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Post by sungod2020 on Mar 25, 2022 12:35:23 GMT -5
Since the 1930s, pro wrestling being fixed was the worst kept secret. If anybody thought it was real, it were uneducated inbred yokels. I don't know how the staged aspect on it could've been lost on her, non-fans rip on us all the time for it. I wouldn't be quite THAT crass about it, but old-timers (like the racket-wielding Louisvillian) tend to really overestimate Kayfabe from back in the day. Once you're old enough to know what a real fight looks like, wrestling has a light shone on it, and you either take it for what it is or you move on.
As for when it became a work? Probably sometime in the 20's or 30's. I don't think it happened for all of wrestling everywhere overnight, or anything, but Toots Mondt and Strangler Lewis were the first to do it, to my knowledge, because otherwise pro wrestling was more or less like watching paint dry until someone got tired or tapped from a joint lock, hence the need to "work" it in the first place. There had to be people on some level who thought it was real. Riots broke out when the bad guys won and heels needed to be escorted by police despite the fact that the scripted nature of it was brought up in pop culture(such as that Woody Woodpecker episode). There was an incident at the Superdome where someone wanted to kill The Freebirds for blinding JYD(causing him to kayfabe miss the birth of his daughter) as he(JYD) was conflicted about breaking the fourth wall publicly by stopping their would-be assassin from following through on it. Fortunately security stopped the fan from doing it. Still none of it added up and this is why wrestling fans are stereotyped for being morons who thinking it's real.
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cjh
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,583
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Post by cjh on Mar 25, 2022 12:43:19 GMT -5
I wouldn't be quite THAT crass about it, but old-timers (like the racket-wielding Louisvillian) tend to really overestimate Kayfabe from back in the day. Once you're old enough to know what a real fight looks like, wrestling has a light shone on it, and you either take it for what it is or you move on.
As for when it became a work? Probably sometime in the 20's or 30's. I don't think it happened for all of wrestling everywhere overnight, or anything, but Toots Mondt and Strangler Lewis were the first to do it, to my knowledge, because otherwise pro wrestling was more or less like watching paint dry until someone got tired or tapped from a joint lock, hence the need to "work" it in the first place. There had to be people on some level who thought it was real. Riots broke out when the bad guys won and heels needed to be escorted by police despite the fact that the scripted nature of it was brought up in pop culture(such as that Woody Woodpecker episode). There was an incident at the Superdome where someone wanted to kill The Freebirds for blinding JYD(causing him to kayfabe miss the birth of his daughter) as he(JYD) was conflicted about breaking the fourth wall publicly by stopping their would-be assassin from following through on it. Fortunately security stopped the fan from doing it. Still none of it added up and this is why wrestling fans are stereotyped for being morons who thinking it's real. www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzciBUkM6SsIn this 1985 AWA match, the Road Warriors were attacked by some fans after a heated angle with them and the Hennigs.
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msc
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,447
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Post by msc on Mar 25, 2022 12:46:41 GMT -5
Simon Whistler is a good YouTuber.
Weirdly, I'm sure I posted about this very topic a few weeks ago but now I can't find it at all and am now wondering if I'm Mandela effecting my own posts...
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Post by EP 54 is banned from Collision on Mar 25, 2022 12:53:13 GMT -5
There had to be people on some level who thought it was real. Riots broke out when the bad guys won and heels needed to be escorted by police despite the fact that the scripted nature of it was brought up in pop culture(such as that Woody Woodpecker episode). There was an incident at the Superdome where someone wanted to kill The Freebirds for blinding JYD(causing him to kayfabe miss the birth of his daughter) as he(JYD) was conflicted about breaking the fourth wall publicly by stopping their would-be assassin from following through on it. Fortunately security stopped the fan from doing it. Still none of it added up and this is why wrestling fans are stereotyped for being morons who thinking it's real. www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzciBUkM6SsIn this 1985 AWA match, the Road Warriors were attacked by some fans after a heated angle with them and the Hennigs. I mean, people have had death threats and been assaulted by fans because of what their soap opera character has done. I'm pretty sure the false nature of soap operas is well known by everyone.
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msc
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,447
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Post by msc on Mar 25, 2022 13:02:30 GMT -5
Found it! It wasn't my brain, it was the forum's search engine now looking up anything from the last 2 months?
Actually, I find [this topic] fascinating because we don't really know for sure when the line blurring between amateur sport and pro-wrestling we know actually happened. For example, the Hackenschmidt/Gotch matches were at one point referred to as legit contests. And by today's standards, they could have been. But there was certainly a carny aspect even then, as the two would exchange falls to make their matches more exciting and thus increase the payoff! There was also the time Gotch allegedly took advantage of an injured opponent by shoot pinning them in quick succession so he looked good, having told them he'd look after them out there beforehand! I wish I still had that book on early 20th Century wrestling, it was full of fascinating stories. Like the one where Gotch (I think?) was promoting a match only for his opponent to attack him and throw him into an orchestra pit to the horror of the public.
Even before the infamously tedious Stecher/Lewis fight during WW1, the line between shoot and arranged was a thin one. In the 1890s there was a wrestler called Yusuf Ismail who made it big on the circuits as The Terrible Turk, and made a lot of money on a US Tour as an evil foreigner following a gimmicked run. However, he kept kayfabe on his gimmick to the nth degree, to the tragic point that the ship he was travelling on sunk and he kept his gimmick to the point of dying. In Europe, catch as catch can developed at the funfairs and carnivals and so its exact travel from sport to work is murky (though it was in use at the 1904 Olympics and the Olympics lot tried to remove the more showy elements to make it a sport again!).
This sort of stuff fascinates me.
As did finding out my Dad had assumed Mick McManus was legit "unlike the WWF" as the 60s school was closer to amateur/hybrid than modern.
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Ozman
Samurai Cop
Chi-Town!!!
Posts: 2,352
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Post by Ozman on Mar 25, 2022 13:26:28 GMT -5
Wasn’t Ed “Strangler” Lewis the first wrestler to lean into wrestling being a work?
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Post by flowercity on Mar 25, 2022 14:17:35 GMT -5
I had the exact same sentiment as you until I started dating my girlfriend. When we first started dating my love (obsession, truthfully) for wrestling came up. During that convo she was really confused about it being “fake.” She had no clue that it wasn’t really. It threw her for a major loop. Parsing it out, it’s because she never even took the time to think about pro wrestling. She had no tie to wrestling. She never had seen a second of it on TV. Her awareness was that it was what The Rock did before he became famous. I think there are a lot of people like her. They might think it’s real, but that’s because they really could care less about wrestling in the first place. Why waste any time thinking about it in any way? Since the 1930s, pro wrestling being fixed was the worst kept secret. If anybody thought it was real, it were uneducated inbred yokels. I don't know how the staged aspect on it could've been lost on her, non-fans rip on us all the time for it. What a weird comment! Try reading mine. It exactly explains how she thought it. Or call her an inbred yokel. Sure, pal.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Mar 25, 2022 14:19:32 GMT -5
There is legit footage from the black and white days. Of wrestlers doing high flying spots with plateforms spring them into the ring. It came across my FB page today.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 23,534
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Post by Bo Rida on Mar 25, 2022 14:58:24 GMT -5
There's some good stuff in the early history of British wrestling for a few minutes from 6:24 of this documentary. m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd8RiTL3zioNot sure I quite believe it's fixed Vs not fixed timeline but otherwise really interesting.
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Post by sungod2020 on Mar 25, 2022 15:34:34 GMT -5
Since the 1930s, pro wrestling being fixed was the worst kept secret. If anybody thought it was real, it were uneducated inbred yokels. I don't know how the staged aspect on it could've been lost on her, non-fans rip on us all the time for it. What a weird comment! Try reading mine. It exactly explains how she thought it. Or call her an inbred yokel. Sure, pal. I'm saying non-fans rip on wrestling fans for enjoying it because it's fake as if they're somehow better than us. Apparently they must've heard of it being scripted somehow even if they've never been exposed to two seconds of it. These inbred yokels who thought it was real were wrestling fans, so she wouldn't be included in there. I'm just saying it was common knowledge throughout the general public - fan or not.
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Johnny B. Decent
Patti Mayonnaise
Had one once
Everybody's Favorite Arizonian.
Posts: 31,073
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Post by Johnny B. Decent on Mar 25, 2022 17:45:47 GMT -5
Pro Wrestling has to be a work. It would be impossible to pull off 90% of the moves without the opponent co-opperating. It amazes me that anybody could ever think it WASN'T a work. I mean... The Irish Whip alone should give it away. But what about the punches? One punch in a normal fight could kill someone. But these guys don't even get phased lol.Overall I actually think I became more fascinated with it when I found it was all a work. Cause then it became like a Theatre... A dance. An art form almost. Has anybody ever died from being punched in the face? I think what's really jarring is you almost never see them get any bruises, getting punched in the face multiple times can do that. Yeah. Not even getting into all the boxers who've died in the ring, if you manage to push someone's bones in their nose up into their brains, that can kill them, for example.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2022 17:48:56 GMT -5
Has anybody ever died from being punched in the face? I think what's really jarring is you almost never see them get any bruises, getting punched in the face multiple times can do that. That douchebag harassing Poe’s wife in beginning of Con Air? Nicolas Cage is just tougher than everyone else, lol.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Mar 25, 2022 17:50:56 GMT -5
That douchebag harassing Poe’s wife in beginning of Con Air? Nicolas Cage is just tougher than everyone else, lol. You goddamn rights he is
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Post by Big BosskMan on Mar 25, 2022 18:13:57 GMT -5
Probably decided to make it a work after Rome fell and the Colosseum fights to the death were no longer pulling in a good gate. I mean, Davidius Meltzerium of Gladiatorial Observances only gave the grand centerpiece of the Maximus Decimus Meridius vs Commodus feud a mere 3 steles due to overplaying to the crowd and use of a foreign object.
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