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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 24, 2007 0:02:14 GMT -5
It's one of the most villified storylines in comics history. An interesting idea that just became a dragged out, convoluted clustersmurf; but if it was done right could it have worked?
I've heard some interviews from Howard Mackie who was one of the major players in the story who claims that the jumbled mess that lasted well over three years was only actually supposed to be about a six month storyline in which they brought Ben Reilly back, found out he was the real Peter, establish him in the role and allow the Pete that we've known for awhile and MJ to ride off into the sunset. Clear some cobwebs off the character and de-age him a bit by bringing him back to being the hard luck hero who had trouble with women he was.
It might've been interesting to see a Spidey who was re-learning his place in the Marvel Universe, forming new friendships and alliances, confronting 'new' villains who were unfamiliar to him, etc. And kind of bring him back to a 'younger' Spider-man. It's interesting, I got to thinking bout it today, people who aren't much younger than me have never known a world where Pete wasn't married. That's weird. Though given stuff that's being hinted at, who knows what lies ahead there?
On the other hand, would people have ever accepted that the character they've read about for over two decades wasn't the 'real' one? There may've always been backlash from that.
So whaddya think? If Marvel woulda just pulled the trigger and stuck with it and not drug it out for far too long and introduced more and more clones and made it like a bad sci fi flick with all the crap that got piled on with it, Could it have worked?
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erisi236
Fry's dog Seymour
... enjoys the rich, smooth taste of Camels.
Not good! Not good! Not good!
Posts: 21,904
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Post by erisi236 on Sept 24, 2007 0:09:53 GMT -5
Ah the Clone saga, the series that single handedly drove me away from Marvel for a Decade. When that Clone, robot, real version, whatever of Gwen Stacey stepped out of that pod... good grief.  So yeah, a nice simple story of Ben Reilly taking over the Spidey slot would have been a lot easier to swallow considering what was actually put out.  |
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The Raven
Hank Scorpio
Where The Raven flies, there's Jeopardy!: Sports Edition
Posts: 5,907 
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Post by The Raven on Sept 24, 2007 0:16:52 GMT -5
Now I've never actually read the saga, but it seems to me like the twist with Peter being the clone was what killed it for everybody, or at least that's what would have killed it for me.
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rra
King Koopa
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Post by rra on Sept 24, 2007 0:31:33 GMT -5
It's one of the most villified storylines in comics history. An interesting idea that just became a dragged out, convoluted clustersmurf; but if it was done right could it have worked? I've heard some interviews from Howard Mackie who was one of the major players in the story who claims that the jumbled mess that lasted well over three years was only actually supposed to be about a six month storyline in which they brought Ben Reilly back, found out he was the real Peter, establish him in the role and allow the Pete that we've known for awhile and MJ to ride off into the sunset. Clear some cobwebs off the character and de-age him a bit by bringing him back to being the hard luck hero who had trouble with women he was. It might've been interesting to see a Spidey who was re-learning his place in the Marvel Universe, forming new friendships and alliances, confronting 'new' villains who were unfamiliar to him, etc. And kind of bring him back to a 'younger' Spider-man. It's interesting, I got to thinking bout it today, people who aren't much younger than me have never known a world where Pete wasn't married. That's weird. Though given stuff that's being hinted at, who knows what lies ahead there? On the other hand, would people have ever accepted that the character they've read about for over two decades wasn't the 'real' one? There may've always been backlash from that. So whaddya think? If Marvel woulda just pulled the trigger and stuck with it and not drug it out for far too long and introduced more and more clones and made it like a bad sci fi flick with all the crap that got piled on with it, Could it have worked? You know what they should have done? DON'T make it that Reily was the "real" Peter Parker. Instead, he's only a clone of ole Pete, and the conflict being that Peter hates him for existing, like paranoia or his prejudice that someone could exist that is almost EXACTLY like him. I mean, if a mirror version was running around of YOU, how would you react to it? Probably not well. But eventually, they would end up fighting some common enemy, and with Parker married, much older into his 30s, and with that kid* on the way, he passes the Spider-Man mantle to Reily because Reily wants to redeem himself for the crimes he had earlier committed, he wants to mark his own individuality, and like James Robinson's awesome as hell STARMAN run, Peter and MJ go away from their city of birth into the sunset, and a new Spider-Man swings through New York.... *=Instead of that whole weird-ass Green Goblin/abduction nonsense before SPIDER-MAN was "rebooted". |
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rra
King Koopa
Posts: 10,145
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Post by rra on Sept 24, 2007 0:32:03 GMT -5
Now I've never actually read the saga, but it seems to me like the twist with Peter being the clone was what killed it for everybody, or at least that's what would have killed it for me. It killed it for me. |
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Dr. T is an alien
Patti Mayonnaise
Knows when to hold them, knows when to fold them
I've been found out!
Posts: 31,373
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Sept 24, 2007 1:05:51 GMT -5
It's one of the most villified storylines in comics history. An interesting idea that just became a dragged out, convoluted clustersmurf; but if it was done right could it have worked? I've heard some interviews from Howard Mackie who was one of the major players in the story who claims that the jumbled mess that lasted well over three years was only actually supposed to be about a six month storyline in which they brought Ben Reilly back, found out he was the real Peter, establish him in the role and allow the Pete that we've known for awhile and MJ to ride off into the sunset. Clear some cobwebs off the character and de-age him a bit by bringing him back to being the hard luck hero who had trouble with women he was. It might've been interesting to see a Spidey who was re-learning his place in the Marvel Universe, forming new friendships and alliances, confronting 'new' villains who were unfamiliar to him, etc. And kind of bring him back to a 'younger' Spider-man. It's interesting, I got to thinking bout it today, people who aren't much younger than me have never known a world where Pete wasn't married. That's weird. Though given stuff that's being hinted at, who knows what lies ahead there? On the other hand, would people have ever accepted that the character they've read about for over two decades wasn't the 'real' one? There may've always been backlash from that. So whaddya think? If Marvel woulda just pulled the trigger and stuck with it and not drug it out for far too long and introduced more and more clones and made it like a bad sci fi flick with all the crap that got piled on with it, Could it have worked? You know what they should have done? DON'T make it that Reily was the "real" Peter Parker. Instead, he's only a clone of ole Pete, and the conflict being that Peter hates him for existing, like paranoia or his prejudice that someone could exist that is almost EXACTLY like him. I mean, if a mirror version was running around of YOU, how would you react to it? Probably not well. But eventually, they would end up fighting some common enemy, and with Parker married, much older into his 30s, and with that kid* on the way, he passes the Spider-Man mantle to Reily because Reily wants to redeem himself for the crimes he had earlier committed, he wants to mark his own individuality, and like James Robinson's awesome as hell STARMAN run, Peter and MJ go away from their city of birth into the sunset, and a new Spider-Man swings through New York.... *=Instead of that whole weird-ass Green Goblin/abduction nonsense before SPIDER-MAN was "rebooted". I actually liked the clone saga- to a point. I think that you presented a much better alternative to what they actually did. |
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Post by Joe Neglia on Sept 24, 2007 1:10:52 GMT -5
Yes, it was originally intended for Ben to turn out to be the real Spider-Man (with no "oops, that wasn't for real" at the end).
Oh, man
Nevermind all the Kaine and Spidercide silliness
Everything was just gonna go away
Make it all like he was in 1967 again
Oh surely they would never try that again
Really for real
Everything just hitting rewind
Dude, no way they'd try that again
Ah, you know they know better
You just have to know it
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Post by Thread Pirate Roberts on Sept 24, 2007 1:12:36 GMT -5
Yes, it was originally intended for Ben to turn out to be the real Spider-Man (with no "oops, that wasn't for real" at the end). Oh, man Nevermind all the Kaine and Spidercide silliness Everything was just gonna go away Make it all like he was in 1967 again Oh surely they would never try that again Really for real Everything just hitting rewind Dude, no way they'd try that again Ah, you know they know better You just have to know it Something makes me think you have inside info on something you won't tell us. |
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rra
King Koopa
Posts: 10,145
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Post by rra on Sept 24, 2007 1:26:02 GMT -5
You know what they should have done? DON'T make it that Reily was the "real" Peter Parker. Instead, he's only a clone of ole Pete, and the conflict being that Peter hates him for existing, like paranoia or his prejudice that someone could exist that is almost EXACTLY like him. I mean, if a mirror version was running around of YOU, how would you react to it? Probably not well. But eventually, they would end up fighting some common enemy, and with Parker married, much older into his 30s, and with that kid* on the way, he passes the Spider-Man mantle to Reily because Reily wants to redeem himself for the crimes he had earlier committed, he wants to mark his own individuality, and like James Robinson's awesome as hell STARMAN run, Peter and MJ go away from their city of birth into the sunset, and a new Spider-Man swings through New York.... *=Instead of that whole weird-ass Green Goblin/abduction nonsense before SPIDER-MAN was "rebooted". I actually liked the clone saga- to a point. I think that you presented a much better alternative to what they actually did. Why thank you. You know why I quit reading comics? Probably because I realized that the heroes would never die or age or whatever. Not that necessarily the reason (I mean look at Bond movies) but maybe its the fact that the dramatic storypoints or events that happen in every goddamn mega-storyline these days.....they're then taken back. Take when DC had that whole piss-poor way of how they killed off Hal Jordan, with him going all psycho and whatever. I hated how they did it, but whatever. They let a new Lantern, Kyle Ratner, become the new Lantern. Maybe at times too emo for my taste, but I liked how Morrison would write this Ratner-GL as someone who would ask for advice from Superman or Batman or whatever older, more experienced hero. Why I like it? Because it makes the universe as changing. Once Supes and Bats were young, now they're aging and they will die and retire before they go, with people taking over their mantles, in the cyclical nature that is history. Then, Jordan is written BACK FROM THE DEAD*.......whatever. Ideally, I prefer real time in comics. That is, the characters age in real time. JUDGE DREDD has, and still, aging in real time....so we have a Dredd that was in his 30s in the 1970s, but now is in his 60s, an older Dredd with his own regrets, the pros and cons of older age, and so forth. Or at least let heroes be like the rest of us, in that they do grow up. They fall in love, get married or not, they aren't as fast, not as sharp mentally, maybe they have kids or not, maybe they decide to quit the hero business for the family, or not. Maybe thats why I've liked how DC has done overall with the Wally West incarnation of The Flash. You know, which I prefer over cheap killing of characters for the sake of a cheap sales bump or whatever, and then the company's convulted response to "fix" it. *=Really, why bother killing someone off in the comics these days? They're always brought back. Hell, Jason Todd came back. |
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Dr. T is an alien
Patti Mayonnaise
Knows when to hold them, knows when to fold them
I've been found out!
Posts: 31,373
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Sept 24, 2007 1:30:20 GMT -5
I actually liked the clone saga- to a point. I think that you presented a much better alternative to what they actually did. Why thank you. You know why I quit reading comics? Probably because I realized that the heroes would never die or age or whatever. Not that necessarily the reason (I mean look at Bond movies) but maybe its the fact that the dramatic storypoints or events that happen in every goddamn mega-storyline these days.....they're then taken back. Take when DC had that whole piss-poor way of how they killed off Hal Jordan, with him going all psycho and whatever. I hated how they did it, but whatever. They let a new Lantern, Kyle Ratner, become the new Lantern. Maybe at times too emo for my taste, but I liked how Morrison would write this Ratner-GL as someone who would ask for advice from Superman or Batman or whatever older, more experienced hero. Why I like it? Because it makes the universe as changing. Once Supes and Bats were young, now they're aging and they will die and retire before they go, with people taking over their mantles, in the cyclical nature that is history. Then, Jordan is written BACK FROM THE DEAD*.......whatever. Ideally, I prefer real time in comics. That is, the characters age in real time. JUDGE DREDD has, and still, aging in real time....so we have a Dredd that was in his 30s in the 1970s, but now is in his 60s, an older Dredd with his own regrets, the pros and cons of older age, and so forth. Or at least let heroes be like the rest of us, in that they do grow up. They fall in love, get married or not, they aren't as fast, not as sharp mentally, maybe they have kids or not, maybe they decide to quit the hero business for the family, or not. Maybe thats why I've liked how DC has done overall with the Wally West incarnation of The Flash. You know, which I prefer over cheap killing of characters for the sake of a cheap sales bump or whatever, and then the company's convulted response to "fix" it. *=Really, why bother killing someone off in the comics these days? They're always brought back. Hell, Jason Todd came back. At least it was supposed to be a freak out moment that Jason Todd came back, as opposed to being par for the course. |
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rra
King Koopa
Posts: 10,145
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Post by rra on Sept 24, 2007 1:42:14 GMT -5
Why thank you. You know why I quit reading comics? Probably because I realized that the heroes would never die or age or whatever. Not that necessarily the reason (I mean look at Bond movies) but maybe its the fact that the dramatic storypoints or events that happen in every goddamn mega-storyline these days.....they're then taken back. Take when DC had that whole piss-poor way of how they killed off Hal Jordan, with him going all psycho and whatever. I hated how they did it, but whatever. They let a new Lantern, Kyle Ratner, become the new Lantern. Maybe at times too emo for my taste, but I liked how Morrison would write this Ratner-GL as someone who would ask for advice from Superman or Batman or whatever older, more experienced hero. Why I like it? Because it makes the universe as changing. Once Supes and Bats were young, now they're aging and they will die and retire before they go, with people taking over their mantles, in the cyclical nature that is history. Then, Jordan is written BACK FROM THE DEAD*.......whatever. Ideally, I prefer real time in comics. That is, the characters age in real time. JUDGE DREDD has, and still, aging in real time....so we have a Dredd that was in his 30s in the 1970s, but now is in his 60s, an older Dredd with his own regrets, the pros and cons of older age, and so forth. Or at least let heroes be like the rest of us, in that they do grow up. They fall in love, get married or not, they aren't as fast, not as sharp mentally, maybe they have kids or not, maybe they decide to quit the hero business for the family, or not. Maybe thats why I've liked how DC has done overall with the Wally West incarnation of The Flash. You know, which I prefer over cheap killing of characters for the sake of a cheap sales bump or whatever, and then the company's convulted response to "fix" it. *=Really, why bother killing someone off in the comics these days? They're always brought back. Hell, Jason Todd came back. At least it was supposed to be a freak out moment that Jason Todd came back, as opposed to being par for the course. That's true. |
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Post by Joe Neglia on Sept 24, 2007 1:46:44 GMT -5
Bucky.
Buuuuuuuuuuuuccccccckkkkkkyyyyyyyyyyyy.
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Post by Maidpool w/ Cleaning Action on Sept 24, 2007 1:51:03 GMT -5
Yes, it was originally intended for Ben to turn out to be the real Spider-Man (with no "oops, that wasn't for real" at the end). Oh, man Nevermind all the Kaine and Spidercide silliness Everything was just gonna go away Make it all like he was in 1967 again Oh surely they would never try that again Really for real Everything just hitting rewind Dude, no way they'd try that again Ah, you know they know better You just have to know it Something makes me think you have inside info on something you won't tell us. You don't have to work for Marvel to know what's coming... I'll just say that. And say that despite Spider being one of my favorites, junk like this is why I don't buy his books. |
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Post by Thread Pirate Roberts on Sept 24, 2007 2:05:19 GMT -5
Bucky. Buuuuuuuuuuuuccccccckkkkkkyyyyyyyyyyyy. Are you Mocking me? |
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Post by Joe Neglia on Sept 24, 2007 2:05:59 GMT -5
Not this particular time, no.
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Post by Maidpool w/ Cleaning Action on Sept 24, 2007 2:07:34 GMT -5
I don't even know what Madison is yelling about Bucky for.
I'll be honest with you guys... the way Bucky came back... didn't piss me off the way so many back-from-the-grave stories do.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Sept 24, 2007 2:09:43 GMT -5
I don't even know what Madison is yelling about Bucky for. *=Really, why bother killing someone off in the comics these days? They're always brought back. Hell, Jason Todd came back. Bucky. Buuuuuuuuuuuuccccccckkkkkkyyyyyyyyyyyy. |
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Post by Thread Pirate Roberts on Sept 24, 2007 2:11:34 GMT -5
I don't even know what Madison is yelling about Bucky for. Bucky. Buuuuuuuuuuuuccccccckkkkkkyyyyyyyyyyyy. Ok that makes more sense. I have been mocked that way before. |
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Post by Maidpool w/ Cleaning Action on Sept 24, 2007 2:15:29 GMT -5
I don't even know what Madison is yelling about Bucky for. Bucky. Buuuuuuuuuuuuccccccckkkkkkyyyyyyyyyyyy. Thanks for the Cliffs Notes, Madison. I didn't bother reading all those other Great Walls of Text, so I was a little off on the conversation. |
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 24, 2007 13:30:58 GMT -5
Although as I keep telling people, you can decide not to read superhero stuff and still read comics.. they're not synonymous..
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Hunt. Hunt.
