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Post by James Fabiano on Nov 5, 2023 11:33:05 GMT -5
We need a Bruce Lies thread.
It can't be as bad as the Network Ruthless Aggression series version.
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Ozman
Samurai Cop
Chi-Town!!!
Posts: 2,378
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Post by Ozman on Nov 5, 2023 12:06:16 GMT -5
When World Class went from WCCW to WCWA sounded weird.
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Post by OGBoardPoster2005 on Nov 5, 2023 12:29:51 GMT -5
Not if you view it as a merger of all the territories under one umbrella. The WWF was a National wrestling promotion that went International and became Worldwide. The WWWF was a regional Northeast promotion that evolved into the National WWF. WWE is the final evolution of those two along with WCW that itself was a conglomerate of JCP, GCW, CWF, and Mid-South, all formerly NWA territories at different times and ECW that started as a territory in Philadelphia under the NWA banner as well. When the acquisition happened, a name change was appropriate, the WWF was never going to be the same company it had been in 82 when Vince bought it, 87 at its height with Hogan, 92, or 97 when the Attitude Era rose because that common rival in WCW/NWA was gone and wrestling had evolved from territories to Worldwide, National and Independent regional promotions. The problem with this rationale is that WWE was never presented as a merger of all territories under one umbrella. Completely the opposite, in fact. It was presented as a mighty mainstream entertainment empire, while all those other companies were just (according to WWE) redneck rasslin territories that deserved death. Vince had no respect for any of them, and showed no respect for any of them, even for the company that almost put him out of business. He treated them like invading factions to be promptly humbled and shit out in front of the world. So to go from there and pretend that WWE is an umbrella instead of just the company who helped bury all the other companies and then pissed on their graves would be pretty disingenuous. The only good rationale for WWF to WWE is that they simply couldn't be WWF anymore and WWEntertainment was the best alternative they could come up with. You look at it from the feelings of someone who has no business or stake in it. Whether Vince feels one way or another is irrelvant. None of them have ever been presented as that but its easy to tell its a continuation of but under a different umbrella. People forget WCW wasn't intended as a continuation of the NWA but rather a consolidation of resources from different territories and promoters culminating with Turner's purchase. The precedent here is the CWA and WCCW. Both were separate promotions but together became the USWA, which in itself while it continued the legacy of mostly the CWA was still a culmination of a merger of the two. While Vince likely never intended to change the name given it was his own inspired by the Worldwide name, to categorize it as the same promotion without taking into account that other companies and there talents and gimmicks became part of the catalog is somewhat ignorant of the changeover from what the WWF was in February of 2001 to what it became by February 2007, nearly 5 years into the WWE name change where you had WCW characters like Ric Flair, Arn Anderson, the nWo, Booker T, Rey Mysterio and ECW characters like The Sandman, Sabu, Rob Van Dam, Taz, Paul Heyman and Rhyno featured in prominent spots, which wouldn't have happened in the WWF prior to the purchase and name change. Its an evolution and you can even trace the NWA/WCW Title belt all the way until 2014 in the WWE and ECW's World Title into 2009 after being revived in 2006.
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Post by OGBoardPoster2005 on Nov 5, 2023 12:40:17 GMT -5
Not if you view it as a merger of all the territories under one umbrella. The WWF was a National wrestling promotion that went International and became Worldwide. The WWWF was a regional Northeast promotion that evolved into the National WWF. WWE is the final evolution of those two along with WCW that itself was a conglomerate of JCP, GCW, CWF, and Mid-South, all formerly NWA territories at different times and ECW that started as a territory in Philadelphia under the NWA banner as well. When the acquisition happened, a name change was appropriate, the WWF was never going to be the same company it had been in 82 when Vince bought it, 87 at its height with Hogan, 92, or 97 when the Attitude Era rose because that common rival in WCW/NWA was gone and wrestling had evolved from territories to Worldwide, National and Independent regional promotions. This might have worked in kayfabe had they actually emphasised it on TV and showed respect to the history of all those companies, selling it as a union of different companies under a name that didn't tell the viewers that "hey this is all entertainment". But instead they went with "get the F out". In that era, doing so wouldn't have made sense from a marketing end. By May of 2002, it had been 14 months since WCW and ECW ended. To say, "hey we are all three of these companies combined" wouldn't appeal to anybody. The ECW fans knew what Vince's product was, same for the old NWA territory that became WCW fans, and the WWF fans would have just groaned at the idea of the other two. Fandom was very different in that era. The NFL never even marketed the AFL heritage until 2009, 50 years after the merger. It took the NBA 30 years to even do the same with the ABA. Nostalgia wouldn't have sold in that time, especially when so close to its end. That said, by 2004 when time had past and you had in the year prior Goldberg, Scott Steiner, Rob Van Dam, Booker T, Ric Flair, Hollywood Hogan, Eric Bischoff, Paul Heyman, Kevin Nash, and Scott Hall in featured spots, you had those fans who wanted to come back and new ones that grew up with the WWE that would feature those guys but also showcase new talent that debuted post merger in John Cena, Randy Orton, Batista, and Brock Lesnar and elevate guys like Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho who were midcarders with potential in WCW. As for acknowledging history, from a narrative standpoint, iykyk. We didn't need Benoit and Flair in 2004 to talk about Benoit being a Horsemen in WCW because to the fans who know, they know, and to the fans who don't, it takes away from the story that is being told. That said, Vince may never have acknowledged names directly on air but he never pretended that there wasn't wrestling outside the company. They just didn't talk about it because whats the point if you are appealing to an audience who would know nothing about it.
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Post by Cyno on Nov 5, 2023 12:59:06 GMT -5
This whole rationale falls apart because the only reason WWF became WWE is that they were legally obligated to by the panda lawsuit. They still would've been WWF to this day if they weren't forced to change the name of the company.
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Magnus the Magnificent
King Koopa
didn't want one.
I could write a book about what you don't know!
Posts: 12,518
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Post by Magnus the Magnificent on Nov 5, 2023 14:03:06 GMT -5
We need a Bruce Lies thread. It can't be as bad as the Network Ruthless Aggression series version. Updated every time he opens his mouth. He doesn't even need to say anything, the odds of it being a lie are pretty darn good.
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Post by James Fabiano on Nov 5, 2023 14:54:11 GMT -5
We need a Bruce Lies thread. It can't be as bad as the Network Ruthless Aggression series version. Updated every time he opens his mouth. He doesn't even need to say anything, the odds of it being a lie are pretty darn good. OK let's put it this way... His most outlandish lies. It's like Hogan always lies, but the Metallica one, anything to do with WM3, are the funniest.
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Post by sdoyle7798 on Nov 5, 2023 15:26:12 GMT -5
Not if you view it as a merger of all the territories under one umbrella. The WWF was a National wrestling promotion that went International and became Worldwide. The WWWF was a regional Northeast promotion that evolved into the National WWF. WWE is the final evolution of those two along with WCW that itself was a conglomerate of JCP, GCW, CWF, and Mid-South, all formerly NWA territories at different times and ECW that started as a territory in Philadelphia under the NWA banner as well. When the acquisition happened, a name change was appropriate, the WWF was never going to be the same company it had been in 82 when Vince bought it, 87 at its height with Hogan, 92, or 97 when the Attitude Era rose because that common rival in WCW/NWA was gone and wrestling had evolved from territories to Worldwide, National and Independent regional promotions. This might have worked in kayfabe had they actually emphasised it on TV and showed respect to the history of all those companies, selling it as a union of different companies under a name that didn't tell the viewers that "hey this is all entertainment". But instead they went with "get the F out". They even could have still done teh whole "get the F out" campaign if they had just chosen a better last initial (and the word to go with it). I think they had to keep the "WW" for rethe recoginition factor. At this point I am used to "WWE" but I HATED it at the time.
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Post by sdoyle7798 on Nov 5, 2023 15:28:46 GMT -5
We need a Bruce Lies thread. It can't be as bad as the Network Ruthless Aggression series version. Updated every time he opens his mouth. He doesn't even need to say anything, the odds of it being a lie are pretty darn good. His own brother said something to the effect of "If Bruce tells you that grass is green, you'd better go outside and check."
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Ultimo Gallos
Grimlock
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Posts: 14,620
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Post by Ultimo Gallos on Nov 5, 2023 15:53:45 GMT -5
Updated every time he opens his mouth. He doesn't even need to say anything, the odds of it being a lie are pretty darn good. His own brother said something to the effect of "If Bruce tells you that grass is green, you'd better go outside and check." Dr Tom has said that to many. Couple of years back when Bruce's podcast was maybe a year into it's run one of the local indies booked Dr Tom to do a semminar and work two matches,was this feds big 2 day show every spring. During the seminar on day two Dr Tom heard two of the younger guys talking about something Bruce had said on his podcast "Now he is my brother but if Bruce told ya the grass was green and the sky was blue you better go double check." I know at least one day of the seminar is up on Youtube. Will go look see if it is the one I saw and if you can hear Dr Tom tellinng the line about his brother.
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Post by Hit Girl on Nov 5, 2023 17:25:28 GMT -5
This might have worked in kayfabe had they actually emphasised it on TV and showed respect to the history of all those companies, selling it as a union of different companies under a name that didn't tell the viewers that "hey this is all entertainment". But instead they went with "get the F out". In that era, doing so wouldn't have made sense from a marketing end. By May of 2002, it had been 14 months since WCW and ECW ended. To say, "hey we are all three of these companies combined" wouldn't appeal to anybody. The ECW fans knew what Vince's product was, same for the old NWA territory that became WCW fans, and the WWF fans would have just groaned at the idea of the other two. Fandom was very different in that era. The NFL never even marketed the AFL heritage until 2009, 50 years after the merger. It took the NBA 30 years to even do the same with the ABA. Nostalgia wouldn't have sold in that time, especially when so close to its end. That said, by 2004 when time had past and you had in the year prior Goldberg, Scott Steiner, Rob Van Dam, Booker T, Ric Flair, Hollywood Hogan, Eric Bischoff, Paul Heyman, Kevin Nash, and Scott Hall in featured spots, you had those fans who wanted to come back and new ones that grew up with the WWE that would feature those guys but also showcase new talent that debuted post merger in John Cena, Randy Orton, Batista, and Brock Lesnar and elevate guys like Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho who were midcarders with potential in WCW. As for acknowledging history, from a narrative standpoint, iykyk. We didn't need Benoit and Flair in 2004 to talk about Benoit being a Horsemen in WCW because to the fans who know, they know, and to the fans who don't, it takes away from the story that is being told. That said, Vince may never have acknowledged names directly on air but he never pretended that there wasn't wrestling outside the company. They just didn't talk about it because whats the point if you are appealing to an audience who would know nothing about it. It's WWE spin to think their viewers didn't know anything else about wrestling outside of WWE. The fact they held onto some of WCW's titles and PPV names and even brought back ECW as a brand name shows that.
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Post by XaviersSS2015hair on Nov 5, 2023 17:31:01 GMT -5
What throws me off about WWE is a lot of people (including me) will still call it "the WWE" when it grammatically makes no sense. The World Wrestling Entertainment. Bret Hart calling it "the WCW" during his tenure there really had the last laugh all this time. This has driven me crazy since the name change. "In all of the the WWF" is grammatically correct. "In all of the WWE" sounds like you failed to complete elementary school English.
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Post by Savage Gambino on Nov 5, 2023 17:42:41 GMT -5
This whole rationale falls apart because the only reason WWF became WWE is that they were legally obligated to by the panda lawsuit. They still would've been WWF to this day if they weren't forced to change the name of the company. I always find it funny how the "bring back WWF" crowd seems to just causally ignore the fact that they legally can't call themselves that anymore. Feels like Marvel fans (pre-Disney/Fox merger) acting like they don't know why Wanda and Pietro Maximoff have parents that aren't Magneto in the MCU. Anyway, it kind of worked out, because they got into making movies shortly after that, so even in the context of kayfabe, WWE is a multimedia entertainment company. *shrugs*
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Nov 5, 2023 19:14:09 GMT -5
We need a Bruce Lies thread. It can't be as bad as the Network Ruthless Aggression series version. I dunno he was in a bunch of movies but he was still just one of several million actors in the rush for Brucesploitation... oh wait... nevermind. >_>
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Post by simplydurhamcalling on Nov 5, 2023 19:40:27 GMT -5
Totally agree with the WWF/E. Over 20 years later I still have to force myself to say E instead of F.
A successful one I guess would be Eastern Championship Wrestling to Extreme Championship Wrestling. I don't see them gaining the same level of popularity with that product under the Eastern name.
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 41,996
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Nov 5, 2023 19:46:47 GMT -5
This whole rationale falls apart because the only reason WWF became WWE is that they were legally obligated to by the panda lawsuit. They still would've been WWF to this day if they weren't forced to change the name of the company. I always find it funny how the "bring back WWF" crowd seems to just causally ignore the fact that they legally can't call themselves that anymore. Feels like Marvel fans (pre-Disney/Fox merger) acting like they don't know why Wanda and Pietro Maximoff have parents that aren't Magneto in the MCU. Anyway, it kind of worked out, because they got into making movies shortly after that, so even in the context of kayfabe, WWE is a multimedia entertainment company. *shrugs* Everyone knows they can’t and why, at least fans who actually care enough about wrestling. Losing WWF was all “I’m Vince McMahon dammit!!” And not anything Vince couldn’t have solved without a little money.
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Post by Cyno on Nov 5, 2023 19:50:44 GMT -5
Totally agree with the WWF/E. Over 20 years later I still have to force myself to say E instead of F. A successful one I guess would be Eastern Championship Wrestling to Extreme Championship Wrestling. I don't see them gaining the same level of popularity with that product under the Eastern name. Wasn't pre-Extreme ECW also an NWA affiliate? It's kind of funny how many wrestling promotions went to the next level of success by leaving the NWA behind.
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Post by The Barber on Nov 5, 2023 20:15:35 GMT -5
I always find it funny how the "bring back WWF" crowd seems to just causally ignore the fact that they legally can't call themselves that anymore. Feels like Marvel fans (pre-Disney/Fox merger) acting like they don't know why Wanda and Pietro Maximoff have parents that aren't Magneto in the MCU. Anyway, it kind of worked out, because they got into making movies shortly after that, so even in the context of kayfabe, WWE is a multimedia entertainment company. *shrugs* Everyone knows they can’t and why, at least fans who actually care enough about wrestling. Losing WWF was all “I’m Vince McMahon dammit!!” And not anything Vince couldn’t have solved without a little money. It wouldn't surprise me if, during the meeting the Fund had with the WWF, there was a *wink, wink, nudge, nudge* hinting at with money and Vince either ignored it or refused to pay because, like you typed, he was all "I'm Vince McMahon, dammit!" mode and nothing happened.
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 41,996
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Nov 5, 2023 20:21:59 GMT -5
Totally agree with the WWF/E. Over 20 years later I still have to force myself to say E instead of F. A successful one I guess would be Eastern Championship Wrestling to Extreme Championship Wrestling. I don't see them gaining the same level of popularity with that product under the Eastern name. Wasn't pre-Extreme ECW also an NWA affiliate? It's kind of funny how many wrestling promotions went to the next level of success by leaving the NWA behind. Yes. That’s the Night the Line Was Crossed and Shane Douglas’ infamous promo.
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MiLB Fan
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,411
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Post by MiLB Fan on Nov 5, 2023 20:45:20 GMT -5
Everyone knows they can’t and why, at least fans who actually care enough about wrestling. Losing WWF was all “I’m Vince McMahon dammit!!” And not anything Vince couldn’t have solved without a little money. It wouldn't surprise me if, during the meeting the Fund had with the WWF, there was a *wink, wink, nudge, nudge* hinting at with money and Vince either ignored it or refused to pay because, like you typed, he was all "I'm Vince McMahon, dammit!" mode and nothing happened. It probably went something like this:
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