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Post by thegame415 on Jun 6, 2021 17:03:01 GMT -5
Not totally. There needs to be a hybrid of indie and wwe developed talent.
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Bad Moon
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Post by Bad Moon on Jun 6, 2021 17:11:49 GMT -5
Drew and Lashley may be products of the clone factory, but WWE had written both of them off as failures before. It wasn't until they went away and became successes in TNA and on the indies that they brought them back in and pushed them and they were right to do so too because they had both gotten really good once they were out of the WWE umbrella and had to get themselves over on their own. Secretly even WWE knows that they're not equipped to create their own stars because they stifle their talent too much. They're never gonna admit it, but they know. That's the whole reason for the mass indie recruitment drive, do you honestly think that they would seriously hire a Kyle O'reily or a Rodrick Strong or a slew of Japanese names they can't even pronounce right if they weren't desperate to find anything that works?
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Jun 6, 2021 17:23:01 GMT -5
They're just not capable of making stars or getting fans invested in new talent anymore. The established fanbase for guys like Punk and Bryan shouldn't have mattered, in that it was such a small niche out of WWE's audience, but it did matter because connecting with even a small portion of their viewers was more than guys who'd been brought up primarily through WWE's apathy-inducing rote booking could manage.
For years, smarks said the problem was the talent themselves, and WWE hiring a bunch of jacked-up putzes instead of the talented indie guys. Now they've filled the roster with talented indie guys, and it doesn't actually make a difference because the overall presentation is just as dire.
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Post by eJm on Jun 6, 2021 17:35:47 GMT -5
Yeah, the sentiment others are saying about it being a management/coaching thing rather than a talent thing is pretty much something I can't agree with any more than I do.
Like, the fact they went ahead to built a whole development centre, got a team together with the purpose of building the exact people they want to fit and they basically set these people for failure repeatedly just feels like an insane waste of money that I really don't get the logic of. Especially when you've basically made a system that gives you all the best odds for success. It just feels super bizarre to me. If management has a problem with the talent coming out, they could easily make the changes they need to but they just...don't.
Hell, one of the people who got released this week was the most homegrown WWE talent the company could have asked for who showed up on NXT TV exactly zero times and they still messed him up.
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nisidhe
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Post by nisidhe on Jun 6, 2021 20:33:14 GMT -5
The indie era was not only not a failure on paper, it was actually a Hail Mary pass that was essential to WWE's long-term survival and continued dominance.
It was either that, or WWE would have been roster-starved by 2015, I think. Once the shop talk throughout the IWC spread in earnest about how many wrestlers could make a decent living from the work without having to jump through WWE's hoops, somebody higher up clearly got the memo. Colt Cabana and Zack Ryder proved that one could have more control over one's revenue streams and marketability than WWE would allow (and that has borne out to the nth degree), and that an ambition promotion able to get the shells together to book someone like that was going to fill seats and their cash box faster _and_ build up business on the promise of getting them regularly. Get enough of those folks signed to your wrestling shows regularly, you're a promoter making money and growing into something WWE hates - a competitor.
So, they had a dilemma on their hands - sign these vanilla midgets and spot monkeys and luchadors and weird anime goofs and figure out later what to do with them, or keep watching until they're showing up on TV every week for another promotion who's also getting decent work out of WWE's castoffs and who's just signed a deal to go weekly on basic cable.
They really didn't have much of a choice.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jun 7, 2021 3:34:30 GMT -5
The Homegrown era turned out a stream of guys with a uniform look, who could work one style of match and one character, they were often called up far too early and would hurt undercard talent as a result. They'd struggle to adapt to new characters assigned to them with a week's notice, not get over as they have no experience actually having to play to a crowd then got chewed up and spat out with most choosing to leave wrestling rather than working indies get better like Lashley and Drew.
The problem with the WWE is Vince, few can flourish in this environment. The show is being booked for him, by him, with the enjoyment of the audience never a consideration. Indie, homegrown, it doesn't matter, they all look the same to fans at home when they're sat in catering week after week.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jun 7, 2021 5:34:20 GMT -5
I think more accurately, WWE has been a mistake. I don’t get what this means. Are you saying they made an error in changing their name, because of the whole World Wildlife kerfuffle? Or they made a mistake in even bothering to establish the company back in the 1960s?
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Post by Fake Jesus on Jun 7, 2021 5:39:54 GMT -5
I think more accurately, WWE has been a mistake. I don’t get what this means. Are you saying they made an error in changing their name, because of the whole World Wildlife kerfuffle? Or they made a mistake in even bothering to establish the company back in the 1960s? Jess McMahon shoulda stayed in Ireland, by god.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jun 7, 2021 8:05:56 GMT -5
Agreed with those saying the issue is that management clearly has no idea what to do with just about any wrestlers, regardless if they were from the "clone factory" or came off the indies/international scene, but if there's any "mistake" involved it's less for WWE than it is that WWE's hiring practices have created some real harm in certain areas of said indie/international wrestling scene, particularly in the UK.
It's obviously great for the individual talents who can get a full-time WWE contract and bring that money in, no shade on them for getting paid, but WWE snatching up just about any wrestler generating any buzz whatsoever had, and in some cases still has, some major potentially negative implications for wrestling as a whole.
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Totorob101
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Post by Totorob101 on Jun 7, 2021 8:39:26 GMT -5
I think the company should just go back to basics,just the two main shows and one ppv a month,cut NXT and bring up the best of the current talent there and actually use them and book them properly,and enough hoovering talent up from the indies.
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Wieners=$$$
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Post by Wieners=$$$ on Jun 7, 2021 9:59:53 GMT -5
Agreed with those saying the issue is that management clearly has no idea what to do with just about any wrestlers, regardless if they were from the "clone factory" or came off the indies/international scene, but if there's any "mistake" involved it's less for WWE than it is that WWE's hiring practices have created some real harm in certain areas of said indie/international wrestling scene, particularly in the UK. It's obviously great for the individual talents who can get a full-time WWE contract and bring that money in, no shade on them for getting paid, but WWE snatching up just about any wrestler generating any buzz whatsoever had, and in some cases still has, some major potentially negative implications for wrestling as a whole. I agree. I believe NXT was a project to appease Vince's lack of success with their developmental system. The success Bryan and Punk had shed light on how valuable the indy scene could be for the WWE. NXT was developed as a mock-developmental system to give Vince a closer/easier look at talent coming from other avenues. When you have the resources to create what many have called "super-indies," you don't have to put resources into scouting talent. All you have to do is put together a TV show for Vince to watch, and he can decide which wrestlers he thinks he can use. Talent like Cole and Ciampa and Gargano have no value to Vince, except to help perpetuate the NXT show and build the new talent coming in for Vince to view. At it's core, NXT is a way for WWE to make money off of talent-scouting.
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mc74
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Post by mc74 on Jun 7, 2021 10:08:35 GMT -5
The talent is not where the problem lies. The real issue is the booking and the egregious mishandling of talent on the main roster.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jun 7, 2021 10:24:06 GMT -5
I think more accurately, WWE has been a mistake. I don’t get what this means. Are you saying they made an error in changing their name, because of the whole World Wildlife kerfuffle? Or they made a mistake in even bothering to establish the company back in the 1960s? Not griping about the name, but instead calling the company itself a mistake like a petulant sibling mocking a kitchen injury.
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Post by Viking Hall on Jun 7, 2021 10:43:01 GMT -5
I'm not a huge CM Punk guy by any stretch, but he hit the nail on the head the other day when he made the comparison between the WWE and the movie business. It doesn't matter what the budget of the film is or who's starring in it if the people behind the scenes are incompetent, and the same goes for the WWE.
The fact that they've had a product that's been even watchable at times is a testament to the sheer amount of raw talent that they've had at their disposal, however the fact that it's only approached being watchable at times when they have that sheer amount of talent is also an indictment of those behind the scenes. I'm sure some people would argue that those running things can only work with the tools they've got, but the counter point to that is look at how many people who leave the shackles of the WWE shine as soon as they're released again. It's no coincidence.
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Bo Rida
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Post by Bo Rida on Jun 7, 2021 11:01:57 GMT -5
Agreed with those saying the issue is that management clearly has no idea what to do with just about any wrestlers, regardless if they were from the "clone factory" or came off the indies/international scene, but if there's any "mistake" involved it's less for WWE than it is that WWE's hiring practices have created some real harm in certain areas of said indie/international wrestling scene, particularly in the UK. It's obviously great for the individual talents who can get a full-time WWE contract and bring that money in, no shade on them for getting paid, but WWE snatching up just about any wrestler generating any buzz whatsoever had, and in some cases still has, some major potentially negative implications for wrestling as a whole. I agree. I believe NXT was a project to appease Vince's lack of success with their developmental system. The success Bryan and Punk had shed light on how valuable the indy scene could be for the WWE. NXT was developed as a mock-developmental system to give Vince a closer/easier look at talent coming from other avenues. When you have the resources to create what many have called "super-indies," you don't have to put resources into scouting talent. All you have to do is put together a TV show for Vince to watch, and he can decide which wrestlers he thinks he can use. Talent like Cole and Ciampa and Gargano have no value to Vince, except to help perpetuate the NXT show and build the new talent coming in for Vince to view. At it's core, NXT is a way for WWE to make money off of talent-scouting. Regardless of the original intention I've long seen NXT as a smark retention programme. How many more would have drifted away from the main product without takeovers or an existing investment in those called up. It also helped elevate women's wrestling and they've provided a large percentage of the highlights of recent years.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 11:16:27 GMT -5
Indie Era > Boy Band Wrestlers Era
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Wieners=$$$
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Post by Wieners=$$$ on Jun 7, 2021 11:20:24 GMT -5
I agree. I believe NXT was a project to appease Vince's lack of success with their developmental system. The success Bryan and Punk had shed light on how valuable the indy scene could be for the WWE. NXT was developed as a mock-developmental system to give Vince a closer/easier look at talent coming from other avenues. When you have the resources to create what many have called "super-indies," you don't have to put resources into scouting talent. All you have to do is put together a TV show for Vince to watch, and he can decide which wrestlers he thinks he can use. Talent like Cole and Ciampa and Gargano have no value to Vince, except to help perpetuate the NXT show and build the new talent coming in for Vince to view. At it's core, NXT is a way for WWE to make money off of talent-scouting. Regardless of the original intention I've long seen NXT as a smark retention programme. How many more would have drifted away from the main product without takeovers or an existing investment in those called up. It also helped elevate women's wrestling and they've provided a large percentage of the highlights of recent years. This is a fair point. I was done with WWE programming for most of the 00's. I went to other avenues for my pro-wrestling, like ROH. When Punk and Bryan became successful within WWE, I took notice, but was still very resistant. It really wasn't until NXT began shifting to a "super-indie" that I began watching their programming again. I was hopeful with the successes of Bryan and The Shield, that this was truly going to be a different era in how talent was not only brought up, but also how they would enter WWE "proper," so to speak. Less than a decade into it, and I have once again departed from the programming, for various reasons mind you. One reason, is the treatment of talent being called up from NXT to the "main-rosters," whatever that means in WWE anymore. Misuse of talent is too frustrating for me to watch, especially when I witnessed their potential in not only other companies, but within the WWE system itself.
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Post by Hypnosis on Jun 7, 2021 11:36:22 GMT -5
Indie Era > Boy Band Wrestlers Era "Quit playin' games with my heart, baby girl."
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Wieners=$$$
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Post by Wieners=$$$ on Jun 7, 2021 12:11:21 GMT -5
Indie Era > Boy Band Wrestlers Era "Quit playin' games with my heart, baby girl." Man, I loved that one track. What was it called? "Wank Fist?" "Leakee the Memories Alone, Baby?"
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Super Duper Dragunov
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Post by Super Duper Dragunov on Jun 7, 2021 20:38:38 GMT -5
To put it simply (and echo many of the other posts) If you have Ricochet, f***ing RICOCHET, on your roster (a dude as I've said in the past has proven he can help CARRY AN ENTIRE COMPANY) and he's relegated to doing shit on Main Event then no it's not the indie era that's the mistake.
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