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Post by Alexander The So-so on Dec 20, 2019 22:16:27 GMT -5
Something else I just realized:
Leia is the one who finishes Rey’s Jedi training in this, even having a lightsaber all along, right?
So...
1. What happened to Luke being “the last Jedi?” And that’s not just Rian Johnson’s invention: TFA also refers to Luke as “the last Jedi” in its opening crawl. So J.J. is essentially retconning himself.
2. If Leia could’ve just trained Rey all along, why was it necessary to go find Luke in the first place? Why didn’t Leia just train her from the start?
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Dec 20, 2019 22:37:56 GMT -5
Something else I just realized: Leia is the one who finishes Rey’s Jedi training in this, even having a lightsaber all along, right? So... 1. What happened to Luke being “the last Jedi?” And that’s not just Rian Johnson’s invention: TFA also refers to Luke as “the last Jedi” in its opening crawl. So J.J. is essentially retconning himself. 2. If Leia could’ve just trained Rey all along, why was it necessary to go find Luke in the first place? Why didn’t Leia just train her from the start? For every movie in this trilogy, the more you think the worse they get.
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Post by Alexander The So-so on Dec 20, 2019 22:45:34 GMT -5
Another one:
Did Kylo and Rey seriously use the Force to bring each other back from the dead in this movie?
Which is the same power that Anakin tried and failed to pursue in order to save Padmé, and which was the start of his descent to the dark side, because the Jedi consider that wrong and unnatural, and, per Yoda, the Jedi philosophy is that all things are temporary and people must let go of who and what they love?
And yet Ben and Rey both do it, and both end up on the light side, without any thought of the implications?
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 20, 2019 22:50:32 GMT -5
Which is the same power that Anakin tried and failed to pursue in order to save Padmé, and which was the start of his descent to the dark side, because the Jedi consider that wrong and unnatural, and, per Yoda, the Jedi philosophy is that all things are temporary and people must let go of who and what they love? Well, one of the primary takes from the prequels was that the Jedi were ultimately full of shit and had gotten too dogmatic.
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Post by Slingshot Suplay on Dec 20, 2019 23:14:00 GMT -5
*looks at Snoke, then Ian McDiarmid and back to Snoke* Um....something went a bit wrong with that batch. In one of the comics he tells Ben Solo that Luke Skywalker gave him the damage. Either it is a lie to make him sympathetic to Ben Solo, or the clones having the same damage was just not thought about by whoever's job continuity is. Also, Snoke has a stupid as shit hat that looks like bangs Snoke looks like he's gonna lure kylo in his van instead of to the dark side...
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Post by Slingshot Suplay on Dec 20, 2019 23:16:16 GMT -5
I just saw it and I don't know what to think about it right now. It was alot to process but I have to see it again to make sense of it. I wasn't bored at all, but there was alot to swallow.... and I still don't like Rey.
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adamclark52
El Dandy
I'm one with the Force; the Force is with me
Posts: 8,139
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Post by adamclark52 on Dec 20, 2019 23:25:52 GMT -5
The only part that gave me any semblance of wood was Wedges “blink and you miss it” cameo
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adamclark52
El Dandy
I'm one with the Force; the Force is with me
Posts: 8,139
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Post by adamclark52 on Dec 20, 2019 23:43:34 GMT -5
So what Jedi voices was everyone hearing talking to REY at the end and Kylo during his redemption scene?
I heard Luke, Leia, Yoda and I think Obi-Wan and Mace Windu during Rey’s.
During Kylos I only remember hearing Vader.
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Shark
Hank Scorpio
The world's only Samurai Ninja Pirate
Posts: 7,045
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Post by Shark on Dec 21, 2019 0:06:48 GMT -5
Something else I just realized: Leia is the one who finishes Rey’s Jedi training in this, even having a lightsaber all along, right? So... 1. What happened to Luke being “the last Jedi?” And that’s not just Rian Johnson’s invention: TFA also refers to Luke as “the last Jedi” in its opening crawl. So J.J. is essentially retconning himself. 2. If Leia could’ve just trained Rey all along, why was it necessary to go find Luke in the first place? Why didn’t Leia just train her from the start? 1. Leia never considered herself a Jedi. On the last night of her training, she saw her future where her son turned to the Dark Side so she refused to become a Jedi herself. Clearly explained in the movie. So Luke was very much the last Jedi. 2. They were not looking for Luke so he could train Rey. They were looking for him to get him to turn the tide against the First Order. No one even knew about Rey at the start of Force Awakens. Luke training Rey wasn't on the table until after Rey fought Kylo on Starkiller base. After Luke died, Leia had little choice but to help train Rey. Another one: Did Kylo and Rey seriously use the Force to bring each other back from the dead in this movie? Which is the same power that Anakin tried and failed to pursue in order to save Padmé, and which was the start of his descent to the dark side, because the Jedi consider that wrong and unnatural, and, per Yoda, the Jedi philosophy is that all things are temporary and people must let go of who and what they love? And yet Ben and Rey both do it, and both end up on the light side, without any thought of the implications? Rey just healed Kylo. He was stabbed, but still alive when she healed him. He did bring her back to life though at the cost of his own.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 21, 2019 0:18:23 GMT -5
What in the flippin' goddamn was Palpatine's PLAN? Use Snoke to train Kylo, so eventually Kylo will show up on the Sith planet... then send Kylo to kill Rey, hoping that Rey will kill Kylo, so then Rey will come to the Sith planet because Kylo's management will be so bad you can assume SOMEONE will have leaked the plan to the rebels, and then goad Rey into killing Palpatine by threatening her friends, and Palpatine wins if he's killed (??) because Rey will become a Sith if she kills him (??) and he lives in the bodies of all Sith (??), except then she DOES kill him and that doesn't happen, so.... he's just full of shit, then?
I mean he could have just surprised everyone with his death fleet and used his power ruling the galaxy to make new Sith but hey I'm not a space supervillain what do I know
Y'know, George Lucas didn't think the whole Jedi thing out very hard and if the whole thing isn't going to be actually explored and dug into a la KOTOR2, they need to drop it. "Killing is fine as long as you're not angry when you do it" is not actually a very useful or meaningful rule. And Sith is just evil for evil's sake.
Also Chewie's dead and it's very dramatic!!!!! oh wait no he's fine there was just another ship you never saw. also C3PO is going to lose his memories it's very dramatic and sad!! oh wait no R2 backed him up lol nothing has stakes
And thematically, this movie was... actually, it's kind of hard to say what it was. They were trying to say as little as possible, which resulted in a very empty and boring movie. Hey friendship is good and love is powerful, and it doesn't matter who your parents are except when it does! (and forget about the last movie starting to ask complicated questions about whether the old structures still work: Rey literally wins because she connects to the power of old dead people!)
And I mentioned this in the other thread, but the attempts to appeal to shippers were hamfistedly awful and had some very weird choices. The Kylo/Rey kiss got loud groans in the theater, Finn's suggested Rey love was just a coy wink to the audience, and both Finn and Poe get weird sorta girlfriends that aren't. (The fact that Finn's is one of the very few other black people in the movie was... uncomfortable. It felt like they assumed he needed a black girlfriend and then decided against it at the last minute. And the Lando scene was so ambiguous, half of us thought she was his secret daughter, and the other half thought they went back somewhere private and screwed.)
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Post by Alexander The So-so on Dec 21, 2019 0:55:51 GMT -5
Something else I just realized: Leia is the one who finishes Rey’s Jedi training in this, even having a lightsaber all along, right? So... 1. What happened to Luke being “the last Jedi?” And that’s not just Rian Johnson’s invention: TFA also refers to Luke as “the last Jedi” in its opening crawl. So J.J. is essentially retconning himself. 2. If Leia could’ve just trained Rey all along, why was it necessary to go find Luke in the first place? Why didn’t Leia just train her from the start? 1. Leia never considered herself a Jedi. On the last night of her training, she saw her future where her son turned to the Dark Side so she refused to become a Jedi herself. Clearly explained in the movie. So Luke was very much the last Jedi. 2. They were not looking for Luke so he could train Rey. They were looking for him to get him to turn the tide against the First Order. No one even knew about Rey at the start of Force Awakens. Luke training Rey wasn't on the table until after Rey fought Kylo on Starkiller base. After Luke died, Leia had little choice but to help train Rey. Another one: Did Kylo and Rey seriously use the Force to bring each other back from the dead in this movie? Which is the same power that Anakin tried and failed to pursue in order to save Padmé, and which was the start of his descent to the dark side, because the Jedi consider that wrong and unnatural, and, per Yoda, the Jedi philosophy is that all things are temporary and people must let go of who and what they love? And yet Ben and Rey both do it, and both end up on the light side, without any thought of the implications? Rey just healed Kylo. He was stabbed, but still alive when she healed him. He did bring her back to life though at the cost of his own. 1. So...if she had a vision of her son turning to the dark side, why’d she send him to Jedi train with Uncle Luke? And if she had this vision, why didn’t she tell Luke, so that Luke knew what to expect and wasn’t so shocked to sense so much darkness in him that he’d raise his blade on him in his sleep? And what does her son turning have to do with her own power? 2. So...why would they be looking to bring back Luke then, after it had already been several years since Kylo had turned to the dark side? Keep in mind that Hosnian Prime hadn’t been blown up yet by that time. And why did they think it would succeed, since he’d already made it clear that he had gone to Acho-To to die? And if they really wanted to convince him to come back, why would they send some strange girl he’d never met on such a mission of utmost importance to convince him to change his mind on such a drastic decision? And by the end of TFA, they’d already learned then that Rey was stupidly powerful with the Force; why didn’t Leia see then that they didn’t need Luke after all, especially considering that Leia had to have known about Luke’s vow never to train another generation of Jedi? 3. So...if healing wounds that would otherwise be fatal is a thing, why didn’t, say...Obi-Wan heal Qui-Gon when he was still barely alive in his arms as he lay dying from (also) a lightsaber impalement back in TPM? Why didn’t Luke heal his wounded redeemed father before he died? I also echo the questions raised about about what Palpatine’s plan even was. That sparks even more questions: 1. If Palpatine was behind Ben’s turn to the dark side all along, why bother creating Snoke as a puppet/clone/intermediary in the first place? Why didn’t he just reveal his true identity to Kylo Ren early on? Wouldn’t Kylo, who in TFA is shown to be a Vader fanboy who wants to “finish what his grandfather started,” be much more compelled to stay loyal to the cause if he knew that he was actually studying under his idolized grandfather’s actual mentor and master, and that one clear way he’d be able to prove himself would be by showing Palpatine he wouldn’t betray him like Vader did in the end? Why’d he instead impersonate some previously unknown rando? Hell, wouldn’t revealing his true identity have made it easier to rally the First Order in general? If the First Order was supposed to be a remnant of Imperial fanatics, wouldn’t they have been extra charged up to serve under the old Empire’s actual personality-cult dictator in the flesh? 2. Why’d Palpatine start giving orders to Kylo at all? This is the same guy who just killed his puppet/clone/intermediary on a random impulse, partially in order to try to impress Rey. Kylo had already proven that he was a loose cannon, AND that he had a soft spot for Rey. So why on earth would Palpatine think that asking Kylo to go find and kill Rey would go well for him? Particularly since Rey has already kicked his ass before?
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adamclark52
El Dandy
I'm one with the Force; the Force is with me
Posts: 8,139
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Post by adamclark52 on Dec 21, 2019 1:11:09 GMT -5
Hux went out like such a bitch and his reveal as the mole was hilarious
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Post by Duke Cameron on Dec 21, 2019 1:12:54 GMT -5
Something else I just realized: Leia is the one who finishes Rey’s Jedi training in this, even having a lightsaber all along, right? So... 1. What happened to Luke being “the last Jedi?” And that’s not just Rian Johnson’s invention: TFA also refers to Luke as “the last Jedi” in its opening crawl. So J.J. is essentially retconning himself. 2. If Leia could’ve just trained Rey all along, why was it necessary to go find Luke in the first place? Why didn’t Leia just train her from the start? 1. Leia never considered herself a Jedi. On the last night of her training, she saw her future where her son turned to the Dark Side so she refused to become a Jedi herself. Clearly explained in the movie. So Luke was very much the last Jedi. 2. They were not looking for Luke so he could train Rey. They were looking for him to get him to turn the tide against the First Order. No one even knew about Rey at the start of Force Awakens. Luke training Rey wasn't on the table until after Rey fought Kylo on Starkiller base. After Luke died, Leia had little choice but to help train Rey. Another one: Did Kylo and Rey seriously use the Force to bring each other back from the dead in this movie? Which is the same power that Anakin tried and failed to pursue in order to save Padmé, and which was the start of his descent to the dark side, because the Jedi consider that wrong and unnatural, and, per Yoda, the Jedi philosophy is that all things are temporary and people must let go of who and what they love? And yet Ben and Rey both do it, and both end up on the light side, without any thought of the implications? Rey just healed Kylo. He was stabbed, but still alive when she healed him. He did bring her back to life though at the cost of his own. Why would she decide not to become a Jedi because of visions of him turning? How would her being a Jedi or not matter in his destiny? Unless I’m misunderstanding her thought process.
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Post by Alexander The So-so on Dec 21, 2019 1:15:17 GMT -5
Hux went out like such a bitch and his reveal as the mole was hilarious I’ve gotta ask: was it at all clear how long Hux had been a mole? Was it all along, or was it something that happened after TLJ? If the former...so that would basically mean he was a mole even when he was making that Nazi speech on Starkiller Base and overseeing the destruction of Hosnian Prime? Why didn’t he break his cover and betray the First Order THEN? If the latter...so, nuking the capital of the New Republic and committing mass genocide, he was fine with, but taking orders from a temperamental man-child, THAT’S what caused him to reevaluate his life?
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Post by mcmahonfan85 on Dec 21, 2019 1:31:12 GMT -5
1. Leia never considered herself a Jedi. On the last night of her training, she saw her future where her son turned to the Dark Side so she refused to become a Jedi herself. Clearly explained in the movie. So Luke was very much the last Jedi. 1. So...if she had a vision of her son turning to the dark side, why’d she send him to Jedi train with Uncle Luke? And if she had this vision, why didn’t she tell Luke, so that Luke knew what to expect and wasn’t so shocked to sense so much darkness in him that he’d raise his blade on him in his sleep? And what does her son turning have to do with her own power? her vision wasn't that her son would turn to the dark side, it was the end of her path as a Jedi would be her son's death. thus she chose to not become a Jedi
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Post by mcmahonfan85 on Dec 21, 2019 1:36:46 GMT -5
Hux went out like such a bitch and his reveal as the mole was hilarious I’ve gotta ask: was it at all clear how long Hux had been a mole? Was it all along, or was it something that happened after TLJ? If the former...so that would basically mean he was a mole even when he was making that Nazi speech on Starkiller Base and overseeing the destruction of Hosnian Prime? Why didn’t he break his cover and betray the First Order THEN? If the latter...so, nuking the capital of the New Republic and committing mass genocide, he was fine with, but taking orders from a temperamental man-child, THAT’S what caused him to reevaluate his life? pretty sure it happened after Last Jedi his motivation for helping was purely personal. as he stated in the movie, he didn't care about the Resistance winning or not, he just wanted Kylo Ren defeated (and with Kylo out of the way, there's no one to stop him from taking control of the First Order)
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Dec 21, 2019 1:44:57 GMT -5
just left the theater, and the movie is a lot like the entire trilogy: fun but utterly pointless after ending the saga in "Return of the Jedi" by killing the emperor, defeating the Empire, destroying the Sith, and restoring peace and justice to the galaxy, they undid all that and created a new trilogy so they could end the saga by killing the emperor, defeating the Empire First Order Final Order, destroying the Sith, and restoring peace and justice to the galaxy. they're back at the same spot they were at 36 years ago Yeah but wait until you see what happens in 36 years when remnants of the Final Order make a run at taking over the galaxy. And the Emperor is back again. And get this, this time, they’re called the Dark Ord— wait.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 21, 2019 1:46:35 GMT -5
Hux went out like such a bitch and his reveal as the mole was hilarious I’ve gotta ask: was it at all clear how long Hux had been a mole? Was it all along, or was it something that happened after TLJ? If the former...so that would basically mean he was a mole even when he was making that Nazi speech on Starkiller Base and overseeing the destruction of Hosnian Prime? Why didn’t he break his cover and betray the First Order THEN? If the latter...so, nuking the capital of the New Republic and committing mass genocide, he was fine with, but taking orders from a temperamental man-child, THAT’S what caused him to reevaluate his life? In the first two movies and in the novels was rabidly loyal to Snoke and felt nothing but disdain for Kylo Ren. He simply hates Kylo more than he hates the Resistance. Pretty much space Rudolf Hess.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 21, 2019 2:02:49 GMT -5
Hux went out like such a bitch and his reveal as the mole was hilarious gah, Hux was one of the most interesting parts of the movies to me, before this one. He was a sniveling little asshole, but he was a better leader than Kylo and he knew it. Kylo just was on top because he had the Force. It showed this ridiculous hole in the structure, connected to Sith philosophy, where the biggest bad-ass is on top regardless of whether they'd actually be effective in that role. Hux was watching his whole enterprise getting undercut and ruined because it was led by a guy who didn't care about anything but settling his own personal scores, and he couldn't fight it because it was a philosophy he bought in to... but it was being exposed to him as stupid. And then here, well... I guess we have to establish that general guy who, uh, was working for Palpatine and against Kylo the whole time? ?
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Dec 21, 2019 2:40:49 GMT -5
Visually stunning. Some parts I liked. Story wise? Woof.
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