thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
Posts: 7,660
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Post by thecrusherwi on Jul 8, 2021 11:06:45 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels vs Kurt Angle at WrestleMania 21. Kurt spends so much time beating on Shawn’s back and it leads to nothing. Then it’s a finisher exchange until Shawn taps after being in the Ankle Lock for like five minutes. Just doesn’t do it for me.
Streak Era Undertaker, Post-comeback Shawn Michaels, and Kurt Angle after 2004 or so have many matches that fit into this category. They are more to blame than anyone for the lazy finisher spamming big match style that has taken over wrestling. They undoubtedly have some great matches in those years (I like the Michaels/Taker WM 25 match a lot), but they largely popularized that formula and it’s taken on a life of its own.
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agent817
Fry's dog Seymour
Doesn't Know Whose Ring It Is
Posts: 21,303
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Post by agent817 on Jul 8, 2021 13:57:58 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels vs Bret Hart at Wrestlemania 12. Snoozefest. The first time I watched it was when I rented it from Blockbuster back in 1999. After watching it a few more times, it's basically the final 1/3 of the match that it starts picking up.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2021 14:11:14 GMT -5
Taker vs Shawn at WM26. It felt like it was "forced" to be a good match if that makes sense. Their match at WM25 was a lot more natural but I have to say, I did like the story of WM26 where HBK was desperate to face him again. Also... controversial but Steamboat vs Savage. It's a good match, don't get me wrong... but "Best match EVER"? Come on. You see matches on Raw and Smackdown that get forgotten about weeks later that are just as good as that match. Maybe I'm missing something. Steamboat's matches with Flair and even his Backlash match with Jericho was better in my eyes. As for Savage... his WM7 match against Warrior was his best for me. I think Steamboat/Savage is so highly regarded because when it happened it was probably the greatest WWF match in history up to that point (even Tiger Mask vs Dynamite Kid in MSG wasn't an epic like their Japanese matches).
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Jul 8, 2021 14:16:14 GMT -5
I find a lot of highly acclaimed ladder matches these days to be overhyped. I'm not inherently against giant spots. I just feel there's usually very little music between the notes. It doesn't feel like a frenzy where every guy is trying to win. It feels very forced and rehearsed.
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thirteen3
Dennis Stamp
posted with a broken freakin neck keyboard
Posts: 3,811
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Post by thirteen3 on Jul 8, 2021 15:47:39 GMT -5
PCO vs WALTER.
Really slow paced and sloppy as well.
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Jul 8, 2021 15:58:39 GMT -5
The Bret versus Owen cage match from Summerslam 94. Super long and boring match which is mainly all just them stopping each from getting out of the cage. It's probably the biggest example of why the win by escaping the cage rule sucks for cage matches.
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Post by Psicofreak667 on Jul 8, 2021 16:07:11 GMT -5
Eddie Guerrero vs Brock Lesnar. I know it's legendary for Eddie winning, but literally seven minutes of the match were Lesnar using a grounded bearhug as a resthold. No match with a 7 minute resthold is a good match.
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Post by Gravedigger's Biscuits on Jul 8, 2021 16:07:19 GMT -5
AJ Styles vs John Cena from Royal Rumble 2017.
Admittedly I haven't watched it back since it happened but at the time I felt it was just another finisher-spam match, which personally I'm kinda tired of.
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Post by Jaws the Shark on Jul 8, 2021 16:13:14 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels vs Bret Hart at Wrestlemania 12. Snoozefest. The first time I watched it was when I rented it from Blockbuster back in 1999. After watching it a few more times, it's basically the final 1/3 of the match that it starts picking up. Right, I see what they were trying to do with the hour-long match but really it could've been done in half the time.
There's a ten-man Michinoku Pro match from 1996 that's held in very high esteem, has a great rating on Cagematch and five stars from the WON, and I love Michinoku Pro but I also think it's slightly overrated. Like most of the lucharesu multi-man tag matches it's a total spotfest, which is fine, except it lasts half an hour so it's half an hour of absolutely non-stop breakneck action and by the end I was just wanting it to end. So yeah, great match, but just a little bit too much and they could've had a match as good or better in five or ten fewer minutes.
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Post by David-Arquette was in WCW 2000 on Jul 9, 2021 7:26:55 GMT -5
Taker vs. Mankind Hell in a Cell. It was a two-spot match, with Mick on a stretcher for a good portion of it. Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Jericho at Wrestlemania XIX. The first half was a lot of stalling and resting, and it kicked into gear at the end. Came in to mention Jericho vs Michaels. Their feud years later was great, especially the ladder match, but I thought this match was so mundane.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 9, 2021 7:39:21 GMT -5
Typically, I try not to call a match "overrated" if fans had a genuinely positive response to it; there are a million different ways to make wrestling work for an audience, and sometimes the methods one match uses might not appeal to me so much, but might hold plenty of appeal to others. (Ryan Hollinger voice) However...AJ Styles vs John Cena from Royal Rumble 2017. Admittedly I haven't watched it back since it happened but at the time I felt it was just another finisher-spam match, which personally I'm kinda tired of. I kind of have to agree with this, and the larger "late stage Cena" phase. Don't get me wrong, John Cena absolutely knows what he's doing in a wrestling ring. I never found him overly entertaining, and I've felt that too much drama from his matches came from a meta place of "Oh my God, will they ever book this guy to lose?" rather than a more organic story-driven motivation, but the guy is a pro and the whole "you can't wrestle" thing early on in this run at the top was never fair. But Cena's later run, like his US title challenge stuff and the feud with Styles, had something to it that has always annoyed me going back to my days as a big ROH fan in the early 2000s: it did a ton of the stuff some people were always ragging early ROH or more current NJPW for. Like, it got tiring to read people on different sites say that those promotions were just putting on "spotfests" or "kickout spam", which really wasn't/isn't nearly as true as those folks want it to be, but then praise Cena's run during this time because "he hit a Code Red!" or whatever. Those matches were very much built on "You hit a spot, pin me, I kick out; now I hit a spot, pin you, then you kick out. Keep doing that over and over and over", which sadly also kind of became the default "WWE main event style" after awhile. When the talk before Rumble 2017 was that WWE wanted Cena/Styles to be their answer to Okada/Omega I couldn't help but feel like WWE had completely missed the point of what made the latter match work, and hearing some hail the former as this great accomplishment while downplaying the Wrestle Kingdom match blew my mind. Mind, I reiterate, this really isn't Cena's fault: this is more me getting annoyed at what felt like a double standard among a subsection of fans, so it's possible I was already watching the match as it happened with an inkling of that feeling in mind.
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petef3
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,783
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Post by petef3 on Jul 9, 2021 13:16:45 GMT -5
How can Shawn-Bret at WM12 be "overrated" at this point? Who's rating it highly at all?
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Post by corndog on Jul 9, 2021 16:55:57 GMT -5
Add me to Steamboat/Savage. I'm a big fan of both guys, but this match has never done it for me. Steamboat is supposed to be fired up and looking for revenge from the throat injury and we got a million 2 counts instead. I absolutely love Savage/Steamboat at WM3, but you have a really good point. The match doesn't fit the story, it should be more like Jake/Steamboat from the Big Event, a more brutal brawl which both Savage and Steamboat are perfectly capable of doing. Also add me to the list on Shawn/Bret at WM12 being overrated. When they talk about the match everyone in WWE acts like it is the greatest thing ever, but both have had much better matches and I would rather see a Flair/Steamboat broadway any day of the week, where the pace is much higher and more intense. I also think knowing this match would go an hour, really hurts it.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jul 9, 2021 17:13:30 GMT -5
Typically, I try not to call a match "overrated" if fans had a genuinely positive response to it; there are a million different ways to make wrestling work for an audience, and sometimes the methods one match uses might not appeal to me so much, but might hold plenty of appeal to others. (Ryan Hollinger voice) However...AJ Styles vs John Cena from Royal Rumble 2017. Admittedly I haven't watched it back since it happened but at the time I felt it was just another finisher-spam match, which personally I'm kinda tired of. I kind of have to agree with this, and the larger "late stage Cena" phase. Don't get me wrong, John Cena absolutely knows what he's doing in a wrestling ring. I never found him overly entertaining, and I've felt that too much drama from his matches came from a meta place of "Oh my God, will they ever book this guy to lose?" rather than a more organic story-driven motivation, but the guy is a pro and the whole "you can't wrestle" thing early on in this run at the top was never fair. But Cena's later run, like his US title challenge stuff and the feud with Styles, had something to it that has always annoyed me going back to my days as a big ROH fan in the early 2000s: it did a ton of the stuff some people were always ragging early ROH or more current NJPW for. Like, it got tiring to read people on different sites say that those promotions were just putting on "spotfests" or "kickout spam", which really wasn't/isn't nearly as true as those folks want it to be, but then praise Cena's run during this time because "he hit a Code Red!" or whatever. Those matches were very much built on "You hit a spot, pin me, I kick out; now I hit a spot, pin you, then you kick out. Keep doing that over and over and over", which sadly also kind of became the default "WWE main event style" after awhile. When the talk before Rumble 2017 was that WWE wanted Cena/Styles to be their answer to Okada/Omega I couldn't help but feel like WWE had completely missed the point of what made the latter match work, and hearing some hail the former as this great accomplishment while downplaying the Wrestle Kingdom match blew my mind. Mind, I reiterate, this really isn't Cena's fault: this is more me getting annoyed at what felt like a double standard among a subsection of fans, so it's possible I was already watching the match as it happened with an inkling of that feeling in mind. I’ve never noticed anything “inorganic” about the way Cena’s matches are formatted. They’re based around the big heroic WWE comeback, but I think he’s always been incredibly versatile and he knows how to work with a wide variety of opponents. A couple of the Cena/Styles matches were spotty, but their Summerslam match is a fun highlight with me because it came off like they were desperately unloading everything they had on each other. That and much of the drama in his best matches had little to do with any meta bullshit. Cena in the WWE canon has always been depicted as a super strong fighter who can withstand a ton of punishment. I don’t see his basic dynamic being too different from what I’ve seen in some NJPW workers like Goto, or Tanahashi in some cases (John definitely shares the latter’s theatrical flair). I think Cena at his workrate peak could have had a nice Japan run. Then again, I don’t think the “kick out match” is inherently bad, some can be absolute classics just in the same way a mat based counter fest is.
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Post by jason1980s on Jul 9, 2021 17:47:44 GMT -5
PCO vs WALTER. Really slow paced and sloppy as well. How Pierre made it to some kind of cult status I'll never know. He meant nothing to WWF as Quebeccer Pierre, Jean Pierre Lafiette, Quebeccer Pierre when he returned in 1998 and in WCW as the AFC Pierre. He improved that much in 20 years? I get nostalgia but literally did any fan ever cheer him from 1993-1998?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2021 18:18:44 GMT -5
I've said Bret vs. Owen at SummerSlam 1994 so many times. TL;DR, it was "escape only", so all they did was constantly run away.
Triple H vs. Undertaker at WrestleMania XXVII never really got to me. "Oh... he did a spinebuster through that thing!"
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2021 18:19:59 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels vs Bret Hart at Wrestlemania 12. Snoozefest. WWE acts like this is one of the greatest matches in the history of wrestling. ... the damn thing caused people to walk out of the arena halfway through the match! It stunk!
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Post by Instant Classic on Jul 9, 2021 18:20:33 GMT -5
Bucks vs Hangman and Omega was good, but best tag match ever I think not.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 9, 2021 18:29:20 GMT -5
PCO vs WALTER. Really slow paced and sloppy as well. How Pierre made it to some kind of cult status I'll never know. He meant nothing to WWF as Quebeccer Pierre, Jean Pierre Lafiette, Quebeccer Pierre when he returned in 1998 and in WCW as the AFC Pierre. He improved that much in 20 years? I get nostalgia but literally did any fan ever cheer him from 1993-1998? ...Have you watched him over the last few years?
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Post by saneiac on Jul 9, 2021 18:52:26 GMT -5
Also... controversial but Steamboat vs Savage. It's a good match, don't get me wrong... but "Best match EVER"? Come on. You see matches on Raw and Smackdown that get forgotten about weeks later that are just as good as that match. Maybe I'm missing something. Steamboat's matches with Flair and even his Backlash match with Jericho was better in my eyes. As for Savage... his WM7 match against Warrior was his best for me. And I'm the complete opposite. Savage vs Steamboat was the match that made me a wrestling fan. I can certainly see why modern fans wouldn't consider it so great, since the things they did are now commonplace, but at the time it blew my mind. That will always be my answer for best match ever. On the other hand, the much lauded Steamboat vs Flair trilogy? I've forced myself to watch all of them. In 10 minute chunks, over a period of weeks. So many chops. So much stalling. So dull.
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