK is the champion and he and Taker feud early into 98... They did at One Night Only in Birmingham UK ended in a DQ In his book Bret says it was his last great match in the WWF www.dailymotion.com/video/x5xq9pl
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Post by Hit Girl on Jun 25, 2019 12:33:14 GMT -5
Vince devised a plot to destroy WCW. First it involved letting Flair, Hogan and Savage go, which ushered in the New Generation primarily led by HBK, Bret, Nash and Hall. He then plotted with the Kliq, and Nash and Hall and Waltman were sent to WCW with the intention of creating the NWO. Bischoff fell into the trap, by basing too much of his product around the NWO and its established stars, which would alienate the midcarders like Jericho. Meanwhile Vince, having stuck with the superficially clean cut and wholesome New Generation era to rebuild the company's image after the steroid trial, moved forward with the next stage of his plan. He plotted with Bret to become a heel in America, thus creating a villain for HBK and HHH, the remaining Kliq members, to create DX, which Bret himself named. Bret realised that the foolish, gullible WCW would pay him shitloads of money, so Vince advised him to go, as he knew they would misuse him and further contribute to their collapse. Bret, Vince, and DX conspired to create a fake screwjob, thus making Bret seem sympathetic, and building Vince into a mega heel. Afterwards, the despised heel HBK faked a back injury, allowing him to take time away from the business, so he could return as a sympathetic face, setting up his beloved legend status. It also allowed Stone Cold and the Rock to rise to prominence (also co-conspirators who had adopted shitty gimmicks at first to fit into the deception of the New Generation era, which could then be cast off and replaced with Attitude Era personas) , and gave HHH a higher profile in HBK's absence.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2019 12:36:22 GMT -5
We started this thread on the Quebec Province Rules.
Why did nobody go and discuss the Quebec Province Rules?
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auph10imitated
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Post by auph10imitated on Jun 25, 2019 12:45:45 GMT -5
I think they f***ed themselves over by booking this at Survivor Series. They should have booked Bret vs Undertaker vs Shawn. They could have had Bret take the fall to Taker and then Shawn beats Taker at Royal Rumble with the help of Kane.
Vince surely knew that he needed to do this (giving Bret an opportunity to negotiate with WCW) so why the hell go with Bret/Shawn now. With Undertaker still coming out of a feud with Shawn and the fact he lost to Bret, it was easy to interject him into this match in the run up to the PPV
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jun 25, 2019 12:49:40 GMT -5
Vince devised a plot to destroy WCW. First it involved letting Flair, Hogan and Savage go, which ushered in the New Generation primarily led by HBK, Bret, Nash and Hall. He then plotted with the Kliq, and Nash and Hall and Waltman were sent to WCW with the intention of creating the NWO. Bischoff fell into the trap, by basing too much of his product around the NWO and its established stars, which would alienate the midcarders like Jericho. Meanwhile Vince, having stuck with the superficially clean cut and wholesome New Generation era to rebuild the company's image after the steroid trial, moved forward with the next stage of his plan. He plotted with Bret to become a heel in America, thus creating a villain for HBK and HHH, the remaining Kliq members, to create DX, which Bret himself named. Bret realised that the foolish, gullible WCW would pay him shitloads of money, so Vince advised him to go, as he knew they would misuse him and further contribute to their collapse. Bret, Vince, and DX conspired to create a fake screwjob, thus making Bret seem sympathetic, and building Vince into a mega heel. Afterwards, the despised heel HBK faked a back injury, allowing him to take time away from the business, so he could return as a sympathetic face, setting up his beloved legend status. It also allowed Stone Cold and the Rock to rise to prominence (also co-conspirators who had adopted shitty gimmicks at first to fit into the deception of the New Generation era, which could then be cast off and replaced with Attitude Era personas) , and gave HHH a higher profile in HBK's absence.
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Post by TOK Hehe'd Around & Found Out on Jun 25, 2019 13:36:59 GMT -5
Besides, the whole "Montreal was a work!" narrative only works in hindsight. In the moment, Vince was literally sending one of his two hottest heels to competition that was already curb stomping him weekly in the ratings, AND gave him a red-hot, sympathetic hand to play in the going over. It wasn't some "grand plan" to kill WCW, it was just that WCW was a political snakepit that couldn't stay out of it's own way that killed Bret over there. It doesn't even make sense in hindsight. The Screwjob was used in Owen Hart's Wrongful Death lawsuit as evidence to Vince's views towards the Harts and his talent in general. There is zero shot that Vince would have settled so quickly if the Harts were using a work as evidence in a court of law.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Jun 25, 2019 14:41:13 GMT -5
The obvious solution for Vince was twofold- 1) let Bret, the long-time consummate professional, leave the way he wanted, as per the creative control clause in the contract Vince begged him to sign 2) not let Shawn and his lackey dictate his business decisions
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Jun 25, 2019 17:19:42 GMT -5
The obvious solution for Vince was twofold- 1) let Bret, the long-time consummate professional, leave the way he wanted, as per the creative control clause in the contract Vince begged him to sign The thing is, there was precedent for what Vince feared. Bret had agreed to go to WCW in '92 and bring the IC title with him (WCW's payback for Flair taking the Big Gold with him the previous summer) which was only prevented when Bret discovered he was mistaken in his belief that his contract was up. Much as I hate playing Devil's Advocate with Vince, in his mind it isn't unreasonable to believe if Bret could agree to do it once when the WCW-WWF rivalry wasn't particularly strong, Bret could agree to do it at the height of the Monday Night Wars.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jun 25, 2019 17:31:58 GMT -5
The thing about that is, Bret didn't want to drop the title to Shawn. Shawn was a colossal prick, had gotten out of dropping titles before, had buried multiple people, and shortly before that match had screwed over Davey Boy. Bret would have dropped the title to anybody except for Shawn. Hell, had he been asked to drop the title to Ken Shamrock in a 15 second match, he would have done it, the problem was giving Shawn the title. I forget, but wasn't Shamrock the guy Bret suggested in the first place?
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jun 25, 2019 17:32:38 GMT -5
Personally I've always been firmly against Bret in the situation. Yeah, contractually he really didn't have to lose the belt to Michaels in Canada if he didn't want to, but outside of just being petty it's not like doing so would actually have affected anything for him in going to WCW. Granted the blame's more on Vince for allowing the situation to reach that point, but by the time it did I feel like him losing the belt to Shawn was what should have happened. That, and it seems like Vince was a giant shit-disturber who gaslighted the two to hate each other in the first place.
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Jun 25, 2019 21:25:51 GMT -5
And why Taker could threaten to beat up Shawn for not doing business but not Bret is beyond me. Taker would have been well aware of what a little turd Shawn was at the time.
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Post by -Lithium- on Jun 25, 2019 23:12:23 GMT -5
Have Bret face Taker for the title at Survivor Series. I don't think they ever had a rematch for Takers loss at Summerslam. Taker wins the belt. HBK beats him the next month, maybe due to Kane that could play a factor in setting up WM. That sets up things on the original timeline where HBK is the champion and he and Taker feud early into 98... They did at One Night Only in Birmingham UK ended in a DQ In his book Bret says it was his last great match in the WWF www.dailymotion.com/video/x5xq9plFine. It ended in DQ. Means no real definite victor, so have the final match at Survivor Series.
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