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Post by eJm on Feb 28, 2022 10:21:43 GMT -5
The King of Scoop Style disagrees.
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Post by polarbearpete on Feb 28, 2022 10:36:16 GMT -5
The King of Scoop Style disagrees. Wonder if that means she’s not cleared yet to return, or if they actually do have Mania plans for her.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Feb 28, 2022 10:52:49 GMT -5
I mean, does it make sense to rush Asuka back just to have her in a pointless match at WrestleMania? She's not fighting for either title, so maybe better off just waiting after to incorporate her so it makes more sense. She can feud with Bianca or Ronda. The had Booker and Edge fight over shampoo when the show was 3 hours and one night. If she is ready and they can't come up with something for her on a 2 night, 8-10 hour show, with them claiming their women's division matters, they have nothing between the ears. Plus a huge WM return and win is a better jump to a title fued than her dancing to the ring while Corey or Byron scream about her making a statement on Raw the next night.
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asuka007
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Post by asuka007 on Feb 28, 2022 10:56:11 GMT -5
I would LOVE it if WWE would make some cool matches for the women not involving the belt. Just two talented women, facing off.
They can do it with the men every year (we might be getting Edge vs. AJ this year, which would be another one). It’s what I was hoping Sasha and Rhea would do as well.
But if you are not going for the top women’s belts, you’re either:
In a battle Royale that is meaningless.
In a tag title match for belts WWE cares nothing about.
It’s very disappointing.
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Post by eJm on Feb 28, 2022 10:57:47 GMT -5
I mean, does it make sense to rush Asuka back just to have her in a pointless match at WrestleMania? She's not fighting for either title, so maybe better off just waiting after to incorporate her so it makes more sense. She can feud with Bianca or Ronda. The had Booker and Edge fight over shampoo when the show was 3 hours and one night. If she is ready and they can't come up with something for her on a 2 night, 8-10 hour show, with them claiming their women's division matters, they have nothing between the ears. Plus a huge WM return and win is a better jump to a title fued than her dancing to the ring while Corey or Byron scream about her making a statement on Raw the next night. ...that's a fair point, actually. Like, if you're going to have both women's title matches on Night 1 (for some reason), you might as well have some kind of big contenders match for Night two or something. Asuka/Bayley/Sasha/Ripley for a future contender for their brand's title or something.
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Post by mistery on Feb 28, 2022 10:57:54 GMT -5
I mean, does it make sense to rush Asuka back just to have her in a pointless match at WrestleMania? She's not fighting for either title, so maybe better off just waiting after to incorporate her so it makes more sense. She can feud with Bianca or Ronda. The had Booker and Edge fight over shampoo when the show was 3 hours and one night. If she is ready and they can't come up with something for her on a 2 night, 8-10 hour show, with them claiming their women's division matters, they have nothing between the ears. Plus a huge WM return and win is a better jump to a title fued than her dancing to the ring while Corey or Byron scream about her making a statement on Raw the next night. Yup. God forbid someone like Asuka get a major match and win at Wrestlemania. Instead we get Paul/Miz vs The Mysterios, Knoxville/Zayn, and probably Vince/McAfee. WWE constantly has no idea on what to do with her and they actively refuse to make her the centerpiece of the women's division and she is a sidecharacter instead. Instead they are opting to bring in women like Ronda who legitimately hate the fans, and is a poor worker. I would even add in Ronda isn't a draw at all anymore either.
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Post by HMARK Center on Feb 28, 2022 11:47:34 GMT -5
The big thing that WWE doesn't invest time in is getting people to pay attention to who's on what "tier" on their roster; a lot of puro booking, for example, really heavily revolves around a hierarchy where you say, for example in NJPW, that Okada is S tier, someone like Tanahashi is A tier, someone like Tomohiro Ishii is B tier, etc. It's obviously not that cut and dry, like I don't think Gedo has a whiteboard where he puts all the wrestlers' names into specific columns to rank them, but let's describe it this way for simplicity's sake. This all means that the majority of the time that someone from one tier faces someone from a lower tier, you'd expect the higher ranked person to win. That doesn't mean they always win, of course: tournaments like New Japan Cup, Best of Super Juniors, and the G1 are big opportunities to have upsets and surprises (e.g. this past fall seeing Tama Tonga pinning Okada during G1). But what this does is set expectations: you get a feeling for who the main eventers are, who the midcarders are, if there's a particular wrestler who seems to have another's number, and, very importantly, if there are lower ranked wrestlers who seem like they might be on the rise for whatever reason. This allows for a booking style that encourages fans to follow someone's story and development; NJPW didn't just suddenly drop YOSHI-HASHI on top of the tag division at Wrestle Kingdom this past January, they instead used the entire previous year to give him his first taste of gold (the 6-man belts), play up that he had to overcome the perception that he was relying on Goto and Ishii to prop him up, and then by January he was a legitimate player in the tag division that people were willing to take as a serious threat to the champs. What they didn't do with him is just suddenly start giving him a push one week and then drop him into a title match the next. They kept the focus on his growth, his rising confidence, and eventually on him being seen as more legit than he's been during his entire run up to that point, and used that to tell a story that a lot of fans wanted to follow. That way he was able to lose singles matches during the G1, for example, without it feeling like he was being derailed; he still fought hard, he still came close in a number of big matches, and he could carry that into the Tag League the next month and use that as a launching point; you never got the feeling "Oh, he didn't get a lot of points in G1, his push must be over", because you knew the narrative was still unfolding, which was that we were watching YOSHI-HASHI grow from a C/D tier guy who ate pins for his team in bigger matches to being more on that B-tier where him being a co-holder of the IWGP heavyweight tag straps feels earned. I understand what you mean, but it's not the kind of thing you can transfer 1:1 to WWE, just because the structure of their schedules are so different to each other. Would New Japan be booking differently if they had a set-in-stone weekly TV show or two to do? Would WWE be booking differently if they had the more ad hoc schedule based around recurring events? I guess what it comes down to for me is... WWE somehow has to change the fan's current expectations that none of anything will actually lead to anything, so why bother getting behind a talent unless they're blatantly just winning every single match without struggle, after all that's the only way we know that the office is behind them? How does THAT happen? Until WWE can get back to a place with their programming where their fans approach a show from AT LEAST a neutral standpoint and without any sort of fear, dread or cynicism that careers will literally live or die depending on who gets counted for three seconds on the mat, we will be having these conversations over and over again. Honestly, I think AEW is making it work right now; people spent a lot of the first year and a half or so of the promotion knowing that, for example, Jungle Boy wasn't on the same tier as Kenny Omega, but over that time it was clear that they were gradually building up who Jungle Boy could beat, who he'd be competitive against, and eventually started giving him spots where it no longer felt strange for him to beat someone who might've been considered above him during the first year of the promotion. It just takes some care and planning, really. Live TV demands can definitely make things more complicated, for sure, but it can also sometimes help with storytelling since you can more easily chart out when specific events are going to happen.
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Post by eJm on Feb 28, 2022 11:50:56 GMT -5
I understand what you mean, but it's not the kind of thing you can transfer 1:1 to WWE, just because the structure of their schedules are so different to each other. Would New Japan be booking differently if they had a set-in-stone weekly TV show or two to do? Would WWE be booking differently if they had the more ad hoc schedule based around recurring events? I guess what it comes down to for me is... WWE somehow has to change the fan's current expectations that none of anything will actually lead to anything, so why bother getting behind a talent unless they're blatantly just winning every single match without struggle, after all that's the only way we know that the office is behind them? How does THAT happen? Until WWE can get back to a place with their programming where their fans approach a show from AT LEAST a neutral standpoint and without any sort of fear, dread or cynicism that careers will literally live or die depending on who gets counted for three seconds on the mat, we will be having these conversations over and over again. Honestly, I think AEW is making it work right now; people spent a lot of the first year and a half or so of the promotion knowing that, for example, Jungle Boy wasn't on the same tier as Kenny Omega, but over that time it was clear that they were gradually building up who Jungle Boy could beat, who he'd be competitive against, and eventually started giving him spots where it no longer felt strange for him to beat someone who might've been considered above him during the first year of the promotion. It just takes some care and planning, really. Live TV demands can definitely make things more complicated, for sure, but it can also sometimes help with storytelling since you can more easily chart out when specific events are going to happen. And it isn't even like WWE hasn't done that. Kurt Angle was made a big name from the off but it also wasn't like he was rolling in and ankle locking Austin or Rock on his debut, he was slowly progressing up the card to build crediblity. Jeff Hardy was established as an upper midcarder on and off for years and the same goes for countless other people. But as said before, there's a weird balacing act where they want to protect everyone but don't actually make them, just attempt to make them over enough for a rainy day that never comes. So people take it as though they don't have plans for them, true or not.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Feb 28, 2022 11:51:47 GMT -5
I understand what you mean, but it's not the kind of thing you can transfer 1:1 to WWE, just because the structure of their schedules are so different to each other. Would New Japan be booking differently if they had a set-in-stone weekly TV show or two to do? Would WWE be booking differently if they had the more ad hoc schedule based around recurring events? I guess what it comes down to for me is... WWE somehow has to change the fan's current expectations that none of anything will actually lead to anything, so why bother getting behind a talent unless they're blatantly just winning every single match without struggle, after all that's the only way we know that the office is behind them? How does THAT happen? Until WWE can get back to a place with their programming where their fans approach a show from AT LEAST a neutral standpoint and without any sort of fear, dread or cynicism that careers will literally live or die depending on who gets counted for three seconds on the mat, we will be having these conversations over and over again. Honestly, I think AEW is making it work right now; people spent a lot of the first year and a half or so of the promotion knowing that, for example, Jungle Boy wasn't on the same tier as Kenny Omega, but over that time it was clear that they were gradually building up who Jungle Boy could beat, who he'd be competitive against, and eventually started giving him spots where it no longer felt strange for him to beat someone who might've been considered above him during the first year of the promotion. It just takes some care and planning, really. Live TV demands can definitely make things more complicated, for sure, but it can also sometimes help with storytelling since you can more easily chart out when specific events are going to happen. In that same vein, I look at Adam Page and I’m like… For a guy that’s only lost two matches in a year and a bit, there ain’t exactly a queue of people lining up with “HANGMAN WINS LOL” takes. And that comes back to long-term storytelling, I suppose.
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Post by asuka007 on Feb 28, 2022 11:56:29 GMT -5
Hangman is not booked like an unbearable god and “above everybody else.”
It seems to be a fundamental difference in philosophy in how AEW books their top people vs. how WWE does it.
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Feb 28, 2022 12:04:03 GMT -5
Hangman is not booked like an unbearable god and “above everybody else.” It seems to be a fundamental difference in philosophy in how AEW books their top people vs. how WWE does it. I think it says a lot more about how reactions to how WWE books and AEW books is different.
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Post by nisidhe on Feb 28, 2022 12:10:45 GMT -5
I would even add in Ronda isn't a draw at all anymore either. Ronda was a questionable draw and a huge risk to take on the first time she showed up in WWE. She was already a couple years removed from losing her UFC title to Holly Holm and, while she had some status as UFC's first women's champion, she had been the best of what was arguably a bad lot at the time. When the sport caught up, she fell behind. Still, WWE's paying good money for her; might as well use her as well as they can.
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asuka007
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Post by asuka007 on Feb 28, 2022 12:19:21 GMT -5
Ronda might get SOME new eyes on the product.
But her peak was quite a few years ago, her UFC exit was embarrassing, and the last thing of note she did in general was her last WWE run, which also ended poorly.
IDK that she is the “attraction” that WWE seems to think she is anymore?
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Post by Kalmia on Feb 28, 2022 12:36:20 GMT -5
I would LOVE it if WWE would make some cool matches for the women not involving the belt. Just two talented women, facing off. They can do it with the men every year (we might be getting Edge vs. AJ this year, which would be another one). It’s what I was hoping Sasha and Rhea would do as well. But if you are not going for the top women’s belts, you’re either: In a battle Royale that is meaningless. In a tag title match for belts WWE cares nothing about. It’s very disappointing. Yeah, if Asuka is ready to go, then instead of putting together a random tag team, why not give her a match against Sasha? 10-15 minutes and they'd tear the stadium down. Finish the Sonya vs. Naomi story (maybe with a stip saying if Sonya loses, she also loses her authority role) and maybe let Rhea show what she can do against Alexa or Doudrop. Then you can have the winners of the matches lining up as the next title challengers, too.
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Post by asuka007 on Feb 28, 2022 12:47:59 GMT -5
The fact that they spent SEVEN MONTHS on the Naomi vs. Sonya feud, and had Naomi look like a chump for like 99% of the time.
And Naomi is not at least going to get her final revenge by truly battering Sonya at Mania. Instead it’s seemingly just being dropped and Ronda is going to get the “beat up Sonya” rub instead.
This might be one of the worst feuds I’ve ever seen. It has been awful and seemingly won’t even have a decent payoff.
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Post by polarbearpete on Feb 28, 2022 13:08:07 GMT -5
The fact that they spent SEVEN MONTHS on the Naomi vs. Sonya feud, and had Naomi look like a chump for like 99% of the time. And Naomi is not at least going to get her final revenge by truly battering Sonya at Mania. Instead it’s seemingly just being dropped and Ronda is going to get the “beat up Sonya” rub instead. This might be one of the worst feuds I’ve ever seen. It has been awful and seemingly won’t even have a decent payoff. The payoff for Naomi was beating Sonya on the Smackdown before the Rumble one-on-one. They just continued the feud after for little reason.
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Post by knsffa on Feb 28, 2022 13:08:43 GMT -5
Ronda might get SOME new eyes on the product. But her peak was quite a few years ago, her UFC exit was embarrassing, and the last thing of note she did in general was her last WWE run, which also ended poorly. IDK that she is the “attraction” that WWE seems to think she is anymore? Even if she gets some new eyes on the product, do these eyes actually stay on past Mania? 2.0 was supposed to bring in droves of new fans, yet seems to have merely replaced the fans who checked out after the revamp with some new fans who 'hate indy wrestlers'. Total Divas supposedly brought in tons of new fans yet ratings for RAW and Smackdown didn't really reflect that. It does not seem anyone or anything really drives in a lot of new fans for the long haul. In reply to the main post: I'd love to see both Asuka and Bayley get decent roles at Mania. With the show being 2 nights, lets assume 3 hours and 15-20 minutes or so main show and 1 hour pre-show that does mean more matches than a normal card. Yet if they don't do matches on the pre-shows or just have lets say a battle royal on the pre-show each night with seven matches each night on the main show... that doesn't exactly bode well for both having top singles matches. Between the confirmed matches and the rumored 'celebrity' matches and big name return it feels like when all that is confirmed, there won't be as many open slots as it seems.
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Post by asuka007 on Feb 28, 2022 13:32:19 GMT -5
The fact that they spent SEVEN MONTHS on the Naomi vs. Sonya feud, and had Naomi look like a chump for like 99% of the time. And Naomi is not at least going to get her final revenge by truly battering Sonya at Mania. Instead it’s seemingly just being dropped and Ronda is going to get the “beat up Sonya” rub instead. This might be one of the worst feuds I’ve ever seen. It has been awful and seemingly won’t even have a decent payoff. The payoff for Naomi was beating Sonya on the Smackdown before the Rumble one-on-one. They just continued the feud after for little reason. For how long that feud dragged on for, and for how much of a chump they made Naomi look for most of it. No, that was nowhere even close to being a good enough “payoff.”
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Post by 06vwgti on Feb 28, 2022 13:35:51 GMT -5
The fact that they spent SEVEN MONTHS on the Naomi vs. Sonya feud, and had Naomi look like a chump for like 99% of the time. And Naomi is not at least going to get her final revenge by truly battering Sonya at Mania. Instead it’s seemingly just being dropped and Ronda is going to get the “beat up Sonya” rub instead. This might be one of the worst feuds I’ve ever seen. It has been awful and seemingly won’t even have a decent payoff. The payoff for Naomi was beating Sonya on the Smackdown before the Rumble one-on-one. They just continued the feud after for little reason. Very underwhelming feud ender
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Post by polarbearpete on Feb 28, 2022 13:42:48 GMT -5
The payoff for Naomi was beating Sonya on the Smackdown before the Rumble one-on-one. They just continued the feud after for little reason. Very underwhelming feud ender Yeah it wasn’t a very good feud at all. It dragged for too long. I’m certainly not clamoring for another match for them at Mania.
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