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Post by corndog on Feb 12, 2019 16:02:15 GMT -5
Is he still doing that cornball "Breathe with the Switchblade" stuff? Because....if so, yeah, I can see MSG ticket buyers having SERIOUS buyers remorse to see that goober main event a card that was sold on Okada and The Elite. That's his catchphrase, so...yeah? I'm really curious how many people actually watched his US title matches or G1 run, because I'm not seeing where some of you guys are coming from, like, at all.I would understand the outrage if this happened at the same time last year, as White clearly wasn't ready. But he has progressed immensely. Most of the outrage seems to be from part-time/Elite fans. Full time New Japan fans saw the story progress and really this win, while somewhat surprising, shouldn't be a complete surprise. In fact if White lost, it would actually feel like the win over Okada at WK and his prior buildup would have been wasted. However, what I don't understand is the outrage. There wasn't this outrage when Kenny took over Bullet Club from AJ, while Kenny was a Junior and had a very silly character. People gave Kenny a chance. Also, what did they expect? Kenny to keep the belt even though he would be out of contract for the next defense!? It's not like New Japan screwed the Elite, they just got a very good opportunity and they took it. I don't blame them for leaving and Kenny even has it in his contract that he is allowed to work New Japan when he wants and can. So we will most likely see Kenny return. But as a part timer, you just can't put the belt on him and they needed someone to fill the spot.
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Post by corndog on Feb 12, 2019 15:50:56 GMT -5
Is he still doing that cornball "Breathe with the Switchblade" stuff? Because....if so, yeah, I can see MSG ticket buyers having SERIOUS buyers remorse to see that goober main event a card that was sold on Okada and The Elite. Okada, Naito and Tanahashi were the only wrestlers named in advance to be there. Expecting the Elite was somewhat foolish considering they were known to be out of contract for this show and even then many thought there was a chance they would be gone.
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Post by corndog on Feb 12, 2019 15:30:07 GMT -5
Most of this video points out the obvious for the current story of CHAOS, but something sticks out at 17:27. Kelly talks about the six man match with Goto,Ishii and Ospreay vs Jeff Cobb,Nagata and KUSHIDA from New Year's Dash. By this time, Yano, Okada and YOSHI-HASHI are all working with Sekigun. But Goto, Ishii and Ospreay were incredibly aggressive in this match, even more so than normal. I was aware of the aggressiveness at the time, but I didn't really think about it more until this video put it all together with the part of other members working with Sekigun.
Obviously we saw a change in Ospreay at Wrestle Kingdom, and Goto/Ishii are most likely frustrated by their recent title losses, but I think there is more to this. Also at New Beginnings we saw Sho/Yoh demand a title shot in a heelish fashion that seems unlike them. My theory is that these members of CHAOS and possibly more, might not be on board with Okada and Yoshi-Hashi "going soft" and teaming with the Sekigun. I think we could possible see CHAOS go back to it's roots as an aggressive strong style unit that is more heelish, although still technically playing by the rules. This would also mean that Okada could be excommunicated from CHAOS and replaced as leader, putting him in Sekigun and taking Tanahashi's place as it's top star.
Just a theory, but I wondered what everyone else thought that follows New Japan?
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Post by corndog on Feb 12, 2019 14:57:55 GMT -5
I don't know, man, you're allowed to like or dislike any performer you want to, obviously, but I really don't know what you're arguing here. White's cut as hell, has a pretty distinctive look, has already wrestled a ton of excellent matches in the company, draws huge heat, can talk, etc. Doesn't mean you have to like the particular way he does any of those things, but the guy's really good at what he does, and only 26. As for what "the title should be", in the end there's truth to the idea that the belt is a prop; it's meant to work in whatever arc or storyline you want it to. Okada won the belt in a shocker in 2012; it's arguable that he "wasn't ready" then, but it put him on the map and helped tell the story of a young, cocky up and comer who was naturally gifted going against the fighting spirit-driven ace in Tanahashi. Clearly, there's a different story to be told right now, though White will certainly play the role of the egotistical upstart. Well and if you all like it thats super fine. I tried to understand but now we pretty much all just look crazier to the other person since nothing was gained. I am not saying I like or dislike him. I am saying that he is really untalented compared to the entire roster, hell push Rocky Romero he can atleast talk and he wrestles on the same level as White. We agree that we dont agree on this guy at all. I think I just watched NJPW because of the Elite and a couple of guys like Okada. Because the booking is insane. I dont think I agreed with a single decision since Dominion where Kenny won the title. Maybe its just time for a break. If you don't like him, that is fine and actually the point. But to say he is untalented is pretty ridiculous. He's a smart wrestler, stuff like constantly getting out of position for Slingblade looked sloppy, because we are so used to wrestler looking rehearsed and people being in the right place for certain moves, but he actually did it on purpose to avoid the moves. Also, he purposely didn't get into striking battles with Tanahashi because that would be to Tanahashi's advantage, but these are things we expect and often want to see in matches. Basically, unlike Omega, he isn't trying to break the Meltzer scale by having aesthetically pleasing matches, he's working matches that are based on his character and story. He knew he couldn't out wrestle or out will Tanahashi, but he could outsmart him. The fact that the guy puts his own twist on most of the moves he does, proves he isn't "untalented", he just doesn't fit the model we expect for a top star in New Japan, a work horse, but he is incredibly innovative and the most original wrestler in the ring I have seen in a long time.
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Post by corndog on Feb 11, 2019 20:44:58 GMT -5
I saw that with Naito, will be interesting if they bend the rules for him. Naito or Ibushi facing Jay at MSG would be a fun match. I think Naito has to wait until Dominion though. It would be an interesting story to let him in tho if anything it would seem more like a vehicle to set up his next challenger I think the cup favorites are Ibushi and Okada at this point and I don't expect Naito to get a title shot until Dominion as they have kept him and White apart
If Okada wins the Cup, I would want him to lose the title match and extend his redemption storyline. Both Okada and Ibushi would be over huge as faces in MSG, but I think Ibushi would be a better choice for the US show, as he is more popular here and has a bit more exposure to US fans because of the CWC and his work with the Elite.
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Post by corndog on Feb 11, 2019 20:41:51 GMT -5
I would disagree on him not being over Also as mentioned in this thread since day 1 they brought him back they have hyped him up big as the biggest prospect since Okada. He first 2-3 months were rough but once the summer came he hit his stride which lead to him losing the title to Juice and moving on to the feud with Okada
Gedo has made it no secret he sees him as a big deal and everyone knew once he beat Okada at WK and Tana won the belt that it was a strong chance White was on his way to winning it as well He's basically mirroring young Okada from having Gedo as a manager, being a cocky but good son of a bitch, and now beating Tana for the title His reign won't last past Dominion imo but everyone sees the writing on the wall
I didn’t say he wasn’t over, but there are def 5-10 acts more over than him. Let’s play Devil’s Advocate here. You say Gedo sees him as a big deal and was going to make him he top guy. Why does NJPW seeing a guy they want in that spot and making sure he gets there not get the backlash other companies get when doing that? As others have said, the past speaks for itself. But I will add another dynamic, they will admit failure as well. At one point Yujiro Takahashi had an IWGP title match against Tanahashi and he didn't live up to the push, he fell down the card to the point of no return. Naito was pushed too soon and won the G1, the fans crapped on it, leading to where Naito's character is today. So the difference is if it fails, they will adjust, they won't continue to shove it down your throat like WWE did with Reigns.
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Post by corndog on Feb 11, 2019 19:34:02 GMT -5
There's no Sakura Genesis this year. It's NJC, then the G1 Supercard and then it's the Wrestling Dontaku/Hi no Kuni shows. Yea, I would assume MSG They are playing it up big this year with even Naito wanting to enter even though he is IC Champ
I saw that with Naito, will be interesting if they bend the rules for him. Naito or Ibushi facing Jay at MSG would be a fun match. I think Naito has to wait until Dominion though.
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Post by corndog on Feb 11, 2019 18:52:42 GMT -5
Considering Ibushi announced himself for the New Japan Cup, I'm guessing he wins that and gets his title shot is at Sakura Genesis. There's no Sakura Genesis this year. It's NJC, then the G1 Supercard and then it's the Wrestling Dontaku/Hi no Kuni shows. Oh.., so the New Japan Cup winner gets the title shot at MSG?
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Post by corndog on Feb 11, 2019 18:46:14 GMT -5
So him vs Jay White at MSG? Considering Ibushi announced himself for the New Japan Cup, I'm guessing he wins that and gets his title shot is at Sakura Genesis.
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Post by corndog on Feb 11, 2019 16:11:03 GMT -5
This is definitely thread worthy, especially since a lot of us expected him to join AEW. Also, as I said in the AEW thread, word is he signed a two year contract via Reddit, but nothing official yet.
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Post by corndog on Feb 11, 2019 16:08:09 GMT -5
Question for more well versed NJPW fans: Why is there no backlash against White from fans? He doesn’t seem to be in the top 5 most over people on the roster, maybe not top 10. Yet, he has been slammed over- beating Omega, Okada, and Tanahashi. Good storytelling, while White has been pushed since returning from excursion, he has been building to this moment throughout 2018. Also, it means his win over Okada at Wrestle Kingdom wasn't wasted. He's improved immensely since returning. His character has been really good since early last year, but in his last few big matches, his ring work has started to catch up with his character work. While he beat Omega, Okada, and Tanahashi, they still go to tell their own story. His win over Omega was actually overshadowed by the Golden Lover's reunion. His wins over Okada have been more about Okada needing to find himself after losing the belt and then being betrayed by Gedo, he is now on a path to redemption. Now Tanahashi had a very short title reign, but it's clear his body has been betraying him for a while. While many would have liked to see Tanahashi hold the title longer, he had his feel good moment by winning the belt and getting to be "the Ace" one more time at Wrestle Kingdom. Also, most of us knew Tanahashi's run would be a transitional one, as he is took physically broken down to be champion for a long period of time. Also, we didn't expect White to be Omega. Omega's goal was to have the greatest, critically acclaimed matches. Jay White's goal is tell a story and get people to hate him and he's damn good at it. He's not out there trying to have 15 star matches, but today he told a great story in the ring without doing completely insane moves and having the workrate of junior heavyweights on speed. Also, Omega was pushed right after AJ Styles left and at the beginning of 2016, no one expected him to be a believable G1 winner and main eventing the Tokyo Dome in the next year. So this has happened before, Jay White is just much younger. The final point, he's 26 and he's already pretty darn good. Just imagine where he will be in a few years if he keeps progressing at the current rate?
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Post by corndog on Feb 11, 2019 15:13:58 GMT -5
To get back on topic, Jay White has improved greatly as of late. He's been having much better matches than when he first returned. His US title match with Juice and WK match with Okada were both very good, this match with Tanahashi was very good storytelling. I will venture to say White is IMO, more ready for the title than Okada was his first time. It's not a stretch to say he's more advanced than Okada was at this point when he won the title Now you can say that's thanks to Okada having some twist and turns but Jay just looks more polished than Okada was. Of course in saying that Okada essentially won the title Year 1 in his rainmaker phase while Jay White is in Year 2 Either way, you can see why they have been hyping him up as the biggest prospect since Okada
Okada was younger and just returned from excursion, while White has been back for over a year now. So I am not saying White is better or more advanced at the same point in his career. In year one, White still had some work to do, the difference between now and the first Tanahashi match is night and day.
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Post by corndog on Feb 11, 2019 15:07:12 GMT -5
I am hearing that Ibushi signed a two year contract with New Japan. But nothing confirmed yet.
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Post by corndog on Feb 11, 2019 14:48:24 GMT -5
To get back on topic, Jay White has improved greatly as of late. He's been having much better matches than when he first returned. His US title match with Juice and WK match with Okada were both very good, this match with Tanahashi was very good storytelling. I will venture to say White is IMO, more ready for the title than Okada was his first time.
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Post by corndog on Feb 11, 2019 13:39:16 GMT -5
Hey, maybe AEW will run MSG at some point in the future and then you can go back and actually see the talent you wanted in the first place? I'm glad to not have bothered with Honor Club at the moment since to get the PPVs without paying extra you have to do some year long commitment. Honestly I don't get the White thing. He's decent, can be great at times, but at this point you ask yourself "What would this guy be in WWE?" At least with the gaijins you can do that easily. Kenny Omega would almost certainly be the WWE champion if he went there. AJ Styles has been the WWE champion. I doubt White would be. What's odd is that the idea of Bullet Club is that they've been a heel NWO style group in Japan, but are popular antiheroes in America and Europe. White is not a popular antihero, he's just a total heel that's hated everywhere. Add in that this version of the BC has several native Japanese guys in it, including the company's main booker and associate booker (Gedo, Jado), Ishimori, and of course Yujiro (who has been in it for years). So apparently the idea of it being an outsider gaijin group is gone. But if that isn't what the group is...then what is it? The original premise of the Bullet Club was gaijins that went through the New Japan dojo, which still stands true to an extent with G.O.D, Bad Luck Fale and White. It didn't become outsiders until AJ Styles and Gallows joined the group, then continued with the addition of the Elite. It also wasn't the "cool heels" until Styles joined as well. So really Bullet Club has gone back more to it's roots.
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Post by corndog on Feb 11, 2019 13:34:44 GMT -5
Looks like it wasn't. But I have to admit, I am surprised as well. Looks like Ibushi might finally be taking this wrestling thing seriously. Oh wow the madman actually signed a contract. I never thought that'd happen. Well never mind then he's right on his way to getting the IWGP title. The translator wasn't very good at today's show, but it seems that may be the case. He said that New Japan is home, he will be there for years to come and that he would return for the New Japan Cup.
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Post by corndog on Feb 11, 2019 13:33:36 GMT -5
Didn't they do PPV for All In? I imagine that is the route they go, at least for the first show. But you would think eventually they would move to a streaming service. Although, there is a while until Double or Nothing, so they could set that up in time.
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Post by corndog on Feb 11, 2019 13:05:42 GMT -5
I thought he was going to the E, Ibushi will probably be Kennys new feud after he defeats Jericho.
He doesn't want to sign a contract and get nailed down to anywhere, so WWE was always out and his options in New Japan always had a ceiling on them you could tell they were super happy to lift if only he'd sign. AEW is kind of a no brainer for him.Looks like it wasn't. But I have to admit, I am surprised as well. Looks like Ibushi might finally be taking this wrestling thing seriously.
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Post by corndog on Feb 11, 2019 13:04:04 GMT -5
Good show for the most part. I enjoyed the opener and second match. Looks like that was Tenzan's last chance to convince Iizuka to tag with him.
Outside of the EVIL/SANADA vs Shota/Yoshida match, the tag matches were just kind of there.
Ibushi staying actually surprised me quite a bit and made me happy. The translator wasn't very good, so I was wondering if he signed an actual contract?
Taguchi really is an underrated wrestler and can work a damn good match when he's serious. Probably my favorite of the show.
Okada vs Bad Luck Fale was much better than expected. Personally, my favorite match between the two, some good reversals and I was shocked that Okada got Red Ink off.
White vs Tanahashi was a good story. Another match that was IMO, the best between those two. I love that the finish came out of nowhere. Tanahashi has terrible luck at New Beginnings lately. Interested to see where this title reign goes and how long it lasts. Thankfully, he will get some fresh opponents.
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Post by corndog on Feb 11, 2019 12:54:33 GMT -5
Probably should stay away from wrestling sites/boards if you don’t have any results from shows spoiled for a late watch. No, you're right. I'm not mad at you or anyone. Just frustrated at myself. Shoulda known better. At least your brother didn't spoil it by text right before you watched the match. I even stayed off the internet to avoid spoilers.
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