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Post by Joe Neglia on Oct 14, 2020 14:20:16 GMT -5
Ok, time to stomp on in here and make a few things clear before we continue: This thread was made so that people could talk about one of the biggest things to hit planet Earth all at once since the literal end of World War II. It's also a space where posters are welcomed to vent some of their fears and frustrations about the current circumstances, and as that often involves policy decisions and governmental actions, we've given this thread a good deal of leeway concerning posts that invoke certain names, political movements, and other things that are considered inseparable from the pandemic and the global response.
However, we're getting a ton of reported posts now about people taking things too far on this front. Maybe it's my fault since I haven't been in this thread nearly as much as I was early on in the pandemic, and maybe it's my fault that that what's acceptable right now and what isn't hasn't been made more clear, but enough's enough, so here's the deal:
It's fine to mention politicians and political parties or organizations by name when discussing matters relevant to the pandemic, but when referring to politicians, political parties, or organizations, don't attach a personal value judgment to them. Stop calling certain political figures by obvious derogatory nicknames and acting like that means you're posting within the rules; stop referring to their supporters by insulting names, even if they frustrate you; hell, leave their weird hairstyles out of it, because while a head of government's hair being odd might be relevant in the US and the UK at the moment, it is not relevant to discussing the pandemic.
I get why this one is difficult, and might feel like walking a tightrope at times: for example, a story came out recently detailing that Donald Trump was the single biggest and most potent source of disinformation concerning COVID-19 in the entirety of English-language media, and telling people not to discuss that in a thread about COVID-19 would probably be asinine. Many political figures have politicized many aspects of the pandemic and the response to it, and I understand how much that intertwines things and makes it hard to separate what's acceptable from what's not here, but when in doubt, focus on discussing the pandemic itself.
Hell, I know some of you have lost loved ones in all of this, and poor responses must feel like deep insults at this stage; again, I get it, and I know some of you are just venting, but there are limits we need to keep. When we start getting a bunch of reported posts because someone's referring to a politician by a clearly insulting name, or someone's labeling their supporters a "cult", etc., it doesn't matter if anybody agrees with you or not about your stance, it's just not contributing anything to what we're trying to do here.
Bringing up that an elected leader has instituted some kind of policy, and offering your feelings about that policy, or discussing the science behind it? Ok, we can handle that. Bringing that up and adding that said elected leader is a piece of shit or that only idiots listen to them or whatever? No, we're not doing that. Cut that shit out now. You can say "this policy is dangerous" without adding "and the person who signed off on it is a murderous asshole".
Not that they need my blessing, but mods are going to be giving out warnings more readily in this thread if the unacceptable stuff keeps getting posted. If you're in doubt about something you want to say being acceptable, ask for clarification before posting it. Otherwise we'll have to lock a thread that's discussing a major worldwide event, which we'd rather not do, and likely have to start banning people, which we'd really rather not do.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jul 23, 2020 8:26:35 GMT -5
Hey guys, just giving everyone a heads up that we're making a tweak to the WWE section of the board, as we feel it's long overdue to change the board from "Attitude Era through Current" to just straight up "Current".
If you're curious about the thinking on all of this, it's pretty simple: WWE's overall presentation hasn't changed too much since the Attitude Era in terms of staging, camera work, etc., so it felt pretty safe to make that a starting point for this part of the forum. However, enough time has passed and it's high time we put a "classic wrestling" tag on the Attitude and Ruthless Aggression eras. Henceforth, threads dedicated to discussion of these times should go in the (W)rest of Wrestling section, as that allows for discussion of older/extinct promotions and classic WWF, already.
Our new starting point for what constitutes "current" here will be January 4, 2010: the day that NXT was created. There was some thought of making it 2008 given that was the beginning of the "PG era", but that felt a little too nebulous, so let's use 2010, instead, just seems easier to remember. Don't worry too much: if you make a thread about something from the past, can't remember when exactly it happened, and it turns out it's a topic from 2009 or something you're not in trouble or anything, but please keep the guideline in mind so mods don't have to take time to move threads from one sub-forum to another too often.
I'll leave this up as a sticky for a little while, hopefully just long enough that everyone and any newbies we get in the coming couple of months know what the deal is. Please also refer to the edited descriptive text for this board and for (W)rest of Wrestling on the main page if you ever need a reminder.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jul 1, 2020 17:13:30 GMT -5
In times like this, the way the thread has gone, Madison Carter would be sticking his nose in and locking the thread as fast he could. He just missed out on this one! Then allow me to post from the very admin account Madison held to tell you this one time: I said in my announcement that our golden rule here is to treat anybody here with decency and respect, and as far as I'm concerned Madison is still a part of this community. You do not get to shit talk someone, particularly when they are not here, and you're not to do it again. Ever.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jun 26, 2020 5:01:52 GMT -5
I do have a question. How come messages I had from Madison have now changed and said they are from Joe Neglia? Because the simplest way to transfer admin powers from Madison to Joe was to take over Madison's account. Yeah, it's pretty much that there is one main admin account, and they want whomever the main admin is to put their real name on it...literally in case something happens to the main admin in real life and they have to check identities and whatnot in order to make a change without that person being around. Very uplifting, I know. I've turned my HMark account into an admin account, as well, but I did have to change this one to have my name on it, so past correspondences with Madison will have my name on them. It's weird, I agree, and makes me a little uncomfortable, but that's what Proboards seems to want. EDIT: For clarity purposes, I'm including an attachment of what my inbox currently looks like. Madison made sure to erase his correspondences before the transfer happened, so if you had private chats with him or shared any concerns/personal information you'd like kept secret, everything is alright. Attachments:
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jun 25, 2020 16:04:45 GMT -5
You sound like a great choice and all, but I can't be the only one disappointed in this not being a huge heel promo? Ok, hang on: "Madison left because of YOU PEOPLE." "These boards are a mess, and it's because of EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU." "The posters here are losers, just like YOUR LOCAL SPORTS TEAM." ...Sorry, I was in a rush, I couldn't get something whipped up so I had to rent a script from Bruce Pritchard.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jun 25, 2020 14:15:56 GMT -5
...maybe? I honestly don't know. Is it really objectification? Where is the line between appreciating beautiful people and objectifying them? Probably when people got really, REALLY obsessed with some of the women. I haven't watched in a while but I remember when AJ Lee was really popular hear and...yikes. Part of it is indeed the history we've had with moments where a particular woman became an object of apparent obsession for too many people, which often made for some very uncomfortable overtones. The other part of it is that moderating something that substantial in terms of the sizes of those threads can be quite a headache for an array of reasons.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jun 25, 2020 11:41:49 GMT -5
It's only risky because the weekly TV format AEW has can force them to go through more tag match ups leading up to a tournament than NJPW's schedule does, so it wouldn't feel as fresh. They'd likely have to make the field a bit smaller than NJPW usually does, though they'd at least have the freedom to invite some non-regular teams in, too, so that could help.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jun 25, 2020 11:29:37 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I'm afraid I can not recognize your authority until I know whether you consider a hot dog a sandwich. For or against, it does not matter, but it's an issue that's caused too much strife and divisiveness on these boards for it to be run by a fence-sitter. As someone who takes pretty strong stances on a multitude of contentious issues...that's one I've never, ever taken a solid stance on. I'll tell you what I have taken a solid stance on that infuriates many people who live in my immediate region: that while brown/spicy mustard is always preferable to yellow on a hot dog, it is also true that there is nothing wrong with ketchup on a hot dog, bunch of New York City sauerkraut-shoveling elitsts!
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jun 25, 2020 7:42:24 GMT -5
So will you be the sort of General Manager who puts people who have wronged you in handicap steel cage matches? No, but based on my theater history I am the very model of a modern Major General, so that should work. EDIT: I've seen a couple people here and now in messages asking about things like discussions involving politics. Those who know me are fully aware that I'm a highly political person, and when I teach civics a key lesson I try to instruct is that literally everything in life has some kind of a political component to it, so I get the desire, but we're not likely to change too much on that front. The chief goal we go by is avoiding overtly partisan politics: outside of specially designated threads usually reserved for election nights, nobody here is particularly interested in hearing your direct opinion about the people currently occupying, say, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue or 10 Downing Street, or having things devolve into "my side is better than yours" or whatever. Still, it's not like we haven't allowed discussion of sensitive issues here before; just the nature of the current Speaking Out movement fits that bill, and we've had threads in years past on matters such as the Ferguson protests and various fraught moments within the realms of gaming or comics. We just ask for some patience as we, as a staff, figure out if there's a proper way to navigate things on certain topics in what is clearly a socially and politically stressful year.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jun 24, 2020 20:55:22 GMT -5
No. Yes? Look, don't you have a question about the ongoing viral pandemic that could kill us all? Will the virus kill the Grimace?
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jun 24, 2020 20:27:26 GMT -5
Will this new administration finally bring the Hamburglar to justice? No. Yes? Look, don't you have a question about the ongoing viral pandemic that could kill us all?
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jun 24, 2020 20:00:48 GMT -5
I was hoping it was gonna be VR headsets for everyone and we'd all be posting using our minds in a 4D augmented reality 5th dimension but just being nice to everyone is cool too I guess. ... He knows too much.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jun 24, 2020 17:43:41 GMT -5
Ready to help you any way I can, boss! *salutes* Not as much as I can! I get lickspittles now?
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jun 24, 2020 17:42:07 GMT -5
Seems pretty cut and dry to me. "Man, (insert wrestler name here) is so hot" = okay "Man, (insert wrestler name here and then something vaguely vulgar about them that you like) = not okay. Honestly, that's pretty close, I'd say. Part of treating other posters with dignity is respecting that the way we speak/type, even if our intentions are harmless, still create a perception of a place that can be welcoming or, if we're not careful, the opposite. I certainly wouldn't tell anyone "post like your mother posts here", but, I don't know, how about like your sister does, and she's really cool so you know you can joke around but you also don't want her to feel sketched out and unsafe...listen, I don't have an actual sister, so I don't know what I'm saying, but yeah, it's about recognizing that the way we express ourselves reflects on us as a community, as well as individuals. I'm not going anywhere with a gun in my hand.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jun 24, 2020 16:53:54 GMT -5
Well, um...hi, everyone. Read any good books, lately?
Ok: suffice it to say, I did not start this week thinking I'd be in this position. At all. Yet, here we are, and it's hopefully something that will end up being a positive as we move forward. Let me go over a few possible questions people might have right now; if you'd like to ask more below I apologize if I don't have answers to everything at the moment, but I'll do my best to at least provide a basic introduction:
Who are you? My name is Joe Neglia, as my handle states. I'm a long time poster, having signed up on the old, old board back in 2004. I'm from the United States and live on the east coast, am in my 30s, own my own apartment in the city, and lovingly yet sometimes begrudgingly take care of a very cute puppy and cat. I grew up watching the WWF of the early 90s, WCW of the late 90s, then at different times over the years was one of the board's biggest cheerleaders for first Ring of Honor, and lately New Japan Pro Wrestling. I'm a social studies nerd, a musician, a part time writer, and dabbling voice actor, who's long been an enthusiast for sports, road trips (road trips to see sports?), singing, craft beer, old school Disney theme parks and, if we go far enough back in my life, dinosaurs.
So yeah, HMark? That's me.
Where's Madison? Madison has personal reasons for taking a leave right now, the extent of which I am not personally familiar with outside of him needing time to deal with an ailment. His recent thread, in which he confessed to an event 12 years ago that he felt was an abuse of his status as administrator, is not actually the main impetus behind him stepping away right now. Rather, he was already thinking of taking a leave, but did not wish to do so without first saying what he felt was necessary about the incident, especially in light of the current circumstances surrounding the pro wrestling world with the Speaking Out movement. I apologize in advance, but I'll likely be deleting that thread soon; not because it's an attempt to hide anything, but because now that we've switched over to me as admin, it appears with my real name on the thread, which might create some confusion. If there's an alternative method to save it, I'll certainly consider it.
I hope Madison will still be around in some capacity, but I cannot say when/if that will be.
So...what does this change? In terms of day to day operations? My hope on that front is not too much. However, there are things we can stand to improve on, including aspects of the board where much of the staff and I feel there has been a good deal of progress over the years, but that we can always look to build on.
Let me start with this: there's a reason why I've posted on this board as long as I have, and it's a reason I hear many of you speak of whenever such a conversation comes up - this is a board that actually does the work to moderate itself and the kinds and tones of conversations we have here. It might seem overbearing at times, but when I look around the internet, particularly at sites that discuss the various pop cultural ephemera this site specializes in (be it wrestling, comics, film, video games, etc.), I see a lot of places that are lackadaisical about posters being disrespectful, particularly towards one another, often creating a negative feedback loop that encourages fighting, pointless arguments, and a generally toxic tone.
Here, meanwhile, I'm very proud of the fact that while it's been a culture that's taken many years to build, we've created a space to discuss these topics without creating overt obstacles for anyone who wishes to engage. For a wrestling board, I feel we do a good job minimizing the "company war" style of posting that can so typify discussion in many other places, allowing fans of any promotion to have a place to talk and share their thoughts without things devolving into us vs. them. Hell, I'd say I'm most proud of the fact that this board stands out as one that has strong representation from the LGBTQ+ community; the fact we have members who have felt comfortable starting threads for the purpose of coming out as trans, for example, is emblematic of the kind of inclusiveness I want us to continue and build on.
We've been lucky enough to have a strong moderation staff over the years, and it's my hope that they'll continue being here doing the good job they're known for doing. Keeping this site a more positive, inclusive space is a team effort, given some of the voices out there who would seek to undo that, and I don't think I would have agreed to take this position if I didn't have confidence in the group I've worked alongside for so many years now.
But seriously, c'mon...what's really changing? Alright, maybe a couple of things, but it has less to do with how this board operates and more with goals I'd like to see us pursue, especially in the trying times that has been, well, the entirety of the year 2020.
While I'm definitely proud of our overall tone and inclusiveness here, recent events have certainly put a spotlight on an issue that I've long felt is something we haven't dealt with as well as we could; not because we didn't want to, not because of things that were directly the fault of anyone in charge here, but perhaps due to us just lacking the tools necessary to properly address the matter, or in some cases blindness to an issue that was not always immediately visible.
The issue is this: I feel we've lost too many women posters here over the years, and to me that's a problem that warrants addressing. As I said, there are steps we've taken over the years to try and tamp down on the perception of the forum being an uncomfortable space for women, be they cis or trans or however they might identify; the most obvious has been undoing the old "women of (insert wrestling company here)" threads, which too often took on a tone that put across a boys' club image of this place.
This is no one person's fault, I believe: it's long been the culture of the "geekier" side of the internet, and it's something many fandoms and sites have only recently begun to reckon with, long overdue as it may be, and unfortunately many of us take that negative culture for granted sometimes, even as we're not always aware of its effects. However, there have been direct claims from multiple women who do or have posted here that they have, at various times, been made to deal with uncomfortable or downright creepy messages, or other behaviors that cast a cloud over the proceedings here. I don't have much firsthand experience with this, I admit; I have not tried to engage with women posters in this way in the past, and many of the worst stories have not yet been shared with me, though the things I have been told of late have been eye-opening, for sure. I look back on my own past as a poster and mod here and wonder where I might've done better, or where I might've failed to create that comfortable place all of our posters are entitled to, and I want to take that very seriously if I am now going to be in a position of authority.
So here's what I'm envisioning, at least early on, as well as what I am not looking for: -I am NOT telling posters they can't express that they find, say, a female wrestler attractive. That's always been fine, and will continue to be fine. -I am NOT telling posters they can't have honest, open, mature, and civil conversations that deal with matters of sexuality, at least to a degree. This is still mostly a PG-13 site, keep in mind, but there's ways to discuss who we are without going into too many details or steering conversations in a direction that isn't proper for the community at large. -What I AM looking for is for posters to keep our golden rule in mind: that everyone who posts here in good faith is to be treated with respect and dignity. This obviously goes for threads where there are differences of opinions, as it's always been, but this extends to how we treat one another in other contexts, as well. I'll put this as bluntly as I can: if a poster here feels they have been harassed, bullied, or treated in an inappropriate manner, particularly if it's in a sexual way, then I want them to reach out to myself or to any of our mods, and if we look into the matter and find there to be something amiss, be it due to there being receipts of inappropriate behavior or any reasonable suspicion, action on the matter will be quick and decisive, with banning being the most likely outcome.
This does not apply to disagreements or arguments; sometimes tempers flare, we're all only human. I would ask this not apply to one-off circumstances unless they are egregious enough to warrant a report, which is certainly up to the discretion of the person doing the reporting. I do ask that people who feel they can offer a better perspective than I (a straight, cis white guy who makes a reasonably comfortable living) can feel free to reach out and discuss other ideas they feel might be constructive to these ends, particularly those who might feel nervous about speaking on such matters publicly. If you reach out to me or our moderators, our mission is to abide by that golden rule and not to judge you; we might not be able to implement every idea even if we want to, but we want to make sure those that need it get a fair chance to be heard.
Ok, that was some heavy stuff. How about something lighter: is this the end of your time here as HMark? Honestly, I hope not. My intention is to use this account for administrative purposes: announcements, making people mods, handling issues in a more official capacity, etc. You're welcome to message it as necessary regarding such matters.
However, I started here as a regular poster, and a poster I still intend to be; hence, in most casual interactions and discussions you'll like still see me here as HMark.
I don't know, it'd just feel weird otherwise.
Thank you all for your time, patience, and willingness to read this mini-tome I've written (what else is new). I hope we have a smooth transition and that I can fulfill the role I've been asked to step into in a way that's beneficial to all of us. How about one more question?
How much are they paying you for this?! Not a damn thing. I need a better agent.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jun 23, 2020 21:38:13 GMT -5
With the above out of the way, I'm going to keep this part as short as possible.
Something in my personal life happened recently - nothing criminal or controversial or even 'gross' - so that when the Speaking Out thing started, I realized I wanted to get that out so whatever pieces from it needed to fall could fall. So I posted it, and I do not regret doing so. What I do regret is hurting some of you in the process. I wanted to open a dialogue and get some things said, and...well, they were said. I admit I did not quite anticipate what has entailed afterward, but I knew going in what I was doing.
This board has meant the world to me, in all of its various mutations going back to the Delphi forum. I have done what I can to make it better than it was the previous day, the previous year. I've stumbled, I've tripped but I did what I believed best.
The "something" I mentioned earlier, the thing that made it easier for me to bring this out to light, already had me thinking on how this place should/would keep going and I intended to wait until then. But I hear you, and I am going to do what's best for the boards now instead of then. With this post, I am stepping down as administrator, and stepping away from the boards. There will be a day or two for a new admin to take their place (there is a process that requires help from ProBoards support), but effective immediately, this will be my last post here.
I do thank you all. Thank you for saying what needed to be said. Thank you for the years together. Please take care of this place. Please take care of yourselves.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jun 23, 2020 21:38:07 GMT -5
It's like there's nothing wrong calling a sex chat hotline but If you used your works phone to do it, you'd expect to get a serious rap over the knuckles for it. I'm not sure that's an entirely apt comparison to some sort of degree. This has never been a business for me; I've never seen a dime in the years this place or the main site has operated. For whatever that is worth, I feel that should be said. I just find it really, really sad that people willingly sent nude photos of themselves to a stranger on the internet for the sake of a coloured name on a message board. Just... what? Ehh. No one involved were strangers. We were friends years before that, and we all remain in some form of contact with one another to this day. Obviously not "that" form of contact, but they were and are friends, before, during and after. I feel like posting that and saying you have no intention of stepping down is the wrong move. I did not say I had no intention of stepping down, just not at this time. With that said...
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jun 23, 2020 12:47:53 GMT -5
This isn't the place for more WWE/AEW stuff.
In regards to lucha, I/we have made something like two dozen threads since February regarding various passings. Most, not all but most, have been older, retired workers in their 60s or above. This isn't necessarily about current workers and shows, though I'm sure that's not helping.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jun 23, 2020 12:07:12 GMT -5
So are you planning to step down as an admin then? No, not at this time. I do assure you, though, that day is coming, for reasons unrelated to this. I personally would like to see this moreso for the constant closing of threads when he feels it's going in a direction he may not agree with or it's getting off topic of the original post. Maybe it's because he's home due to the covid closures but it's seems like it's gotten progressively worse during the past few months. Though the issue in this thread surely doesn't compare to what was done by names I'm about to mention the nature of the actions (thread closures for reasons mentioned) do seem to go hand in hand with some names mentioned in threads such as Bill Cosby, Jim Cornette, Austin Aries as the best examples who have the holier than though attitude, look down on the masses and are quick point out flaws in everyone else. I love this site and hope this doesn't result in a banishment or restriction of posting. Madison's knowledge of wrestling is amazing but the censorship is beyond what I've seen on any other board combined whether it was wrestling, tv, movies, politics especially when he has the rest of his fingers pointing at himself while he points one finger at board members in disgust at their postings. It's really not fair to the board members for one person to have that power. I only have ever noticed him as the sole mod on here. Is there anyone else? We are all adults and I think have showed how well we can get alone, agree to disagree at worst and bring up topics that really garner each other's interest. This is by far the best wrestling board I've been on in years, maybe ever but again, the constant thread closures are getting out of hand and of course, now are there are much deeper issues that are coming to light. This is not the thread for this.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jun 23, 2020 11:05:43 GMT -5
Firstly, I am always uncomfortable with people making unsolicited public apologies/confessions of this nature. To be honest my view is there is no motivation for making a confession like this other than to try and relieve guilt that the confessor is carrying around. So I will not pat you on the back for “coming clean” and want to make it clear that this should not absolve you of any guilt you feel. That remains your cross to bear. More importantly though, the apology you are making should not be made in public to the faceless members of your website but instead to those directly impacted by your actions. From what you say you have also been in touch with them privately - and it is for them to decide whether they wish to forgive you for this and no one else. I would also highlight that it was not appropriate to tell everyone on the board that some of those impacted sent you personal pictures. The abuse of power in asking people to do so was the basis of your statement, there was no need to let it be known some of those impacted did so. They could already be feeling scarred by the whole thing, so letting that aspect be known more widely is not helpful to them in any way. I have been a member of this website since 2005, so I have been here since before the split with the other website. The reason I like this board is it is (from my experience) a much less confrontational environment than other wrestling boards out there. It has always been a welcome escape away from the ills of the world. I am however deeply unsettled to learn that maybe it was not the safe environment I thought it was all along. I am not in a position to hold you to account for your actions - nor should I be, it is your website after all - but I do think you and your staff need to ask some serious questions about what has gone before and what this board needs to be moving forward. I miss what I thought this place was, and hope you can find a way to restore that. Thank you for posting this. I want to say a few things in regards to it. I'm not doing this to solicit pats on the back or congratulations for coming clean. That's not the point. I knew going in this would not paint me in a great light. This isn't to cleanse myself of guilt - that doesn't and won't go away. Even if those involved are okay with what happened, it was a situation that I cannot go forward with and not be hypocritical on without being honest about it. Was this the best route to go? Maybe not. Maybe so. I can only do what I feel is the right thing to do. We at the board have long sought to be a place welcoming and comfortable to everyone, especially after we went off on our own, but while we've made what I feel are tremendous strides in that direction, there's always more work to be done on that front. I understand there's a lot of hurt being felt in this thread, and I accept it and take responsibility for it. I can't be the guy saying "we need to clean wrestling up" if I don't confront my own transgressions, no matter how minor or deviant others see them. What this place was like 15 years ago, 12 years ago and 10 years isn't what it is now. We've taken a lot of steps in the right direction, I feel, but I'm not the one to make that judgement ultimately. At the end of the day, that has to be all of you.
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