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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2019 21:31:10 GMT -5
No classic wrestling characters or feuds were ever born from sitting back and accepting L’s.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Dec 5, 2019 21:55:52 GMT -5
So why then is Kofi a multiple time IC, US and Tag champion? Shouldn't he have given up after losing the belt the first time if that's his character?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2019 22:19:19 GMT -5
Joe or Big E should’ve beat him instead of Lesnar.
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segaz
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Post by segaz on Dec 5, 2019 22:59:45 GMT -5
If I were of a different ilk, I might ponder on the fact that some people here still feel Kofi needs to prove himself and work twice as hard as others. I mean, you say you aren't doing that but you're trying to passive aggressively bait people anyway. I think there's something to be had there. But will withhold final judgement pending further evidence.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2019 23:04:48 GMT -5
Remember when Hogan lost the title to Andre due to the twin referee angle, and he went backstage crying in front of Okerlund while having a damn near nervous breakdown as he screamed about the injustice that took place?
Kofi would have congratulated Andre, told Gene to look on the bright side, and never ask for a return match again.
And just to be clear, if it hasn’t been stated already, no one is blaming Kofi the man. It’s him trying to justify the character motivation and bad writing that people are having an issue with. Not sure why people are arguing about the title reign itself. That’s irrelevant. Kofi’s title loss was booked badly, the follow up was written to make him look like an idiot, and he’s defending it rather than just saying he had nothing to do with the writing.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 11:58:10 GMT -5
You think all the alternatives mentioned in the thread would've received the same level of vitriol as the nothingness that happened? Man, I don't know what to say other than I think you're dead wrong. Everything gets criticized to a degree, yes, but it just would not have been on this same level. 5 minutes. He admits that he wasn't properly prepared and he got caught. He thanks the fans, then charges up the babyface fire that he showed he's SO f***ing good at and vows to be back. Enter Revival/Drew McIntyre/whoever to start the next feud. There's some proper closure and the start of the next chapter. @ your last part.. Well, yeah. I'm criticizing the booking here if that wasn't clear. Shit left an awful taste in my mouth and took me from watching every now and then to catching a PPV if I'm burnt out on football that day. Yeah, I think people would shit on it regardless given people have been shitting on pretty much most of this Kofi rise since it started. Sans the WM win everything else has had people criticizing it. I'm just not going to believe that if they did this one thing it'll suddenly be ok with people because that's just not how most fans are when it comes to things they dislike. When it gets to a point where they're saying it completely invalidates a reign? Nah, I'm personally not going to take that seriously. To the 5 minutes thing that goes back to my previous comment. Kofi's mentioned his loss to Lesnar prior to this, it's not something that suddenly came out of nowhere with this interview. The issue is WWE's conditioned the fans to think if it doesn't happen through a live segment on SD, Raw or a PPV then it doesn't matter so yeah that goes back to Kofi's comment as him not being the one who writes the show. He's commented on the Lesnar loss and he basically did all the stuff you're saying he didn't do. So you're saying it doesn't matter unless it's on a segment which is what I'm getting at. Saying people shit on it is a bit disingenous; Were there detractors? Sure, but there was also wayyyy more positivity about Kofi's rise than I'd seen for any long-term storyline since I started watching again a few years back. Nothing even comes close, tbh. People were talking about how much they wanted him to win, the high quality work put in by The New Day, Rowan, Bryan. You had people saying they were crying when he won; that doesn't happen if they're not invested in the story leading up to it. Even post-Mania most of the criticism was about who they chose as his opponents. And hell yeah it should've been on SD. 100%. You're correct to assume that's what I was saying. That's what most of your audience sees, and it's the proper forum for closure. The web-exclusive stuff -- while usually higher quality than what they put on the actual shows -- just doesn't really matter. They don't want it to matter, so it doesn't.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 12:13:04 GMT -5
Saying people shit on it is a bit disingenous; Were there detractors? Sure, but there was also wayyyy more positivity about Kofi's rise than I'd seen for any long-term storyline since I started watching again a few years back. Nothing even comes close, tbh. People were talking about how much they wanted him to win, the high quality work put in by The New Day, Rowan, Bryan. You had people saying they were crying when he won; that doesn't happen if they're not invested in the story leading up to it. Even post-Mania most of the criticism was about who they chose as his opponents. And hell yeah it should've been on SD. 100%. You're correct to assume that's what I was saying. That's what most of your audience sees, and it's the proper forum for closure. The web-exclusive stuff -- while usually higher quality than what they put on the actual shows -- just doesn't really matter. They don't want it to matter, so it doesn't. You can think it's disingenuous for me to say it but that's what I believe and nothing you're saying is going to change that. We know how most wrestling fans are these days. Whether it was the fact that Kofi wasn't built up well enough to be in the EC match, to face Bryan at WM, to win his first feud, go against Orton, there's just always something that's a good amount of people said to take away from his reign even though his win and reign overall was positive. Nowhere did I say everyone thought that but people would have to be blind to not see that there's a good amount who turned away from it regardless of what greatness the reign had whether it's what I've stated or even more so complaining about Kofi's character. At the end of the day there's always going to be a good amount who just crap on anything regardless because it doesn't match what they like and the same applies to most things. Kofi's not excluded in this because what we think about his win was dope, he's exactly like the others and that doesn't change. It happened with AJ's year long run, happened with Becky, it happened with Seth when he was liked by people, it happens to everyone. This even happened during Bryan's WM30 storyline. Again, Kofi's not excluded.
With that said if it gets to a point where a loss can erase all of that? Then that puts it into perspective that in said people's eyes the loss was more important and impactful than the journey, win and numerous retention matches until the Lesnar one.
Finally to the "it should have been on SD" comment, that's the question I've had since the beginning. You believe the "if it's not on ppv and official shows it doesn't matter" thing when the reality is no that's not true, when you have someone who's putting the pieces to the story together in character you can't say it didn't happen just because it's not on those shows let alone with the company itself puts the video up on their official website to connect the pieces. That doesn't make any sense. For you, it would make your idea of the story more secure but from a story perspective that's just not accurate. That's like saying for any manga anything they include in a databook doesn't have any relevancy because it's not in the official manga when the reality is no, it's still accurate and it's still there to give you information towards said thing it's explaining. It doesn't matter if the manga never brings it up because the databook is there to give added information. There's a difference between thinking something is "bad" and something just not happening at all. We're not talking about the opinion that something is "bad", we're talking about the fact that something even happened.
It goes back to my comment earlier. We have numerous threads, posts and comments about people cutting promos off of shows that are raved, highlighted, praised, stuff like that that apparently matters when it's not on official shows and yet when Kofi's giving people what they want here it doesn't matter and apparently doesn't count when all that other stuff did?
That just doesn't fly. That's being biased and that's basically saying "well it doesn't happen the way I want it so it doesn't matter but if I did like it then it would matter." That, I can't stress it enough, is based on feelings rather than facts. If people wanna talk feelings then talk feelings but we can't act like feelings override actual facts. That should be common sense.
Basically if someone said "ok, yeah Kofi did what I wanted him to do in that post-Lesnar match Youtube video. He said he was emotional, said he wanted to get the belt back, said he'd even go through Cain to do it, said he's not done with Brock, I get it. I just wish the company did this in a promo on SD instead so everyone could see it so it makes more sense for me" then I'd completely understand and there'd be no further questions. I agree with that.
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Post by sportatorium on Dec 6, 2019 15:19:47 GMT -5
Kofi sounds like he knows the whole thing was stupid, but is moving on and grateful that he had a nice reign as champion. Can’t fault him for that, and he’ll likely get another main event run someday.
That said, the booking for him to drop the title was beyond awful. Way before the announcement that Brock was moving over to Raw. Kofi was booked like he was either injured or leaving the company. He was champion at the time and easily could have gone to Vince and asked for the chance to put Brock over in an actual match rather than a squash.
That didn’t happen and there isn’t much left for Kofi to say about it. He’s a great wrestler, a future hall of famer and is still completely over.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 16:00:03 GMT -5
Kofi sounds like he knows the whole thing was stupid, but is moving on and grateful that he had a nice reign as champion. Can’t fault him for that, and he’ll likely get another main event run someday. That said, the booking for him to drop the title was beyond awful. Way before the announcement that Brock was moving over to Raw. Kofi was booked like he was either injured or leaving the company. He was champion at the time and easily could have gone to Vince and asked for the chance to put Brock over in an actual match rather than a squash. That didn’t happen and there isn’t much left for Kofi to say about it. He’s a great wrestler, a future hall of famer and is still completely over. The way he lost the title made him look like a heel champion finally getting his own comeuppance. Dude couldn't at least counter one F5 by landing on his feet or hit one Trouble in Paradise?
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 6, 2019 16:02:35 GMT -5
He doesn't give a shit, and rightfully so. Nothing means anything in WWE anymore. Not worth getting bothered about it from a wrestler's POV. Just get the cheque.
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Post by The Ichi on Dec 6, 2019 16:04:54 GMT -5
That sounds a bit one dimensional to me. Just because he's a happy-go-lucky doesn't mean he should be that way all the time, especially when the belt is involved. Mankind was a happy-go-lucky guy. When he was wronged, he was out for blood.
Just a reminder why I tapped out with WWE.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Dec 6, 2019 16:09:47 GMT -5
The booking made no sense, especially it was all to build towards a Cain Velasquez match where... Brock won in like three minutes or so.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Dec 7, 2019 18:41:26 GMT -5
People on social media are celebrating Anthony Joshua's victory over Andy Ruiz Jr. Ruiz Jr. beat Joshua for the WBO title, but Joshua won it back in the rematch.
That's how you do a comeback storyline, WWE.
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kidkamikaze10
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Dec 7, 2019 19:51:28 GMT -5
Kofi the character - I want Big E to go heel over this defeatist nonsense.
Kofi the guy - sounds like he knew he got his one shot and enjoyed it. Cool for him.
WWE - proving again why I’m sticking to AEW and indies for as long as I can. Can’t stand this crap. Indefensible in my eyes.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Dec 7, 2019 23:09:43 GMT -5
People on social media are celebrating Anthony Joshua's victory over Andy Ruiz Jr. Ruiz Jr. beat Joshua for the WBO title, but Joshua won it back in the rematch. That's how you do a comeback storyline, WWE. Right... Isn't that just 50/50 booking?
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Dec 7, 2019 23:14:38 GMT -5
Kofi with a 6 month reign is great, even if it was just a "Thank You" reign.
Kofi getting insta-murked by Brock sucks. Even with the racial component aside, ANYBODY losing to Brock that fast sucks.
And yeah, it's frustrating that they're not giving him regular TV mic time to let him say he's still Main Event level.
But I'm not sure what he can really do about that.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2019 2:02:06 GMT -5
I just realized Kofi is a total Gohan.
Piccolo: "You peaked."
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Malcolm
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Post by Malcolm on Dec 8, 2019 2:10:30 GMT -5
The booking made no sense, especially it was all to build towards a Cain Velasquez match where... Brock won in like three minutes or so. Gotta make Brock look strong...
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 8, 2019 6:29:29 GMT -5
There's another component of the awful booking that just adds a brick to this load: people were genuinely excited to see Kofi win the title on the biggest stage, and felt invested in watching him get there and celebrating his achieving his dream. That's good! But by ending his reign the way they did, by reverting things to status quo and acting like Kofi was never champion to begin with, not having his character evolve at all, not even really having him react to what happened...the bigger picture message you're sending to your fans is "don't get too excited about anything that happens at Wrestlemania. It won't really matter, anyway."
Kofi's win happened, and it was really well done; in the moment, it absolutely mattered, both for storytelling purposes as well as for historical ones. He then held the belt long enough that he should have been thoroughly legitimized as a main event presence in the company going forward, with fans fully expecting him to come back into the title scene at some point once he lost the belt. More than that, given the road he had to take to win, the title win/reign/eventual loss should have had some kind of impact on him as a character, caused him to evolve or react in a given way. As said previously no one's asking for Kofi to throw a fit over losing; hell, he could take his loss in stride on some level.
But you need to demonstrate that things that happen matter beyond the moment: did getting to the top only to lose like that shake Kofi's confidence? Did it just make him more determined to be even better and try again? Did it cause him to feel like he failed, and take him to a darker mental space? Did it offer a chance to demonstrate how he can rely on his friends even in those darkest moments? There's any number of different storylines you can present from the opening act of "popular babyface champion has a dream title win, solid title reign, but loses in a way he never would have expected", and each involve showing how the babyface reacts to what happened. If the reaction is basically "no reaction" and "return to status quo", then that's abysmal writing, and you're telling me that the next time there's a hot storyline going into Wrestlemania that I shouldn't really care what the outcome is, because it won't matter in the long run.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Dec 8, 2019 12:21:59 GMT -5
People on social media are celebrating Anthony Joshua's victory over Andy Ruiz Jr. Ruiz Jr. beat Joshua for the WBO title, but Joshua won it back in the rematch. That's how you do a comeback storyline, WWE. Right... Isn't that just 50/50 booking? Yes and no. Yes, quite literally, as in, of the two matches, each boxer has won one match apiece. No, as in, WWE's 50/50 booking is the result of trading wins and losses over several matches, i.e., more than three, over a series of months, and in doing so burning out interest in that feud. The year when Charlotte and Sasha Banks traded the Women's title back and forth is an example of this. Or the number of times John Cena and Randy Orton fought on PPV. Three matches in a feud are fine only when the third match is 'the rubber match'. With my example, I suppose Joshua and Ruiz Jr. could have another match to see who ultimately is the better boxer. But yes, as of right now, Joshua vs. Ruiz Jr. is quite literally 50/50. But will it ever be 66/33?
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