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Post by Ganon83 on Jul 22, 2019 23:49:13 GMT -5
Ever since Hero was revealed for Smash Bros., I’ve been on a bit of a DQ kick lately. I’m midway through II after beating I and am going to try and beat III before playing XI because I’ve heard it’s important to play through the Erdrick trilogy before picking up XI.
So, to cut to the chase, why does the west not care that much about DQ?
We’re months behind on everything that comes out compared to Japan and a lot of cool non game stuff like the Switch Slime controller is never even given a western release. X never came out in America and neither did XI 3DS.
You’d think that, with how mainstream Japanese media has started to become in general and Toriyama’s work in particular compared to 20 years ago, games would be flying off the shelves in America. But no, people instead decry DQ in Smash as a bummer or a wasted spot. I went to a local game store (boo Gamestop yay small businesses) three or four times in a month a couple of years ago and I remember a brand new copy of VII 3DS greeting me every time I walked in. Even after it was marked down to like $20.
So what gives exactly?
And yes I know about Sugiyama. But I just can’t imagine the composer being a piece of shit being the core reason that most gamers in the west steer clear of the series in general.
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CMWaters
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Post by CMWaters on Jul 22, 2019 23:58:26 GMT -5
A lot of it has to do with the timing of the series, I think.
When the first few games came over here as Dragon Warrior, it was very much in a time when JRPGs were not a major thing in America, really. It's why Final Fantasy was niche, it's why Earthbound underperformed, and so forth. I admit the first game I played that was an RPG was...well, Super Mario RPG, and that's from what I hear a REALLY watered down version.
Then, when Final Fantasy VII hit, that finally started making JRPGs popular. However, the trick was that the Final Fantasy series, from what I can tell anyway, was willing to try different setting types (such as the more industrial techno-fantasy setting of Midgar for Final Fantasy VII) whereas Dragon Quest did not (again from what little I know). So Dragon Quest, despite the series starting before Final Fantasy in Japan, I believe was seen as a bit of a knock off comparatively. It also doesn't help that they don't get anywhere NEAR the level of promotion the Final Fantasy games did (still do?), and that's even beyond commercials with things like Kingdom Hearts appearances and such.
Again though, this is my outsider view on things, as the only Square-Enix games I've ever played were Super Mario RPG and Ogre Battle.
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Post by Amazing Kitsune on Jul 23, 2019 0:06:35 GMT -5
Their plots are simplistic and too cutesy. This tone did not especially appeal to people of the late 80s and 90s who were not really much into RPGs in the first place. As such, the series never really gained a strong foothold.
I've always adored the series, ever since I got Dragon Warrior with my Nintendo Power subscription when I was really young.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jul 23, 2019 0:16:43 GMT -5
They care to an extent, it's not like we're talking about Beyond the Beyond here, but bad timing has never helped it out. They do seem to finally be getting traction, but some of the titles being much more difficult than Final Fantasy games tend to be, contrasting with the art style making people think they'd be "kid" games, paired with being overshadowed by Final Fantasy or even things like Breath of Fire to a much lesser extent, didn't help matters.
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EyeofTyr
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Post by EyeofTyr on Jul 23, 2019 0:52:56 GMT -5
Yeah, a major factor for it is...well, they're fantasy JRPGs. Traditional fantasy JRPGs were never that big in the 90's and 2000's. It's in part why Final Fantasy for so long diverged more into cyber punk and sci-fi elements in their games and that mentality was only reinforced when FF9 was met with lukewarm reception out of Japan (as they themselves have admitted).
It hasn't helped that the Dragon Quest series has had a shoddy track record of getting promoted and consistent releases in America. Final Fantasy for the longest time was a Play Station property (and before that if you were a long time fan a Nintendo property).
Dragon Quest's games were released all over many consoles in America, but never with any real consistency.
Another one is something else people touched on. I vividly remember forums in the 2000's where the discussion of JRPGs would come up and fans of the genre would crap on Dragon Quest for its "cutesy" designs and being a game for "babies" and give them all the Final Fantasy Edge Lord goodness that's for more sophisticated fans like them.
A much more minor point was during the 2000's there was some push back and backlash on Dragon Ball after the series ended and the rise of Naruto and Bleach began. This might not seem like a big deal at first glance, but I recall many anime fans that were JRPG fans too also decrying the games with such comments as "f***ing Toriyama's shitty art style lol. Call me when you get a real artist like Kishimoto or Kubo or Nomura".
I've known a lot of people who were turned off by the early Dragon Quest's games difficulty and battle system too.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2019 1:21:04 GMT -5
At least for me, some major points of putting me off from it are hating its art style (in general I really just don't like Toriyama's art - it works for Dragon Ball but I've never been a fan, but even something like Chrono Trigger the actual character drawings look like ass compared to the much more charming sprites), finding a lot of the trappings of the series to walk this weird line of overly odd and yet still feeling really bland, my attempts to play the older games pretty much uniformly finding them to have aged like milk, and having no idea how seriously I'm actually supposed to take it because it seems like it generally wants to go for actual plots but a lot of the trappings of it are really stupid.
I do like Slimes though.
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Post by Cyno on Jul 23, 2019 1:58:49 GMT -5
Dragon Quest VIII was a pretty big hit. The series doesn't resonate with the West to the same degree as it does in Japan, but in Japan it's a cultural phenomenon.
I think a big part of what didn't help is that we went nearly two generations without a single DQ game released in the West. We didn't get a single Dragon Quest release during the 16-bit generation. And Dragon Quest VII released at the tail end of the Playstation's lifespan in North America (October 2001, a year after the PS2's release) and by then it looked and played like a relic compared to its contemporaries like FF7-9, Valkyrie Profile, Star Ocean 2, Vagrant Story, Wild Arms 2, Xenogears, etc. If Enix bothered to release DQ5 and 6 during the SNES's lifespan, I think DQ would be a more popular franchise in the West. Likely not to the same degree as Final Fantasy, but then I think FF resonates a lot more with our typical sensibilities compared to DQ.
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Post by Z-A Sandbaggin' Son of a b!%@h on Jul 23, 2019 2:12:54 GMT -5
I love dragon quest and would love for some remakes for my switch or Xbox. I own the original four for NES and would love to get 5 and 6.
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hassanchop
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Post by hassanchop on Jul 23, 2019 2:45:11 GMT -5
It's not Final Fantasy VII
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Post by BorneAgain on Jul 23, 2019 7:04:03 GMT -5
As others have said, timing and art style have hurt its momentum; not to mention that there was a lack of advertising sizzle to grab people's attention like the FF 7-9 games did with their FMV's or a deeply involved story that could build buzz among potential players.
Its not really a surprise that the games starting getting a support base in the states with the DS/3DS era, as both systems had players much more open to the simpler art style and were willing to sink time into them given the general popularity of JRPG's on them.
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Post by Ganon83 on Jul 23, 2019 8:13:08 GMT -5
Some great replied in this thread, thank you.
One thing I’m actually really surprised that nobody has mentioned is Square Enix itself. Case in point: when Nintendo had its big sale last month on the Switch, Square didn’t even bother to mark down the lone DQ game (Builders 1) on the Switch even though all of their FF ports were.
The day after the series had probably the most publicity/hype that its ever had in the States, and Square wanted $60 for a PS3 game on the platform it was getting all of it.
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Post by The Spelunker! on Jul 23, 2019 8:37:32 GMT -5
I don’t think it helped that 2-4 were the good ones on NES, and when I went looking for copies of them as a kid in the 90s they were rarities.
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BlackoutCreature
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Post by BlackoutCreature on Jul 23, 2019 8:38:17 GMT -5
I'll be honest, when I first saw this thread I thought you were talking about Dragon's Lair and got really excited that Dirk the Daring would be appearing in Super Smash Bros.
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thirteen3
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Post by thirteen3 on Jul 23, 2019 8:49:21 GMT -5
From what little I've played, of Dragon Quest III, holy shit do you have to a lot of grinding.
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Post by BorneAgain on Jul 23, 2019 8:52:00 GMT -5
Some great replied in this thread, thank you. One thing I’m actually really surprised that nobody has mentioned is Square Enix itself. Case in point: when Nintendo had its big sale last month on the Switch, Square didn’t even bother to mark down the lone DQ game (Builders 1) on the Switch even though all of their FF ports were. The day after the series had probably the most publicity/hype that its ever had in the States, and Square wanted $60 for a PS3 game on the platform it was getting all of it. SE has a weird relationship with Nintendo in general. They'll do a big timed exclusive with Octopath Traveler and then be stingy as all hell with anything FF related in Smash. They'll put out a ton of JRPG's on the DS but then have so little faith in Bravely Default doing well in the West (even after numerous DQ releases on that same system) that Nintendo had to publish the game in the US. Its not Bethesda level effort in ports or Capcom esque lazy cash grabs; just weird hot & cold decisions that can go either way.
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Post by 'Foretold' Joker on Jul 23, 2019 8:57:45 GMT -5
Majority of players don't have the time to play them? I am guilty of that myself where I could go and grab a solid rpg or jrpg but instead pick up some dumb fps or sports games.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 23, 2019 9:01:37 GMT -5
It forces you into this one role that is very specific. I'm not sure a lot of Americans want to project themselves into this silent cipher hero character with the demure girlfriend... they want to role play more.
Also the grinding. So very much grinding. DQXI provided a trick to let you grind much more quickly, which helped. But the idea that you're expected to grind so much is tiring.
There's also... some weird things, at least to my eyes. DQXI had a lot of truly great characters (and, as always, top-notch translation and voice acting) and there was some surprising stuff there... but all just weird. There was this whole plot that was coded to be a guy coming out as gay to his dad... but then that same guy seduces young men to run around wearing peacock feathers which is funny? Two bad-ass, but very feminine, sisters have a relationship supplying the most emotionally poignant moments in the game... but one of them is a 25 year-old in a 9 year-old's body and I am pretty sure that's a sex thing? The canon toughest fighter is this kung-fu lady... but she literally uses sex appeal as a weapon and there is a very unsettling part where she's turned into a playboy centerfold sex-vampire? Christ, and let's not even get in to the old man who loves his porn.
There's real richness to these characters, but I keep getting the feeling as I'm playing that the only way to really appreciate it is to be a Japanese pervert with an anime girl body-pillow.
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adamclark52
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Post by adamclark52 on Jul 23, 2019 10:52:19 GMT -5
I think what holds it back is they are f***ing HARD and require a lot of time investment for grinding. North American audiences don’t have the patience or attention span for that.
And then do look cheesy. XI was a really good game but stack that up against any else current. Hardcore fans love it but outsiders who never played the series before are probably like “the f*** is this??”
Also, I know a lot of my friends and a lot of people my age were turned off it years ago when the promotion of giving copies of the first game to new subscribers of Nintendo Power happened. RPGs weren’t very popular then so I remember a lot of kids getting that game and hating it. It probably soured them to this day.
I love Dragon Quest though. VIII was incredible and XI was good.
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Post by The Spelunker! on Jul 23, 2019 11:09:24 GMT -5
I actually had a ton of fun with the torneko shopkeeper Spin off on ps 1 as well.
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Post by Captain Patren Fenderbaum-X on Jul 23, 2019 11:23:44 GMT -5
I don't think it is so much the west does not care for it I loved DQ9 but that it really isn't pushed and promoted as hard as more stapelized games of the west.
Going back to DQ9 really that is the only one I can think where I saw legit promotion for it lots of tv ad spots etc and really nothing else for any other game in the series.
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