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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2020 22:22:45 GMT -5
He's not wrong I think majority of everyone would have signed a one year deal. They might have been without Pippen but they could got a decent piece for him Going for 7 without Scottie would have been tough, even with the lockout shortened season. Everyone was a year older and the Spurs were just about to begin their rise with Duncan. The piece they got for Pipp would have had to have been someone capable of being a #2 option on a title contender and complement Jordan's game. It's an interesting "what if" though. I agree everyone else would have come back for one year. As a Raptors fan, a part of me resents Kawhi for not coming back to defend the championship. I can't imagine what Bulls fans and Bulls players felt when MANAGEMENT did not want to defend a 3 peat. That's insanity.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 17, 2020 22:27:55 GMT -5
He's not wrong I think majority of everyone would have signed a one year deal. They might have been without Pippen but they could got a decent piece for him Going for 7 without Scottie would have been tough, even with the lockout shortened season. Everyone was a year older and the Spurs were just about to begin their rise with Duncan. The piece they got for Pipp would have had to have been someone capable of being a #2 option on a title contender and complement Jordan's game. It's an interesting "what if" though. I agree everyone else would have come back for one year. As a Raptors fan, a part of me resents Kawhi for not coming back to defend the championship. I can't imagine what Bulls fans and Bulls players felt when MANAGEMENT did not want to defend a 3 peat. That's insanity. See Kawhi is different though. He did his job. It was no secret he preferred to be in L.A. They brought him in to win a chip and he did, asking for anything more is selfish What Mike wanted to do was go out on his shield. With or without Pippen, he wanted the ability to defend the championship with majority of the squad. If they couldn't get a decent return for Pippen it would have not been worth it and Mike nor Phil would have returned if they didn't have Pippen or someone close to his ability
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Post by The Rick Jericho on May 17, 2020 22:37:56 GMT -5
Here's a big what if.
What if the Bulls traded Scottie Pippen for Charles Barkley?
Jordan finally plays with his friend.
Longley Barkley Kukoc Jordan Harper
Bench: Kerr, Wennington, Buchler, Brown, Burrell and a few free agents.
Is that enough for #7?
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2020 22:43:36 GMT -5
Going for 7 without Scottie would have been tough, even with the lockout shortened season. Everyone was a year older and the Spurs were just about to begin their rise with Duncan. The piece they got for Pipp would have had to have been someone capable of being a #2 option on a title contender and complement Jordan's game. It's an interesting "what if" though. I agree everyone else would have come back for one year. As a Raptors fan, a part of me resents Kawhi for not coming back to defend the championship. I can't imagine what Bulls fans and Bulls players felt when MANAGEMENT did not want to defend a 3 peat. That's insanity. See Kawhi is different though. He did his job. It was no secret he preferred to be in L.A. They brought him in to win a chip and he did, asking for anything more is selfish What Mike wanted to do was go out on his shield. With or without Pippen, he wanted the ability to defend the championship with majority of the squad. If they couldn't get a decent return for Pippen it would have not been worth it and Mike nor Phil would have returned if they didn't have Pippen or someone close to his ability Yeah I completely understand Kawhi's decision, he was a one year "hired gun", someone to put a good team over the top. If he stayed it would have been gravy. But still, as a fan, it hurt. As far as the Bulls, without Scottie, it probably wouldn't have made sense to bring everyone back. The return in a Pippen trade had to be an all star or better player. For Scottie who was going to be 33 at the time, I'm not sure that type of trade offer would have materialized. Not surprisingly, Pippen's 1999 season was the beginning of his statistical decline. That Bulls team probably did not have much longer before they had to be dismantled anyway, or at least retooled. They probably had one more year in them, but not much more than that. I still think you try to defend a championship, though. It's insulting to the players and fans if management cuts the cord like that. I could understand Jordan being upset.
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Post by cabbageboy on May 17, 2020 22:55:24 GMT -5
Wasn't Pippen in the last year of his deal in 1998 though? They couldn't trade him for anyone at all, he just walked to Houston (and then to Portland). Or I guess it was some convoluted sign and trade but either way Pippen wasn't hanging around Chicago. As far as 1999 goes, I mean hell the Knicks were the 8 seed and came out of the East so the Bulls could have done that. I dunno about them against the Spurs with Robinson and Duncan though. That's quite the front court and the Bulls had no real match ups there. We never really got a Bulls/Spurs series in the 90s, which could have been cool. Ditto Bulls/Rockets.
There are a couple of big time omissions here that I can't fathom why it wasn't mentioned: One I already mentioned was the notorious Hue Hollins call on Pippen in Game 5 vs. the Knicks in 1994. The other was even more egregious since it's an all time iconic moment. I was even thinking about it all day today in anticipation of them talking about the 1997 Finals. How on earth did they not talk about Pippen's famed "The Mailman doesn't deliver on Sunday" line to Malone right before Malone missed both FTs (which led to the Jordan buzzer beater)? It's like the series goes out of its way not to let Pippen get any heat or sympathy aside from playing through the pain in Game 6 in 1998 (and even then it's basically there to make Jordan more heroic).
Is there any doubt the 1997 Jazz were the best Finals opponent the Bulls faced? One game was the aforementioned "Mailman" game. Another win the was the "Flu Game" that was deconstructed tonight as being "The Food Poisoning Game." And of course the Kerr game winner to clinch. That's 3 wild last second victories. But no, there's no serious argument that the Pacers were better than the Bulls in 1998. The Bulls won 62 games even without Pippen for half the season, while the Pacers won 58. If Pippen simply makes a couple of FTs that series is likely a trivial 5 games instead of the wild 7 game epic it became (man, another moment Pippen looked like a jobber).
I kinda wish the final shot had been even more epic. I'm talking bust out the theme from Requiem For a Dream here and inter cut Jordan's various buzzer beaters over the years dating back to the 1982 title game, then climax the music as the shot goes in. Just go all out epic with it.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 18, 2020 0:22:32 GMT -5
Wasn't Pippen in the last year of his deal in 1998 though? They couldn't trade him for anyone at all, he just walked to Houston (and then to Portland). Or I guess it was some convoluted sign and trade but either way Pippen wasn't hanging around Chicago. As far as 1999 goes, I mean hell the Knicks were the 8 seed and came out of the East so the Bulls could have done that. I dunno about them against the Spurs with Robinson and Duncan though. That's quite the front court and the Bulls had no real match ups there. We never really got a Bulls/Spurs series in the 90s, which could have been cool. Ditto Bulls/Rockets. Yea 98 was his last year and they worked a sign and trade to Houston I think Jordan knew the importance and would have taken some less to get Scottie a decent number on a one year deal
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 18, 2020 0:28:44 GMT -5
See Kawhi is different though. He did his job. It was no secret he preferred to be in L.A. They brought him in to win a chip and he did, asking for anything more is selfish What Mike wanted to do was go out on his shield. With or without Pippen, he wanted the ability to defend the championship with majority of the squad. If they couldn't get a decent return for Pippen it would have not been worth it and Mike nor Phil would have returned if they didn't have Pippen or someone close to his ability Yeah I completely understand Kawhi's decision, he was a one year "hired gun", someone to put a good team over the top. If he stayed it would have been gravy. But still, as a fan, it hurt. As far as the Bulls, without Scottie, it probably wouldn't have made sense to bring everyone back. The return in a Pippen trade had to be an all star or better player. For Scottie who was going to be 33 at the time, I'm not sure that type of trade offer would have materialized. Not surprisingly, Pippen's 1999 season was the beginning of his statistical decline. That Bulls team probably did not have much longer before they had to be dismantled anyway, or at least retooled. They probably had one more year in them, but not much more than that. I still think you try to defend a championship, though. It's insulting to the players and fans if management cuts the cord like that. I could understand Jordan being upset. It can hurt but it is important to understand he did his job and nothing about him changed through the season, only fans expectation I think if they really searched hard enough they could did a trade but because Scottie can sign anywhere, I doubt he was willing to do any favors to the Bulls. It all depends, if Bulls would paid him like $10-$15 mill for that one year, he probably would have came back. I think you give it one more year just to see how it goes and defend that title but no doubt I would been retooling for 99-00
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Post by arrogantmodel on May 18, 2020 1:22:41 GMT -5
Here's a big what if. What if the Bulls traded Scottie Pippen for Charles Barkley? Jordan finally plays with his friend. Longley Barkley Kukoc Jordan Harper Bench: Kerr, Wennington, Buchler, Brown, Burrell and a few free agents. Is that enough for #7? If you believe Chuck, he said he never would have joined a team just to win a title. He's gone on about that a lot in recent times with players building their super teams. He wanted competition, he didn't have the, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on May 18, 2020 8:58:07 GMT -5
Damn, is Jasmine seeing anybody or... Bear in mind you might have to meet her father, imagine that dinner...
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Post by cabbageboy on May 18, 2020 9:16:59 GMT -5
But Barkley did join the Rockets with Hakeem and Drexler in order to win a title. They got to the conference Finals and lost to that Stockton shot that was shown in The Last Dance.
I've been thinking about this and for the league in general I think the Bulls breakup was really the end of the NBA's heyday that started in 1979-80 when Magic and Bird entered the league. It's been 22 years and I don't really think the NBA has totally recovered from it. The problem with it in a big way is that no one got a "pass the torch" moment from the Bulls. They won the 6th and then parted ways. In wrestling terms they didn't put over the young star on the way down the card or out of the territory. Even in 1980 the Lakers went through the defending champions Seattle Supersonics. But if you were booking this you had the nucleus of two top teams (Lakers, Celtics), a 3rd that was fighting to get an elusive championship and finally did (Philly), the talented upper midcard act that never quite won the big one (Bucks), and then an up and coming heel that laid waste to the top faces (Pistons). The Pistons went over the top guys in the Celtics and then Lakers, while holding off the rise of the next top babyface (Jordan). So finally we get to the 90s and now said babyface comes of age and finally dominates and vanquishes the heel Pistons and gets a timely job from the icon of the previous decade (Magic) to firmly cement Jordan as The Man. The Blazers actually had the best record in 1991, but it HAD to be Magic vs. Jordan in order for it to truly resonate.
As the 1990s hit the league had far more interesting teams and characters. Let's be honest here. The West in the 80s mostly sucked. By the 90s you had better teams in the West that could all make a run to the Finals: The Drexler/Porter Blazers, Barkley's Suns, Hakeem's Rockets, the Payton/Kemp Sonics, the Robinson Spurs, and finally the Stockton/Malone Jazz. You could put any of those teams against the Bulls in the Finals and it would draw ratings, though we never got Bulls/Rockets or Bulls/Spurs. But there was also the rise of other East teams in the decade: The Knicks became the new top heels, and let's just say the Pacers became that morally ambiguous tweener team that had fans and detractors. Even with Jordan's 1994 retirement you still had Reggie Miller tormenting the Knicks and plenty of action in the West to keep things interesting. You could even argue that epic 7 game series with the Bulls/Pacers had a 4 year build since the Pacers had been in the mix since 1994 but hadn't really faced the Bulls when it mattered. Think about it. Everyone the Bulls faced in the Finals had some kind of epic storyline that led to compelling TV. Lakers/Bulls was obvious. Blazers/Bulls had the Blazers back in the Finals after making it in 1990 and the whole Jordan/Drexler rivalry. In 1993 the Suns finally got over the hump after years of contending in the West, now that Barkley was there and Barkley vs. Jordan was an enormous draw. The Bulls/Sonics series had the Sonics finally in the Finals after chasing the title since 1993 and their various playoff disappointments. Then of course Bulls/Jazz both years had Malone and Stockton chasing that elusive title that they had been after for about a decade. In the East there was also the reliable foils in the Cavs and then the mentally fragile pretenders to the throne Orlando, who beat the Bulls when Jordan wasn't on his game yet but paid dearly the next year. Of course there was also the whole Knicks/Heat crap that started polluting the game by 1997, but it was interesting if nothing else. Even then it produced some sort of fresh match up with Bulls/Heat in 1997 since the Bulls/Knicks was stale. Everyone here had motivations and backstory.
The problem is all of that stopped once the Bulls broke up. Jordan never did the job on his way out, never put over the next stars. I think in the long run this hurt the Duncan Spurs and also the Shaq/Kobe Lakers because they never got to go over Jordan the way Jordan got to go over the Pistons and Lakers. Just imagine if the Bulls had kept it together long enough to do a Finals loss to the Lakers in 2000 and how huge the ratings and hype would have been for that series (though I dunno how Phil Jackson coaches both teams). I think that's kind of the problem the NBA has had in the ABC era. The NBC just did a way, way better job of video packages and conveyed the main players and their motivations to win.
But really what do they have to work with now? If you had to sum up LeBron's character arc if this was a movie or series it would basically be "Great player that couldn't win so he left his team to team up with other major stars so he could finally win, then went back home and finally did win 1 but mostly got crushed by a juggernaut, then finally went to the Lakers to chase more rings." Other than the 2016 title (which was marred by the Green suspension) is there anything inspirational to any of that? Same deal with Kevin Durant. Can't win with OKC, can't win, can't win, so hey sign with the best team on earth to crush everyone! If these guys were fictional characters in a movie the movie would kinda suck. With this Space Jam reboot I half expect Earth to end up as alien slaves while LeBron bemoans not having enough help.
1980s/90s NBA epic hero storytelling would see LeBron finally win the title with the Cavs in 2011 after years of coming up short (maybe they could sign Bosh to augment the team, but not Wade), and then Durant/Westbrook finally get over the hump and beat the Warriors in 2017 and defeat the Cavs, with Durant being cemented as The Man. Even in other cases like Kawhi Leonard it's kinda hard to get invested in a guy that spent the last part of his Spurs career not wanting to be there and supposedly hurt, then won a title as a rent-a-player with the Raptors while doing load management. The NBA needs a better booker, I'm telling you.
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WR91
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Post by WR91 on May 18, 2020 9:25:21 GMT -5
GOAT Jordan forever. What a great documentary.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on May 18, 2020 9:49:11 GMT -5
It’s interesting hearing Michael’s “flu game” talked about at a time when a pandemic has shuttered basketball (along with everything else).
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2020 11:53:26 GMT -5
Wasn't Pippen in the last year of his deal in 1998 though? They couldn't trade him for anyone at all, he just walked to Houston (and then to Portland). Or I guess it was some convoluted sign and trade but either way Pippen wasn't hanging around Chicago. As far as 1999 goes, I mean hell the Knicks were the 8 seed and came out of the East so the Bulls could have done that. I dunno about them against the Spurs with Robinson and Duncan though. That's quite the front court and the Bulls had no real match ups there. We never really got a Bulls/Spurs series in the 90s, which could have been cool. Ditto Bulls/Rockets. Yeah it was a sign and trade. The Bulls were doing him a favor since he got more money that way than he would have had he signed a straight up deal with another team. That was my point earlier that no one was going to give up an all star for Scottie in a trade, especially given his age and injury concerns. Sign and trades are hard enough as it is . Plus at that point Pippen was likely so fed up with being underpaid that he just wanted his one big contract rather than a one year deal to stay with the Bulls.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on May 18, 2020 12:42:48 GMT -5
"...The Bulls began to rebuild."
a rebuild that's arguably continuing to this day.
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Post by BRAINFADE on May 18, 2020 12:43:45 GMT -5
Just finished watching the last episode. I have to say that I thoroughly enjoyed this series. As I said earlier in the thread, I'm from the UK where the NBA is big but not massively covered, so a lot of this stuff was brand new to me. But I'm still of the same opinion as when I was a kid watching the Bulls' last three championship seasons- Michael Jordan is the greatest professional athlete I have ever seen.
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BRV
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Post by BRV on May 18, 2020 12:56:00 GMT -5
I don't begrudge Jerry Krause for breaking up the Chicago Bulls. They were an aging team that was clearly winding down one of the greatest runs in the history of professional sports, but it's not like they were about to continue this run of dominance well into the 2000s, especially with some of the other franchises that were on the rise. At best, they had one more championship run left in them. If Krause is to blame for anything, it's that when he sold players like Scottie Pippen and Steve Kerr, he got absolutely nothing in return and that's what slowed the rebuild. He could have hastened the process if his trades netted any players of note rather than scrubs like Roy Rogers, Chuck Person, and middling draft picks. Here's what I wrote last month on the subject of whether the Bulls could have contended for a championship beyond the 1998 "Last Dance" season: Let's say they stick together after the 1998 Finals and decide to make a run at it into the new millennium. When does it end? How does it end? Who stops it? For my money, I think they probably win it again in 1999. Their aging legs would have benefited from a lockout-shortened season and Phil Jackson would've been savvy enough to rest veterans like Jordan, Pippen, Harper, Kerr, and Kukoc on those back-to-back games that were crammed into the regular season. They probably would've entered the playoffs as something like a 5 or 6 seed but that would have been a misnomer and they would have bullied their way through the Eastern Conference en route to the Finals. But I think the ride comes to a screeching halt in 2000. The Shaq and Kobe Lakers are on the ascension and by that point, Rodman's 38, Jordan's 36, Pippen and Kerr are 34, Kukoc and Longley are 31. If the Bulls even advance past the Pacers in the East, the Lakers topple them in the Finals.
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Post by Mecca on May 18, 2020 13:09:31 GMT -5
But Barkley did join the Rockets with Hakeem and Drexler in order to win a title. They got to the conference Finals and lost to that Stockton shot that was shown in The Last Dance. I've been thinking about this and for the league in general I think the Bulls breakup was really the end of the NBA's heyday that started in 1979-80 when Magic and Bird entered the league. It's been 22 years and I don't really think the NBA has totally recovered from it. The problem with it in a big way is that no one got a "pass the torch" moment from the Bulls. They won the 6th and then parted ways. In wrestling terms they didn't put over the young star on the way down the card or out of the territory. Even in 1980 the Lakers went through the defending champions Seattle Supersonics. But if you were booking this you had the nucleus of two top teams (Lakers, Celtics), a 3rd that was fighting to get an elusive championship and finally did (Philly), the talented upper midcard act that never quite won the big one (Bucks), and then an up and coming heel that laid waste to the top faces (Pistons). The Pistons went over the top guys in the Celtics and then Lakers, while holding off the rise of the next top babyface (Jordan). So finally we get to the 90s and now said babyface comes of age and finally dominates and vanquishes the heel Pistons and gets a timely job from the icon of the previous decade (Magic) to firmly cement Jordan as The Man. The Blazers actually had the best record in 1991, but it HAD to be Magic vs. Jordan in order for it to truly resonate. As the 1990s hit the league had far more interesting teams and characters. Let's be honest here. The West in the 80s mostly sucked. By the 90s you had better teams in the West that could all make a run to the Finals: The Drexler/Porter Blazers, Barkley's Suns, Hakeem's Rockets, the Payton/Kemp Sonics, the Robinson Spurs, and finally the Stockton/Malone Jazz. You could put any of those teams against the Bulls in the Finals and it would draw ratings, though we never got Bulls/Rockets or Bulls/Spurs. But there was also the rise of other East teams in the decade: The Knicks became the new top heels, and let's just say the Pacers became that morally ambiguous tweener team that had fans and detractors. Even with Jordan's 1994 retirement you still had Reggie Miller tormenting the Knicks and plenty of action in the West to keep things interesting. You could even argue that epic 7 game series with the Bulls/Pacers had a 4 year build since the Pacers had been in the mix since 1994 but hadn't really faced the Bulls when it mattered. Think about it. Everyone the Bulls faced in the Finals had some kind of epic storyline that led to compelling TV. Lakers/Bulls was obvious. Blazers/Bulls had the Blazers back in the Finals after making it in 1990 and the whole Jordan/Drexler rivalry. In 1993 the Suns finally got over the hump after years of contending in the West, now that Barkley was there and Barkley vs. Jordan was an enormous draw. The Bulls/Sonics series had the Sonics finally in the Finals after chasing the title since 1993 and their various playoff disappointments. Then of course Bulls/Jazz both years had Malone and Stockton chasing that elusive title that they had been after for about a decade. In the East there was also the reliable foils in the Cavs and then the mentally fragile pretenders to the throne Orlando, who beat the Bulls when Jordan wasn't on his game yet but paid dearly the next year. Of course there was also the whole Knicks/Heat crap that started polluting the game by 1997, but it was interesting if nothing else. Even then it produced some sort of fresh match up with Bulls/Heat in 1997 since the Bulls/Knicks was stale. Everyone here had motivations and backstory. The problem is all of that stopped once the Bulls broke up. Jordan never did the job on his way out, never put over the next stars. I think in the long run this hurt the Duncan Spurs and also the Shaq/Kobe Lakers because they never got to go over Jordan the way Jordan got to go over the Pistons and Lakers. Just imagine if the Bulls had kept it together long enough to do a Finals loss to the Lakers in 2000 and how huge the ratings and hype would have been for that series (though I dunno how Phil Jackson coaches both teams). I think that's kind of the problem the NBA has had in the ABC era. The NBC just did a way, way better job of video packages and conveyed the main players and their motivations to win. But really what do they have to work with now? If you had to sum up LeBron's character arc if this was a movie or series it would basically be "Great player that couldn't win so he left his team to team up with other major stars so he could finally win, then went back home and finally did win 1 but mostly got crushed by a juggernaut, then finally went to the Lakers to chase more rings." Other than the 2016 title (which was marred by the Green suspension) is there anything inspirational to any of that? Same deal with Kevin Durant. Can't win with OKC, can't win, can't win, so hey sign with the best team on earth to crush everyone! If these guys were fictional characters in a movie the movie would kinda suck. With this Space Jam reboot I half expect Earth to end up as alien slaves while LeBron bemoans not having enough help. 1980s/90s NBA epic hero storytelling would see LeBron finally win the title with the Cavs in 2011 after years of coming up short (maybe they could sign Bosh to augment the team, but not Wade), and then Durant/Westbrook finally get over the hump and beat the Warriors in 2017 and defeat the Cavs, with Durant being cemented as The Man. Even in other cases like Kawhi Leonard it's kinda hard to get invested in a guy that spent the last part of his Spurs career not wanting to be there and supposedly hurt, then won a title as a rent-a-player with the Raptors while doing load management. The NBA needs a better booker, I'm telling you. I think you point has a bit of merit as far as not doing the job, but there are a ton of other reasons the NBA hasn't gotten back to that level. 1. No one else is Jordan, replacing him is impossible, dude knew how to market himself, stay clean and be great. In the era of social media it's hard for an athlete to stay squeaky clean. Jordan had the mixture of being a great dude and also being a great player that had substance and flash. You see the stuff now about him being a dick etc, if that were today we'd all know about it within minutes. The 24 hour news cycle mixed the internet and social media has left nothing behind closed doors,good and bad. 2. The teams/players that follows Jordan really struggled to meet the same level. Generally the Spurs were thought of as being boring as hell. Kobe got arrested for rape etc.. 3. Todays NBA is a players league above all else. There is a section of fans that are completely turned off by mega teams and dudes recruiting each other in free agency. Lebrons team hopping has tarnished his legacy to a ton of people. 4. Style of play, I personally have friends that were NBA fans that don't watch it now because "Golden State ruined the NBA' All they do is shoot 3's and miss etc etc All of these things play in to why it's different today. I came across this exchange on twitter if anyone questions the Lebron/team hopping point I made.. I wish we could go back in time and see LeBron play against the Bad Boy Pistons with 1980’s NBA rules just to see what would happen. He wouldn’t. He’d play on the Pistons. And recruit Magic and Olajuwon there too
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 18, 2020 13:49:01 GMT -5
I don't begrudge Jerry Krause for breaking up the Chicago Bulls. They were an aging team that was clearly winding down one of the greatest runs in the history of professional sports, but it's not like they were about to continue this run of dominance well into the 2000s, especially with some of the other franchises that were on the rise. At best, they had one more championship run left in them. If Krause is to blame for anything, it's that when he sold players like Scottie Pippen and Steve Kerr, he got absolutely nothing in return and that's what slowed the rebuild. He could have hastened the process if his trades netted any players of note rather than scrubs like Roy Rogers, Chuck Person, and middling draft picks. Here's what I wrote last month on the subject of whether the Bulls could have contended for a championship beyond the 1998 "Last Dance" season: The sad part is he got the rebuild he wanted and still messed it up Bulls maybe had one more year left to contend but that was it
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 18, 2020 13:54:50 GMT -5
But really what do they have to work with now? If you had to sum up LeBron's character arc if this was a movie or series it would basically be "Great player that couldn't win so he left his team to team up with other major stars so he could finally win, then went back home and finally did win 1 but mostly got crushed by a juggernaut, then finally went to the Lakers to chase more rings." Other than the 2016 title (which was marred by the Green suspension) is there anything inspirational to any of that? Same deal with Kevin Durant. Can't win with OKC, can't win, can't win, so hey sign with the best team on earth to crush everyone! If these guys were fictional characters in a movie the movie would kinda suck. With this Space Jam reboot I half expect Earth to end up as alien slaves while LeBron bemoans not having enough help. 1980s/90s NBA epic hero storytelling would see LeBron finally win the title with the Cavs in 2011 after years of coming up short (maybe they could sign Bosh to augment the team, but not Wade), and then Durant/Westbrook finally get over the hump and beat the Warriors in 2017 and defeat the Cavs, with Durant being cemented as The Man. Even in other cases like Kawhi Leonard it's kinda hard to get invested in a guy that spent the last part of his Spurs career not wanting to be there and supposedly hurt, then won a title as a rent-a-player with the Raptors while doing load management. The NBA needs a better booker, I'm telling you. I think that is a little unfair to LeBron but I won't defend him too much. My biggest thing with LeBron is he had to go to another man to team to learn how to win. Same with Durant. Go to another team and win in general fine, but if I had to describe LeBron in one word it would be "mercenary" Kawhi is not in that category though. Not wanting to be somewhere doesn't hurt your legacy and he showed his worth even more by taking a team to their first ever championship. I hate the "load management" idea that people have followed behind him with (he didn't invent it but after last year it is popular due to him). He's a guy who will turn it off and on and that's what makes Jordan so remarkable that he was a guy who never turned it off when he could
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on May 18, 2020 14:00:56 GMT -5
But Barkley did join the Rockets with Hakeem and Drexler in order to win a title. They got to the conference Finals and lost to that Stockton shot that was shown in The Last Dance. I've been thinking about this and for the league in general I think the Bulls breakup was really the end of the NBA's heyday that started in 1979-80 when Magic and Bird entered the league. It's been 22 years and I don't really think the NBA has totally recovered from it. The problem with it in a big way is that no one got a "pass the torch" moment from the Bulls. They won the 6th and then parted ways. In wrestling terms they didn't put over the young star on the way down the card or out of the territory. Even in 1980 the Lakers went through the defending champions Seattle Supersonics. But if you were booking this you had the nucleus of two top teams (Lakers, Celtics), a 3rd that was fighting to get an elusive championship and finally did (Philly), the talented upper midcard act that never quite won the big one (Bucks), and then an up and coming heel that laid waste to the top faces (Pistons). The Pistons went over the top guys in the Celtics and then Lakers, while holding off the rise of the next top babyface (Jordan). So finally we get to the 90s and now said babyface comes of age and finally dominates and vanquishes the heel Pistons and gets a timely job from the icon of the previous decade (Magic) to firmly cement Jordan as The Man. The Blazers actually had the best record in 1991, but it HAD to be Magic vs. Jordan in order for it to truly resonate. As the 1990s hit the league had far more interesting teams and characters. Let's be honest here. The West in the 80s mostly sucked. By the 90s you had better teams in the West that could all make a run to the Finals: The Drexler/Porter Blazers, Barkley's Suns, Hakeem's Rockets, the Payton/Kemp Sonics, the Robinson Spurs, and finally the Stockton/Malone Jazz. You could put any of those teams against the Bulls in the Finals and it would draw ratings, though we never got Bulls/Rockets or Bulls/Spurs. But there was also the rise of other East teams in the decade: The Knicks became the new top heels, and let's just say the Pacers became that morally ambiguous tweener team that had fans and detractors. Even with Jordan's 1994 retirement you still had Reggie Miller tormenting the Knicks and plenty of action in the West to keep things interesting. You could even argue that epic 7 game series with the Bulls/Pacers had a 4 year build since the Pacers had been in the mix since 1994 but hadn't really faced the Bulls when it mattered. Think about it. Everyone the Bulls faced in the Finals had some kind of epic storyline that led to compelling TV. Lakers/Bulls was obvious. Blazers/Bulls had the Blazers back in the Finals after making it in 1990 and the whole Jordan/Drexler rivalry. In 1993 the Suns finally got over the hump after years of contending in the West, now that Barkley was there and Barkley vs. Jordan was an enormous draw. The Bulls/Sonics series had the Sonics finally in the Finals after chasing the title since 1993 and their various playoff disappointments. Then of course Bulls/Jazz both years had Malone and Stockton chasing that elusive title that they had been after for about a decade. In the East there was also the reliable foils in the Cavs and then the mentally fragile pretenders to the throne Orlando, who beat the Bulls when Jordan wasn't on his game yet but paid dearly the next year. Of course there was also the whole Knicks/Heat crap that started polluting the game by 1997, but it was interesting if nothing else. Even then it produced some sort of fresh match up with Bulls/Heat in 1997 since the Bulls/Knicks was stale. Everyone here had motivations and backstory. The problem is all of that stopped once the Bulls broke up. Jordan never did the job on his way out, never put over the next stars. I think in the long run this hurt the Duncan Spurs and also the Shaq/Kobe Lakers because they never got to go over Jordan the way Jordan got to go over the Pistons and Lakers. Just imagine if the Bulls had kept it together long enough to do a Finals loss to the Lakers in 2000 and how huge the ratings and hype would have been for that series (though I dunno how Phil Jackson coaches both teams). I think that's kind of the problem the NBA has had in the ABC era. The NBC just did a way, way better job of video packages and conveyed the main players and their motivations to win. But really what do they have to work with now? If you had to sum up LeBron's character arc if this was a movie or series it would basically be "Great player that couldn't win so he left his team to team up with other major stars so he could finally win, then went back home and finally did win 1 but mostly got crushed by a juggernaut, then finally went to the Lakers to chase more rings." Other than the 2016 title (which was marred by the Green suspension) is there anything inspirational to any of that? Same deal with Kevin Durant. Can't win with OKC, can't win, can't win, so hey sign with the best team on earth to crush everyone! If these guys were fictional characters in a movie the movie would kinda suck. With this Space Jam reboot I half expect Earth to end up as alien slaves while LeBron bemoans not having enough help. 1980s/90s NBA epic hero storytelling would see LeBron finally win the title with the Cavs in 2011 after years of coming up short (maybe they could sign Bosh to augment the team, but not Wade), and then Durant/Westbrook finally get over the hump and beat the Warriors in 2017 and defeat the Cavs, with Durant being cemented as The Man. Even in other cases like Kawhi Leonard it's kinda hard to get invested in a guy that spent the last part of his Spurs career not wanting to be there and supposedly hurt, then won a title as a rent-a-player with the Raptors while doing load management. The NBA needs a better booker, I'm telling you. I think you point has a bit of merit as far as not doing the job, but there are a ton of other reasons the NBA hasn't gotten back to that level. 1. No one else is Jordan, replacing him is impossible, dude knew how to market himself, stay clean and be great. In the era of social media it's hard for an athlete to stay squeaky clean. Jordan had the mixture of being a great dude and also being a great player that had substance and flash. You see the stuff now about him being a dick etc, if that were today we'd all know about it within minutes. The 24 hour news cycle mixed the internet and social media has left nothing behind closed doors,good and bad. 2. The teams/players that follows Jordan really struggled to meet the same level. Generally the Spurs were thought of as being boring as hell. Kobe got arrested for rape etc.. 3. Todays NBA is a players league above all else. There is a section of fans that are completely turned off by mega teams and dudes recruiting each other in free agency. Lebrons team hopping has tarnished his legacy to a ton of people. 4. Style of play, I personally have friends that were NBA fans that don't watch it now because "Golden State ruined the NBA' All they do is shoot 3's and miss etc etc All of these things play in to why it's different today. I came across this exchange on twitter if anyone questions the Lebron/team hopping point I made.. I wish we could go back in time and see LeBron play against the Bad Boy Pistons with 1980’s NBA rules just to see what would happen. He wouldn’t. He’d play on the Pistons. And recruit Magic and Olajuwon there too Once again I will cut LeBron slack I think he is mentally weak or was mentally weak up until his 2nd run with the Cavs but if you made him get aggressive, he would. Take him out the current day mindset where he can flop and all that and put him in the era where you had to get your shit and he does better then people think LeBron doesn't have loyalty to a team so I can see like those early years where Jordan is getting beat by Boston and Det and learning how to win, LeBron might be ready to skate but no superstars really moved from team to team and if you did, he wouldn't find anyone as willing as Wade to say this is your team now. Look at Adrian Dantley, who is one of the greatest scorers of all time but they took that man out of Det because he didn't fit
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