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Post by The Rick Jericho on Apr 24, 2022 18:15:44 GMT -5
He loses the title at Unforgiven, then just continues to choke again and again.
Was he pretty much dead in the water as a babyface by the beginning of 2005?
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Apr 24, 2022 18:31:10 GMT -5
Orton was pretty much dead in the water as a face the moment Evolution attacked him...
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Apr 24, 2022 18:38:10 GMT -5
Orton as a face was already pretty staggered by the combination of never giving you an actual reason to cheer for him, having Triple H immediately beat him, and his character completely shifting into being kind of something along the line of a bad Rock knockoff not at all playing to his strengths, though feel like the Christian / Stacy Keibler side story was kind of the point of it being unsalvageable.
Though really in general Orton just plain wasn't a main event level talent until like mid-2007 or so. He always felt completely out of place being at that level until he started punting people.
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Apr 24, 2022 19:00:07 GMT -5
The promo he cut to open the Raw when Evolution turned on him was just so baffling in hindsight. Like, he shook Benoit's hand the night before at Summerslam and he was ostensibly going to be turning face at the end of the show so it would make sense he cuts a face-like or at least neutral promo to condition fans to be on his side and feel bad for what's about to come. What actually happens though is he cuts a regular heel promo, asking all the 24 year olds in the crowd to stand up so he can laugh at them for not achieving anything in their lives. Well surprise surprise, the crowd he just mocked popped when he got beat up an hour or two later.
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Post by Zaq "That Guy" Buzzkill on Apr 24, 2022 19:07:01 GMT -5
The funny thing is that I think creative realized how much they f***ed up with Orton and actually did the heel-face betrayal with Batista brilliantly.
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Apr 24, 2022 19:14:48 GMT -5
The funny thing is that I think creative realized how much they f***ed up with Orton and actually did the heel-face betrayal with Batista brilliantly. That had its missteps - like feeling the need to have a segment of Batista eavesdropping on Flair and Triple H talking shit about him so that the audience knew he was turning before he did, and that time Batista shoved a flag up the ass of one of the La Resistance members - but yeah, on the whole that was handled muuuuuch better than Orton's turn. Though for that matter the eventual match was much better than any match Orton and Triple H ever had together.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Apr 24, 2022 20:00:08 GMT -5
The funny thing is that I think creative realized how much they f***ed up with Orton and actually did the heel-face betrayal with Batista brilliantly. That had its missteps - like feeling the need to have a segment of Batista eavesdropping on Flair and Triple H talking shit about him so that the audience knew he was turning before he did, and that time Batista shoved a flag up the ass of one of the La Resistance members - but yeah, on the whole that was handled muuuuuch better than Orton's turn. Though for that matter the eventual match was much better than any match Orton and Triple H ever had together. Probably helped that Batista was a lot easier to transition into a face, and that Triple H very clearly wanted to put him over huge, whereas so much of Orton being pushed to that level was transparently WWE doing it because Brock had bailed on them and they wanted someone younger as a world champion to spite him. Batista's turn was much more organically timed.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Apr 24, 2022 20:08:40 GMT -5
Orton winning the title wasn't bad (even if they wanted to erase Brock) because as a heel in theory you could had Evolution back him up and help him but he had the talent to test the water
But yeah, he had no clue how to be a babyface and it showed. The RKO was over huge and he had fan support after the turn but HHH taking the title from him killed the momentum and then he just wandered around. He turned into a pandering babyface which did nothing to play to his strengths. He didn't truly find himself again until he turned heel and feuded with Taker
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Post by fw91 on Apr 24, 2022 21:26:13 GMT -5
Think the plan was Orton to win the feud at mania 21, but Batista was getting red hot...
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Apr 24, 2022 21:34:01 GMT -5
I think Orton also never getting any remote comeuppens or consequences after over a year of being a scumbag asshole made people really hesitant to cheer for him.
Triple H turning on him really was his just deserts.
It did seem like the plan for Wrestlemania 21 at one point may have been a four-way match with all the members of Evolution, especially around the time it seemed like we were headed for Undertaker and Kane vs Snitsky and Heidenreich.
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4real
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Post by 4real on Apr 25, 2022 0:50:49 GMT -5
Orton losing the belt straight to HHH at Unforgiven killed him in my eyes really. I remember having Survivor Series 04 on DVD and feeling just how unnatural Orton was as a face. Also a face that keeps losing and only wins in pointless situations (like Survivor Series) isn’t going to get over.
Then you had him choke again in the Chamber and lose via concussion at Royal Rumble when people had already stopped caring. Not sure how early the Batista push started but it seemed plans where changed near the end of 04 when it seemed we were getting Orton beating HHH for the title at Mania 21.
Think it was all for the best but the booking could have been better. Having Orton lose the belt so early was the biggest problem imo.
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Post by clifford on Apr 25, 2022 8:28:40 GMT -5
His face promos in that first face run between September 2004 and early 2005 when he RKO'ed Stacy Kiebler were some of the worst try hard and atrocious babyface promos to ever exist.
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Post by XaviersSS2015hair on May 4, 2022 11:04:34 GMT -5
That had its missteps - like feeling the need to have a segment of Batista eavesdropping on Flair and Triple H talking shit about him so that the audience knew he was turning before he did, and that time Batista shoved a flag up the ass of one of the La Resistance members - but yeah, on the whole that was handled muuuuuch better than Orton's turn. Though for that matter the eventual match was much better than any match Orton and Triple H ever had together. Probably helped that Batista was a lot easier to transition into a face, and that Triple H very clearly wanted to put him over huge, whereas so much of Orton being pushed to that level was transparently WWE doing it because Brock had bailed on them and they wanted someone younger as a world champion to spite him. Batista's turn was much more organically timed. In a thread a few years back I said that WWE wanted Brock off their record books as youngest champion in history out of spite because he had just left them. Everybody acted like I was insane for even insinuating that. Like WWE isn't known for reacting to former talents like a petty ex boyfriend/girlfriend. 😂
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Post by Mayonnaise on May 4, 2022 11:10:48 GMT -5
Think the plan was Orton to win the feud at mania 21, but Batista was getting red hot... Yeah and he was a shit head backstage and lost the push.
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Post by fg on May 4, 2022 11:12:49 GMT -5
One of the few saving graces during this is when Randy led a locker room revolt against Evolution (actually it was just the faces). There were times when the faces actually had *gasp* backbone and stood up to Evolution and outnumbered them. There was even one handicap match between Randy, Jericho & Maven against Batista and Flair. (HHH was MIA due to…reasons.) Than HHH music hits. Flair and Basketball Jones are relieved…until it was revealed that it was Tajiri (Evolution attacked him earlier.) Flair and Jones are now screwed and they lost. During that match, the faces actually acted like heels just to show how fed up they were about Evolution.
Of course, this ended with Ortob being owned.
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Post by XaviersSS2015hair on May 4, 2022 11:12:50 GMT -5
On the most recent STWW Bruce even says he wouldn't have had Evolution turn on Orton the night after winning the title. They know they messed it up.
I don't really see what was so bad about it though. Noted glory hog Triple H doesn't want anybody holding the belt but him. Especially his understudy that he brought up. I think in typical WWE fashion they fumbled the ball and had no idea how to follow up on the idea. Even 18 years ago they had a hard time figuring out how to create a babyface that people could get behind.
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Post by XaviersSS2015hair on May 4, 2022 11:15:37 GMT -5
One of the few saving graces during this is when Randy led a locker room revolt against Evolution (actually it was just the faces). There were times when the faces actually had *gasp* backbone and stood up to Evolution and outnumbered them. There was even one handicap match between Randy, Jericho & Maven against Batista and Flair. (HHH was MIA due to…reasons.) Than HHH music hits. Flair and Basketball Jones are relieved…until it was revealed that it was Tajiri (Evolution attacked him earlier.) Flair and Jones are now screwed and they lost. During that match, the faces actually acted like heels just to show how fed up they were about Evolution. Of course, this ended with Ortob being owned. If Evolution was doing the J-O-B you just answered your own question as to why Triple H wasn't there lol
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on May 4, 2022 11:17:34 GMT -5
I'll never forget his match with Hunter at the Royal Rumble. Orton has been battered the whole match and is suffering from a "concussion" and is just out of it. Hunter goes for the sledgehammer - REALIZES HE DOESN'T NEED TO EVEN CHEAT - hits the Pedigree and wins. Just going out of your way to make him look worse.
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Post by XaviersSS2015hair on May 4, 2022 11:28:35 GMT -5
I'll never forget his match with Hunter at the Royal Rumble. Orton has been battered the whole match and is suffering from a "concussion" and is just out of it. Hunter goes for the sledgehammer - REALIZES HE DOESN'T NEED TO EVEN CHEAT - hits the Pedigree and wins. Just going out of your way to make him look worse. I attended RR 05 and that's far more detail than I even remember about the match. I just remember the crowd being dead quiet and personally being relieved when it was finally over. I bought the DVD but never felt the need to rewatch that match. Good Lord those 2 are painfully boring together. A friend of mine ordered the Unforgiven 04 PPV. I went to his house to watch it and literally fell asleep sitting up in his recliner during the Orton vs Triple H main event 😆🤦♂️
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Post by nickcave on May 4, 2022 12:35:26 GMT -5
I mean that's partially what his 09 Legacy run and feud with HHH was about
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