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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Aug 21, 2023 22:15:26 GMT -5
Figured I'd start this since I can at least get it started from neutral ground without being all rage-y and stanny about it.
It's a perpetual topic of debate, women's wrestling in both major promotions. Since this is the WWE board, this will focus primarily on WWE. The last two main shows seem to cover two perspectives of the situation. Two short uncompetitive matches on the RAW just completed, while SmackDown had one long competitive match with "the wrong winners", as many of us will rush to tell you. Not to mention we've just had a non-title feud extended an extra PPV cycle somewhat needlessly. It's a situation that needs improvement. But what does that look like? It is something that needs constant evaluation and, for lack of a better term, vigilance. It's not something that you can just wave a magic wand and say "Women's wrestling in this promotion is all good now". And also, we do have to discuss what has to happen with the much larger men's rosters, many of whom a lot of these issues like lack of TV time, "wrong winners" and short matches would apply to in their own right, to accommodate the change we want to see in the women's division.
So let's start. I've already done the survey thing of which specific talents should be pushed, and it does generally match up with who is getting the most TV time (the only "main event" wrestlers, as suggested by you guys, who weren't in a match or a promo segment in the shows mentioned just before were Asuka, who appeared post-match anyway, and the injured Liv Morgan). But what things need to be done?
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Post by mistery on Aug 21, 2023 22:40:10 GMT -5
I am really only going to comment on the title scenes.
First off, the RAW scene:
Rhea has been built up strong, but literally at the expense of every other woman not counting Becky. If Rhea makes it past her, then all bets are off because WWE is building up absolutely nobody else. They have been trying with Raquel but the woman has negative levels of charisma and personality, and the fact that she STILL isn't over even after over a year of being on the main roster is damning.
As for the Smackdown scene:
WWE made a good decision putting the title on Iyo. Audiences love her and its fresh blood at the top. Problem is that is where it ends. Its PAINFULLY obvious that the end game is Bianca vs Charlotte for the title, despite the repeated teases of the feud indicating when they actually feud over the title, it will be absolutely cold audience wise. It doesn't help when Charlotte recently mentioned she is pushing hard backstage to break the record real soon title wise as well. She thinks it will be the pinnacle of her legacy and she NEEDS it apparently? And Bianca is always going to get pushed in the title scene because god forbid the women have non-title feuds. Nevermind the fact that she has the longest women's title reign in modern history, despite it being ice cold at the end. And her character having cooled off dramatically, especially since Iyo was getting just as good of a reception as she was. And Iyo is supposed to be the heel.
Meanwhile the rest of the women waste away because WWE can't be assed to do non-title women's feuds because we need 1824 weeks of The Judgement Day vs Cody/Sami/Kevin on RAW, and at least 50 minutes of Smackdown dedicated to the Bloodline and recaps of Bloodline stuff. And any women's time on SD is largely dominated by Bianca and/or Charlotte running over others.
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Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Aug 21, 2023 22:40:50 GMT -5
There needs to be a tier between the “main” women and everybody else. Rhea’s reign is suffering because they made everybody cannon fodder. I don’t know if that means hiring new women or taking bets on some NXT stars, but something’s gotta give.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Aug 21, 2023 22:49:28 GMT -5
There needs to be a tier between the “main” women and everybody else. Rhea’s reign is suffering because they made everybody cannon fodder. I don’t know if that means hiring new women or taking bets on some NXT stars, but something’s gotta give. I think it means just giving the midcard women decent-length matches against each other and other segments and seeing what happens. Like, on the men's side, I think of someone like Chad Gable. He didn't get over as he did being around championships and main eventers all the time, or even winning a lot of matches, they just gave him the time and space to do his stuff in and out of the ring. And go figure, he got over. Same with LA Knight. There's a BIG midcard of women, like f***ing 20 of them on the main roster alone, of varying wrestler archetypes and looks that could get over if you just give them time (and are willing to take the probable ratings hit in doing so). |
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Post by mistery on Aug 21, 2023 22:53:44 GMT -5
There needs to be a tier between the “main” women and everybody else. Rhea’s reign is suffering because they made everybody cannon fodder. I don’t know if that means hiring new women or taking bets on some NXT stars, but something’s gotta give. I think it means just giving the midcard women decent-length matches against each other and other segments and seeing what happens. Like, on the men's side, I think of someone like Chad Gable. He didn't get over as he did being around championships and main eventers all the time, or even winning a lot of matches, they just gave him the time and space to do his stuff in and out of the ring. And go figure, he got over. Same with LA Knight. There's a BIG midcard of women, like f***ing 20 of them on the main roster alone, of varying wrestler archetypes and looks that could get over if you just give them time (and are willing to take the probable ratings hit in doing so). The kicker is, I don't even think there would be much of a ratings hit. Look at Smackdown last week. No Bloodline stuff, rating stayed largely steady compared to the week before, with the women's tag match actually gaining viewers. It's just that Triple H is incredibly bad at time management, and on Smackdown, Roman and Heyman have a LOT of say on how long their segments go (and their creative in general). And the women's stuff is always the first to get axed if Roman wants his stuff to drag on long. |
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Post by Carefree Beach Life Gritizen on Aug 21, 2023 23:03:21 GMT -5
There needs to be a tier between the “main” women and everybody else. Rhea’s reign is suffering because they made everybody cannon fodder. I don’t know if that means hiring new women or taking bets on some NXT stars, but something’s gotta give. I think it means just giving the midcard women decent-length matches against each other and other segments and seeing what happens. Like, on the men's side, I think of someone like Chad Gable. He didn't get over as he did being around main eventers all the time, or even winning a lot of matches, they just gave him the time and space to do his stuff in and out of the ring. And go figure, he got over. Same with LA Knight. There's a BIG midcard of women, like f***ing 20 of them on the main roster alone, of varying wrestler archetypes and looks that could get over if you just give them time (and are willing to take the probable ratings hit in doing so). Yeah, they need consistent time. I'll focus on Kayden & Katana since they came out to complete silence tonight. They had a great main roster debut against Ronda & Shayna. The match was really fun, and they got the crowd behind them as it went along. But they got time, since that match, they've gotten 4 matches with match lengths of 2:01, a gauntlet match where they lasted just under 3 minutes, 2:20 and whatever tonight's match length was which was probably around 2 minutes as well. It's also been almost 40 days since their last appearance. They aren't going to get over with such little time, especially when they are losing a majority of the time. |
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lionheart21
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Post by lionheart21 on Aug 21, 2023 23:13:54 GMT -5
I think it means just giving the midcard women decent-length matches against each other and other segments and seeing what happens. Like, on the men's side, I think of someone like Chad Gable. He didn't get over as he did being around main eventers all the time, or even winning a lot of matches, they just gave him the time and space to do his stuff in and out of the ring. And go figure, he got over. Same with LA Knight. There's a BIG midcard of women, like f***ing 20 of them on the main roster alone, of varying wrestler archetypes and looks that could get over if you just give them time (and are willing to take the probable ratings hit in doing so). Yeah, they need consistent time. I'll focus on Kayden & Katana since they came out to complete silence tonight. They had a great main roster debut against Ronda & Shayna. The match was really fun, and they got the crowd behind them as it went along. But they got time, since that match, they've gotten 4 matches with match lengths of 2:01, a gauntlet match where they lasted just under 3 minutes, 2:20 and whatever tonight's match length was which was probably around 2 minutes as well. It's also been almost 40 days since their last appearance. They aren't going to get over with such little time, especially when they are losing a majority of the time. Carter and Chance went from being the longest-reigning NXT Womens Tag Champs to.....this. The audience didn't have any reason to care about them because they haven't been given a reason to care about them since they were called up. And speaking of the NXT Womens tag champs...Fyre and Dawn have made about as many appearances, if not less, than Chance and Carter, and haven't been on TV since June when the titles became unified. |
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Post by asuka007 on Aug 22, 2023 0:06:41 GMT -5
1. Give it more time. You have a THREE HOUR show, there’s no excuse.
2. Build up more women as credible. Rhea vs. Candice is an awesome match on paper. And Rhea could even win clean in the end, that is not an issue. But they just REFUSE to even let mist women look credible against Rhea.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2023 6:55:22 GMT -5
More time
A mid card title
Non title feuds
The issues are IMO easily solvable they just refuse to solve them.
They could stand to take alot of booking cues from STARDOM quite frankly.
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XIII
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Post by XIII on Aug 22, 2023 7:22:05 GMT -5
Book them the same way that they do the men. Give them feuds, promo time, and decent length matches and someone besides one of the top 4 or so will get over.
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Bo Rida
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Post by Bo Rida on Aug 22, 2023 7:27:50 GMT -5
From an outside perspective I think they need to enter a clear post-horsewoman era. Exactly how or what that would look like I don't know and it doesn't even necessarily mean the horsewomen shouldn't be involved, just that they should be taking a back seat. I guess an equivalent to new generation, attitude era or ruthless aggression branding. Drawing a line under what came before (even if many of the same people are involved) and the promise of something new. WWE made a good decision putting the title on Iyo. Audiences love her and its fresh blood at the top. Problem is that is where it ends. Its PAINFULLY obvious that the end game is Bianca vs Charlotte for the title, despite the repeated teases of the feud indicating when they actually feud over the title, it will be absolutely cold audience wise. It doesn't help when Charlotte recently mentioned she is pushing hard backstage to break the record real soon title wise as well. She thinks it will be the pinnacle of her legacy and she NEEDS it apparently? And this is why. Charlotte in particular looms over everything and has had one hell of a long reign at the top of the division without reinvention. A relatively fresh new champion should feel like entering new territory. |
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Aug 22, 2023 7:38:20 GMT -5
From an outside perspective I think they need to enter a clear post-horsewoman era. Exactly how or what that would look like I don't know and it doesn't even necessarily mean the horsewomen shouldn't be involved, just that they should be taking a back seat. I guess an equivalent to new generation, attitude era or ruthless aggression branding. Drawing a line under what came before even if many of the same people are involved. I think they'd all have to be actively gone for it to sink in. Like, look at the situation now. It's only really Flair who is still in title contention regularly. Lynch hasn't been near a title shot in over a year. Bayley has been trying to get over a heel stable for the last year. Banks is completely out of the territory. And the main stars of the division are arguably non-Horsewomen Ripley and Belair. Hell, for as much as we're always saying "Lynch is being saved for another title feud", it'll likely end up in her putting over Ripley, and it'll be the same with Flair and Belair (I mean, Flair finally did do the honours clean for Ripley in a big match, it's possible). What more can this era do to be more post-Horsewomen other than booting them out the door entirely? You shouldn't really be jobbing them out, otherwise it's just a waste of their starpower. |
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Post by Bo Rida on Aug 22, 2023 8:50:58 GMT -5
From an outside perspective I think they need to enter a clear post-horsewoman era. Exactly how or what that would look like I don't know and it doesn't even necessarily mean the horsewomen shouldn't be involved, just that they should be taking a back seat. I guess an equivalent to new generation, attitude era or ruthless aggression branding. Drawing a line under what came before even if many of the same people are involved. I think they'd all have to be actively gone for it to sink in. Like, look at the situation now. It's only really Flair who is still in title contention regularly. Lynch hasn't been near a title shot in over a year. Bayley has been trying to get over a heel stable for the last year. Banks is completely out of the territory. And the main stars of the division are arguably non-Horsewomen Ripley and Belair. Hell, for as much as we're always saying "Lynch is being saved for another title feud", it'll likely end up in her putting over Ripley, and it'll be the same with Flair and Belair (I mean, Flair finally did do the honours clean for Ripley in a big match, it's possible). What more can this era do to be more post-Horsewomen other than booting them out the door entirely? You shouldn't really be jobbing them out, otherwise it's just a waste of their starpower. I don't disagree, maybe they're in the process of doing that, it's all kind of intangible anyway and often only becomes clear in retrospect. Like 97 WWF being a prelude to what came next. My point is it isn't purely personnel or booking (eg Undertaker being prominent for decades didn't prevent the feel of different eras), the presentation matters and however it's done it should feel like Rhea in particular is leading a new era rather than continuing an old one. As I say it's an outside perspective and I'm judging by clips and others reactions so maybe this is already being done but others don't seem to feel it yet. |
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 22, 2023 9:06:59 GMT -5
Angles that aren't always just title-related ones would help considerably. Hell, that's a big part of what got Rhea as over as she is.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Aug 22, 2023 9:14:32 GMT -5
It's an issue that affects a lot of the main roster but I feel like especially impacts the women which is matches often get 1-3 minutes or they get main event calibre time (15+ minutes). There should be more of a middle ground where they have a tight 6-8 minute match where they can get their shit in and get the crowd invested. 1-3 minutes are fine in small quantities but that has become the norm far too often for some talent.
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Post by mistery on Aug 22, 2023 9:14:55 GMT -5
From an outside perspective I think they need to enter a clear post-horsewoman era. Exactly how or what that would look like I don't know and it doesn't even necessarily mean the horsewomen shouldn't be involved, just that they should be taking a back seat. I guess an equivalent to new generation, attitude era or ruthless aggression branding. Drawing a line under what came before even if many of the same people are involved. I think they'd all have to be actively gone for it to sink in. Like, look at the situation now. It's only really Flair who is still in title contention regularly. Lynch hasn't been near a title shot in over a year. Bayley has been trying to get over a heel stable for the last year. Banks is completely out of the territory. And the main stars of the division are arguably non-Horsewomen Ripley and Belair. Hell, for as much as we're always saying "Lynch is being saved for another title feud", it'll likely end up in her putting over Ripley, and it'll be the same with Flair and Belair (I mean, Flair finally did do the honours clean for Ripley in a big match, it's possible). What more can this era do to be more post-Horsewomen other than booting them out the door entirely? You shouldn't really be jobbing them out, otherwise it's just a waste of their starpower. I would go as far to say that Becky and Bayley at least know they shouldn't be the centerpiece of the division now and put over newer women more often these days. Like I don't expect Becky to beat Rhea. And Mercedes while not in WWE anymore, put over Mayu in NJPW and Willow (albeit likely unintentionally). And Bayley hasn't won a feud in over a year. On the flipside of the horsewomen equation, Charlotte very blatantly sees herself as someone who NEEDS to be in the title picture at all times. I remember her appearance on After the Bell where Graves and Vic asked her if she would ever envision herself outside of the title scene for an extended period of time, and she outright said no, and that she feels like she NEEDS the title to stay relevant. Out of all the 4HW, I would argue she has the biggest ego of the group (as well as the most unprofessional), and is the one hardest to work with. Especially since she has gotten into the habit of phoning it in if she is either going to look bad post match (if she wins the match) or is outright told she is losing. Because she knows people will either put the blame on the other wrestler or claim she had an "off night". Because WWE loves to tell people she is the best women's wrestler in WWE when in reality she has been one of the worst since returning after her loss to Rhea at Mania. Tl;dr: Becky and Bayley are largely fine right now and realize that they are better served putting over younger talents. Charlotte is stuck in the mindset that she should be the centerpiece of the company still and has shown she is incredibly selfish. And the next woman she is likely putting over clean is Bianca. Who doesn't need it as she just came off a 400+ day reign as champion and is already seen as a fully established star. |
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 22, 2023 10:20:02 GMT -5
It's an issue that affects a lot of the main roster but I feel like especially impacts the women which is matches often get 1-3 minutes or they get main event calibre time (15+ minutes). There should be more of a middle ground where they have a tight 6-8 minute match where they can get their shit in and get the crowd invested. 1-3 minutes are fine in small quantities but that has become the norm far too often for some talent. The vibe I had for awhile with their division is that they just didn't have enough depth, so a lot of what they'd do would feel like filler until they got to a major show where one of the main six or so women in the division would have a title match; made me argue that their best answer would be to just not divide the division between two shows, put them under one roof and introduce a midcard title. Not sure that's still the case; I'm not up on the full talents of everyone they've signed/called up of late, but it does seem like there should be more talent available now to do those slightly longer matches. That said, something that could be an issue for both divisions but that might feel more pronounced with the women is that WWE is seeing a lot of success right now with long term champions who, Gunther aside, don't seem to be booked to prioritize elevating their opponents; business is up with faces kind of looking stupid for always falling for Roman's interference finishes, with Rhea looking way stronger than anyone who steps to her, etc., so they don't have a lot of motivation to change that booking. It probably feels like a bigger issue with the women because, again, there's less overall numbers and depth there, and the resultant lack of midcard feuds makes it all stick out worse. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2023 10:27:18 GMT -5
It's an issue that affects a lot of the main roster but I feel like especially impacts the women which is matches often get 1-3 minutes or they get main event calibre time (15+ minutes). There should be more of a middle ground where they have a tight 6-8 minute match where they can get their shit in and get the crowd invested. 1-3 minutes are fine in small quantities but that has become the norm far too often for some talent. IYO is the perfect example to this IMO. IYO mostly gets stuck in multi woman matches or 1-3 min matches. But the very moment they started letting her loose she got over...and her Backlash match coincidently her only SINGLES ppv match she got over immensely and it has kept up ever since. on the opposite is Candice lastnight...first singles match in how long and doesn't even go 3 min like everyone knows Candice can go but how the f*** is lastnight suppose to do anything for her and really showscases a core problem everyone is mentioning. |
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Post by mistery on Aug 22, 2023 10:45:55 GMT -5
I would like to add onto this that while its just a hunch on my part, it doesn't feel like a coincidence that the women are getting way less time/love from creative now that Stephanie is gone from the company.
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Post by LiamMcDuggle on Aug 22, 2023 14:36:25 GMT -5
Figured I'd start this since I can at least get it started from neutral ground without being all rage-y and stanny about it. It's a perpetual topic of debate, women's wrestling in both major promotions. Since this is the WWE board, this will focus primarily on WWE. The last two main shows seem to cover two perspectives of the situation. Two short uncompetitive matches on the RAW just completed, while SmackDown had one long competitive match with "the wrong winners", as many of us will rush to tell you. Not to mention we've just had a non-title feud extended an extra PPV cycle somewhat needlessly. It's a situation that needs improvement. But what does that look like? It is something that needs constant evaluation and, for lack of a better term, vigilance. It's not something that you can just wave a magic wand and say "Women's wrestling in this promotion is all good now". And also, we do have to discuss what has to happen with the much larger men's rosters, many of whom a lot of these issues like lack of TV time, "wrong winners" and short matches would apply to in their own right, to accommodate the change we want to see in the women's division. So let's start. I've already done the survey thing of which specific talents should be pushed, and it does generally match up with who is getting the most TV time (the only "main event" wrestlers, as suggested by you guys, who weren't in a match or a promo segment in the shows mentioned just before were Asuka, who appeared post-match anyway, and the injured Liv Morgan). But what things need to be done? While the top women are better 99.9% of men who are wrestling, the overall pool of "elite women" who can both work REALLY well, and do the character stuff is a much smaller pool. I also think not putting the titles on the top women hurts more than helps. Cena and Reigns were always associated with the title, whereas Becky (the most over) has moved on from the title and is in a never ending blood feud that does not have any stakes. |
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