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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2019 0:28:03 GMT -5
Tna has hit extreme lows But they have a billion dollar canadian conglomerate behind them willing to put some money into a product that has a smaller audience than the other wrestling Roh is backed by one of the biggest media companies in america. They put zero capital into roh. Post msg roh has failed at all levels. Impact's owners also have very shitty production. Some guys still do not get paid. But with impact has fallen so far out of the conversation that their continued low is just them already being at the bottom. So nobody cares Honestly I really wouldn't call Impact incompetent at all right now. They're pretty small time certainly, but they took what was a dead brand literally having to pay people to show up and at least started being able to draw regular crowds with it, and there does certainly seem to be more awareness among the general public what goes on with them over what goes on with a lot of other companies even now. They're never going to be as big as they were but in terms of being a decently visible indie they're not in a bad position at all and the general reception of their product these days is pretty positive. Now if only they would release Killer Kross.
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JoDaNa1281
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Post by JoDaNa1281 on Nov 12, 2019 0:30:20 GMT -5
Tna has hit extreme lows But they have a billion dollar canadian conglomerate behind them willing to put some money into a product that has a smaller audience than the other wrestling Roh is backed by one of the biggest media companies in america. They put zero capital into roh. Post msg roh has failed at all levels. Impact's owners also have very shitty production. Some guys still do not get paid. But with impact has fallen so far out of the conversation that their continued low is just them already being at the bottom. So nobody cares Actually, they do, and quite a few people got raises recently. Plus, Impact's more in the conversation than it has been in years...mainly due to having a good show & even better PPV's.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Nov 12, 2019 0:32:02 GMT -5
Could Ring of Honor have handled the Enzo and Cass situation any worse than what happened?
They ran the angle without NJPW's knowledge, which upset their big business partner because it upstaged the Toru Yano angle occurring at the same time. It pissed off their pre-existing fans who had plenty of reasons not to like Enzo and Cass, the least of which being they were the exact kind of act that traditional RoH did not stand for. But then they didn't follow up with the angle at all while Enzo and Cass were doing social media promos on the Briscoes and GoD, so the new duo didn't even get to bring any new fans to the promotion to replace the ones leaving. RoH didn't even bother disavowing Enzo and Cass either, so their existing fanbase didn't even get reassurance that they wouldn't be back, not that anyone would have believed it due to the work-shoot nature of how they showed up to begin with. Bonus points for the angle happening only an hour after Bret Hart got attacked by a fan at the Hall of Fame, so fans following both shows got to be doubly uncomfortable for the whole thing.
So, they brought in an incredibly divisive act, only to get cold feet immediately afterwards, serving only to piss off their fans and ensure no new fans would be exposed to the product.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2019 0:33:39 GMT -5
Could Ring of Honor have handled the Enzo and Cass situation any worse than what happened? They ran the angle without NJPW's knowledge, which upset their big business partner because it upstaged the Toru Yano angle occurring at the same time. It pissed off their pre-existing fans who had plenty of reasons not to like Enzo and Cass, the least of which being they were the exact kind of act that traditional RoH did not stand for. But then they didn't follow up with the angle at all while Enzo and Cass were doing social media promos on the Briscoes and GoD, so the new duo didn't even get to bring any new fans to the promotion to replace the ones leaving. RoH didn't even bother disavowing Enzo and Cass either, so their existing fanbase didn't even get reassurance that they wouldn't be back, not that anyone would have believed it due to the work-shoot nature of how they showed up to begin with. Bonus points for the angle happening only an hour after Bret Hart got attacked by a fan at the Hall of Fame, so fans following both shows got to be doubly uncomfortable for the whole thing. So, they brought in an incredibly divisive act, only to get cold feet immediately afterwards, serving only to piss off their fans and ensure no new fans would be exposed to the product. And they learned absolutely nothing from this worked shoot stuff completely blowing up in their face because they immediately started up the Shane Taylor angle.
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Post by ogreknee on Nov 12, 2019 0:43:46 GMT -5
Tna has hit extreme lows But they have a billion dollar canadian conglomerate behind them willing to put some money into a product that has a smaller audience than the other wrestling Roh is backed by one of the biggest media companies in america. They put zero capital into roh. Post msg roh has failed at all levels. Impact's owners also have very shitty production. Some guys still do not get paid. But with impact has fallen so far out of the conversation that their continued low is just them already being at the bottom. So nobody cares Actually, they do, and quite a few people got raises recently. Plus, Impact's more in the conversation than it has been in years...mainly due to having a good show & even better PPV's. The board died for a reason. But honestly they are so far out of public consciousness that they don't matter as much. They do have a very good roster. Has a partnership with noah and aaa. But tna went from such a high to non relevance. Does thay take away from their good product? No. But they are not in the conversation as a top promotion. They are a very good indy with great distribution internationally But their inept history haunts them to this day where nobody gives a shit about them ever going back to their heights. Like if impact shut down and started up with a new name they would have had less backlash from everyone. Why did roh not book enzo and cass to work the program. I mean they probably would have brought eyes to the product
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Post by corndog on Nov 12, 2019 12:17:52 GMT -5
ROH. WWE is still way to profitable to be called incompetent right now, regardless of how tasteful their current business practices are. I also don't have enough knowledge of CMLL to have any real opinion on their problems. There were always signs that their reliance on The Elite, and the NJPW relationship could bite them hard if either ever dried up. But I never expected their overall goodwill to tumble so fiercely in the span of months. Everything leading into MSG show seemed to point towards positive outlook. They made a bunch of smart and exciting signings, had the big MSG show on the horizon, and were managing to deliver quality shows in spite of their recently lost star power. But then their disappointing output at MSG really seemed to damper a lot of confidence from it's more causal base. It was their opportunity to put their very best foot forward, and they completely fumbled when they had more eyes on them than ever before. Then there was all the backstage news leaking which highlighted how badly mismanaged the company was from almost every angle: "Be a fan," women being under paid, then not getting paid, but them still paying Matt Taven way above his value, New Japan basically washing their hands of them, the Joey Mercury Twitter tirade, almost everything that's come out has only hurt them more. TNA has hit similar lows, but I don't think it even quite bottomed out as quickly as ROH has managed. It's almost unrecognisable to the company that basically spearheaded the evolution of pro wrestling to today. It's really sad. It really is amazing how quickly ROH fell. I agree, things looked fine before the MSG show, they made some good signings and I felt while losing the Elite would hurt them a little bit, they could pull through. But they really crapped the bed at MSG and kept going in the wrong direction after that. TNA made a lot of stupid mistakes through the years, I would say the 1/4/2010 show was their MSG, but it still didn't push away too much of their fanbase and it took years for them to sink as low as ROH now.
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Post by ogreknee on Nov 12, 2019 13:05:34 GMT -5
ROH. WWE is still way to profitable to be called incompetent right now, regardless of how tasteful their current business practices are. I also don't have enough knowledge of CMLL to have any real opinion on their problems. There were always signs that their reliance on The Elite, and the NJPW relationship could bite them hard if either ever dried up. But I never expected their overall goodwill to tumble so fiercely in the span of months. Everything leading into MSG show seemed to point towards positive outlook. They made a bunch of smart and exciting signings, had the big MSG show on the horizon, and were managing to deliver quality shows in spite of their recently lost star power. But then their disappointing output at MSG really seemed to damper a lot of confidence from it's more causal base. It was their opportunity to put their very best foot forward, and they completely fumbled when they had more eyes on them than ever before. Then there was all the backstage news leaking which highlighted how badly mismanaged the company was from almost every angle: "Be a fan," women being under paid, then not getting paid, but them still paying Matt Taven way above his value, New Japan basically washing their hands of them, the Joey Mercury Twitter tirade, almost everything that's come out has only hurt them more. TNA has hit similar lows, but I don't think it even quite bottomed out as quickly as ROH has managed. It's almost unrecognisable to the company that basically spearheaded the evolution of pro wrestling to today. It's really sad. It really is amazing how quickly ROH fell. I agree, things looked fine before the MSG show, they made some good signings and I felt while losing the Elite would hurt them a little bit, they could pull through. But they really crapped the bed at MSG and kept going in the wrong direction after that. TNA made a lot of stupid mistakes through the years, I would say the 1/4/2010 show was their MSG, but it still didn't push away too much of their fanbase and it took years for them to sink as low as ROH now. ROH falling as fast as it has and continues to do is bewildering. Change bookers. Change backstage people. Change business completely. Because everything is all bad right now
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Post by Hypnosis on Nov 12, 2019 13:49:01 GMT -5
ROH.
-The MSG show disaster -Evil Intent -Bully Ray lecturing the fan -The half-assed effort into the Women's division -Signing so much great talent earlier this year, and not using most of them well -The company relied too much on The Elite and NJPW before the former left, and the NJPW relationship could be coming to a close -World Champion Matt Taven, instead of Marty Scurll -Shane Taylor angle -The poor medical care and pay -Enzo & Cass angle
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chrom
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Post by chrom on Nov 12, 2019 14:05:48 GMT -5
Could Ring of Honor have handled the Enzo and Cass situation any worse than what happened? They ran the angle without NJPW's knowledge, which upset their big business partner because it upstaged the Toru Yano angle occurring at the same time. It pissed off their pre-existing fans who had plenty of reasons not to like Enzo and Cass, the least of which being they were the exact kind of act that traditional RoH did not stand for. But then they didn't follow up with the angle at all while Enzo and Cass were doing social media promos on the Briscoes and GoD, so the new duo didn't even get to bring any new fans to the promotion to replace the ones leaving. RoH didn't even bother disavowing Enzo and Cass either, so their existing fanbase didn't even get reassurance that they wouldn't be back, not that anyone would have believed it due to the work-shoot nature of how they showed up to begin with. Bonus points for the angle happening only an hour after Bret Hart got attacked by a fan at the Hall of Fame, so fans following both shows got to be doubly uncomfortable for the whole thing. So, they brought in an incredibly divisive act, only to get cold feet immediately afterwards, serving only to piss off their fans and ensure no new fans would be exposed to the product. And it was all to be nothing more than a dumb angle that was to get Bully Ray over.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Nov 12, 2019 14:15:56 GMT -5
ROH was artificially inflated by the New Japan connection, it seemed better because it got the rub from it's connection to a better product. Once the Elite left, once they stopped being able to use the Bucks and co and benefit from their buzz all the underlying issues were laid bare, they're a directionless company with stale booking and management who don't care about doing anything but keeping it cheap. While they were busy basking in New Japan's reflected glory, things festered, they didn't put in any work to find themselves a place in the new wrestling landscape or build for the future, New Japan was taking their place as the workrate darling promotion and they just rolled out the welcome mat because it was a short term fix and that's all management cared about.
While management sat on their hands, New Japan has taken their place, AEW too, even the WWE has two in house 'workrate/rising star' promotions in NXT and Evolve. Greg the coffeeboy needs to go, they need new blood on the booking side of things and they need to find a new direction before they slide any further.
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Post by sportatorium on Nov 12, 2019 15:02:59 GMT -5
Ring of Honor. I can’t say WWE because it’s the equivalent of a die hard audiophile complaining that Katy Perry’s music isn’t good. CMLL isn’t that familiar to me, but they seem like they misplayed their hand badly. ROH Septuagint Scurll Just because he might leave later is beyond dumb. Also, it seemed like with the rise of AEW, they could have been in a great position to enhance & improve their TV product and now they’re pretty much the #6 American product. I’d put NWA Powerrr ahead of them.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Nov 13, 2019 0:47:07 GMT -5
Again I'll say this about ROH and the Enzo/Cass worked shoot. The people in charge were shocked that the reception was as negative as it was despite a few wrestlers who knew what was going down saying that it was a bad idea. They were even more shocked when the social media promos started that fans hated it even more.
Now TNA at its worst was so incompetent that it was funny (like seriously some of the stuff when you type it up sounds like a parody) ROH right now isnt even funny in its incompetence.
WWE is just boring most of the time. They make stupid decisions yes but I get the impression they are just in a holding pattern again for Mania season.
Cant comment on CMLL
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Post by ogreknee on Nov 13, 2019 9:52:10 GMT -5
ROH was artificially inflated by the New Japan connection, it seemed better because it got the rub from it's connection to a better product. Once the Elite left, once they stopped being able to use the Bucks and co and benefit from their buzz all the underlying issues were laid bare, they're a directionless company with stale booking and management who don't care about doing anything but keeping it cheap. While they were busy basking in New Japan's reflected glory, things festered, they didn't put in any work to find themselves a place in the new wrestling landscape or build for the future, New Japan was taking their place as the workrate darling promotion and they just rolled out the welcome mat because it was a short term fix and that's all management cared about. While management sat on their hands, New Japan has taken their place, AEW too, even the WWE has two in house 'workrate/rising star' promotions in NXT and Evolve. Greg the coffeeboy needs to go, they need new blood on the booking side of things and they need to find a new direction before they slide any further. New japan has always been bigger than roh. Do not get it twisted. If anything impact became the feeder fed to wwe. And njpw used roh as market research. It turned into njpw usa. Njpw did not replace them as the workrate fed. New japan has always been about the sport. The elite used roh to soft launch aew in 2018 for all out. Njpw lost kenny and cody. But they replaced them with switchblade, kenta, and stronger booking. Roh relied heavily on the elite because they were the draws for roh. That was why lethal was salty. Roh not putting pieces in place to replace the elite beyond villain enterprises is their fault.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Nov 13, 2019 10:21:05 GMT -5
ROH was artificially inflated by the New Japan connection, it seemed better because it got the rub from it's connection to a better product. Once the Elite left, once they stopped being able to use the Bucks and co and benefit from their buzz all the underlying issues were laid bare, they're a directionless company with stale booking and management who don't care about doing anything but keeping it cheap. While they were busy basking in New Japan's reflected glory, things festered, they didn't put in any work to find themselves a place in the new wrestling landscape or build for the future, New Japan was taking their place as the workrate darling promotion and they just rolled out the welcome mat because it was a short term fix and that's all management cared about. While management sat on their hands, New Japan has taken their place, AEW too, even the WWE has two in house 'workrate/rising star' promotions in NXT and Evolve. Greg the coffeeboy needs to go, they need new blood on the booking side of things and they need to find a new direction before they slide any further. New japan has always been bigger than roh. Do not get it twisted. If anything impact became the feeder fed to wwe. And njpw used roh as market research. It turned into njpw usa. Njpw did not replace them as the workrate fed. New japan has always been about the sport. The elite used roh to soft launch aew in 2018 for all out. Njpw lost kenny and cody. But they replaced them with switchblade, kenta, and stronger booking. Roh relied heavily on the elite because they were the draws for roh. That was why lethal was salty. Roh not putting pieces in place to replace the elite beyond villain enterprises is their fault. New Japan was bigger in Japan, but did not have a particularly large presence elsewhere, they worked with other companies but were not really promoting in their own right, content to sit in their niche. With the increased presence in the rest of the world, they absolutely have replaced ROH in the western market market as the workrate fed. Ring of Honour went with someone else's draws over building up their own talent, there was little thought to 'what do we do if this breaks down?' That's entirely their own fault, they need a management purge before they end up as nothing but archive show, screened late night on Sinclair.
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Post by ogreknee on Nov 13, 2019 10:33:25 GMT -5
But who sees njpw as just a workrate fed
It is much more than that
And since roh has fallen as they have and njpw knows there is interest in their brand they decide to cut ties and do their own thing.
Roh has fallen so hard and it is the fault of so many people
I blame delirious
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Nov 13, 2019 12:33:31 GMT -5
ROH for the MSG incident.
At least Crown Jewel made money, I don't even know how to analyse everything wrong with that supershow.
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Ultimo Gallos
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Post by Ultimo Gallos on Nov 13, 2019 14:15:36 GMT -5
Unless something has changed in the last few years CMLL is good. They own a bunch of arenas in Mexico.
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Post by ogreknee on Nov 13, 2019 17:02:26 GMT -5
ROH for the MSG incident. At least Crown Jewel made money, I don't even know how to analyse everything wrong with that supershow. Well technically they did sell it out. The new japan side of the show outclassed roh in every way
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Post by corndog on Nov 14, 2019 10:04:53 GMT -5
ROH was artificially inflated by the New Japan connection, it seemed better because it got the rub from it's connection to a better product. Once the Elite left, once they stopped being able to use the Bucks and co and benefit from their buzz all the underlying issues were laid bare, they're a directionless company with stale booking and management who don't care about doing anything but keeping it cheap. While they were busy basking in New Japan's reflected glory, things festered, they didn't put in any work to find themselves a place in the new wrestling landscape or build for the future, New Japan was taking their place as the workrate darling promotion and they just rolled out the welcome mat because it was a short term fix and that's all management cared about. While management sat on their hands, New Japan has taken their place, AEW too, even the WWE has two in house 'workrate/rising star' promotions in NXT and Evolve. Greg the coffeeboy needs to go, they need new blood on the booking side of things and they need to find a new direction before they slide any further. New japan has always been bigger than roh. Do not get it twisted. If anything impact became the feeder fed to wwe. And njpw used roh as market research. It turned into njpw usa. Njpw did not replace them as the workrate fed. New japan has always been about the sport. The elite used roh to soft launch aew in 2018 for all out. Njpw lost kenny and cody. But they replaced them with switchblade, kenta, and stronger booking. Roh relied heavily on the elite because they were the draws for roh. That was why lethal was salty. Roh not putting pieces in place to replace the elite beyond villain enterprises is their fault. New Japan wasn't bigger in the States than ROH when they first starting working together, but eventually the tide shifted and New Japan was carrying ROH. Although most of that was Bullet Clubs popularity, namely the Elite. It is very interesting what has happened this year. AEW took the Elite's popularity and built what has so far been a successful product and a legit #2 to WWE in the US. New Japan, while losing their top draws in the US, has managed to do shows regularly in the US and draw what ROH was with the Elite and basically replace them in the US wrestling market. While ROH is drawing less than many small indies and becoming nearly obsolete in the US wrestling scene.
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