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Post by angryfan on Dec 29, 2007 5:22:05 GMT -5
Triple H just feels very forced. It's obvious he thinks he's the greatest thing since sliced bread out there, but his attempts at trying to prove it just fall on deaf ears with me. It's that stupid pose that ruins it. "Argh! Look at how great I am!" Give me a break. Trips is a damn fine worker, I don't begrudge him that one bit. However, when "creative" feels the need to send Flair out on Smack Down, when Trips doesn't work on the show and Flair hasn't been there in months, for the sole purpose of putting Trips over as "the best going", what does that say? If you're already over, and an established top guy, why have your opponent, regardless of how much he may respect you, either in kayfabe or real life, why does he need to put him over to the hilt? Would JR and King fawning over Trips not be enough? Would the 15 minute promos we got weekly for about three years not be enough? The main events on top of main events? Put over the match, fine, put over his talent, but why give him a verbal BJ on a show that he NEVER appears on outside of video clips? Does this do anything to put over the SD roster? Does it help anyone in the company become established as a star? Does it even tell us something we haven't heard before? If not, it's unnecessary. I have no issue with the man's skills in the ring, or the fact that he can cut a promo. I won't even call him a belt hog, since he's had the title in his 12 years with the company only about two months longer than Cena has (in less than half the time). But really, if he's "the best going", are the fans so stupid that they'd forget if they went a week or two without being reminded?
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salTy
El Dandy
Posts: 8,425
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Post by salTy on Dec 29, 2007 9:59:35 GMT -5
Triple H just feels very forced. It's obvious he thinks he's the greatest thing since sliced bread out there, but his attempts at trying to prove it just fall on deaf ears with me. It's that stupid pose that ruins it. "Argh! Look at how great I am!" Give me a break. Trips is a damn fine worker, I don't begrudge him that one bit. However, when "creative" feels the need to send Flair out on Smack Down, when Trips doesn't work on the show and Flair hasn't been there in months, for the sole purpose of putting Trips over as "the best going", what does that say? If you're already over, and an established top guy, why have your opponent, regardless of how much he may respect you, either in kayfabe or real life, why does he need to put him over to the hilt? Would JR and King fawning over Trips not be enough? Would the 15 minute promos we got weekly for about three years not be enough? The main events on top of main events? Put over the match, fine, put over his talent, but why give him a verbal BJ on a show that he NEVER appears on outside of video clips? Does this do anything to put over the SD roster? Does it help anyone in the company become established as a star? Does it even tell us something we haven't heard before? If not, it's unnecessary. I have no issue with the man's skills in the ring, or the fact that he can cut a promo. I won't even call him a belt hog, since he's had the title in his 12 years with the company only about two months longer than Cena has (in less than half the time). But really, if he's "the best going", are the fans so stupid that they'd forget if they went a week or two without being reminded? It's like if he didn't put himself over so much we'd probably sing his praises more. If there's one thing I can't stand, it's a self-hyping egomaniac. It's the same reason I can't buy Jay-Z records.
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Post by Powder/The Professor on Dec 29, 2007 12:34:56 GMT -5
Yeah, right now.....he probably is.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,274
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Post by The Ichi on Dec 29, 2007 16:00:27 GMT -5
He really isn't, lol.
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Post by PTBartman on Dec 29, 2007 18:27:16 GMT -5
my list from start to finish would go more like hbk undertaker hhh .. .. .. (everyone else) .. .. big dick johnson jbl That's cold dude
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2007 18:34:10 GMT -5
I've been around for only a couple years so i'm a young guy but still i say Jeff Hardy is my third favourite wrestler overall out of the entire roster. #1 is HBK #2 is Taker and neither of them work full time so right now you could say Jeff is my favourite wrestler. I consider him above HHH and while i know he may not be as good a wrestler as some... he is more entertaining to me therefore i like him more not to discard your opinion, but theres a big difference between saying someones your favorite and saying someones the best, and this topic is asking if hhh is the 'best' on the roster, can you honestly say without bias that hardy is better than him? no i cant i never said he was the best wrestler just that he was my favourite. Hardy just entertains me more then HHH does so i like him better.
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Post by steamboat1 on Dec 29, 2007 18:37:21 GMT -5
I cant put over HHH as the best on the roster as long as Shawn Michaels is around, but I will say with the exception of the borefest that was 03-04, his career has been very good.
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Post by Dr. Marzvon Zombie M.D. on Dec 29, 2007 19:00:54 GMT -5
He is a very good wrestler no doubt, I will give him that, before the first quad rip anyways. But he NEVER deserved the pushes he got, he is not in the league of hogan, rock, austin, shawn,hart,savage etc, hell he is the reason i stopped watching wwf when he first won the belt, snoorefest and this is coming from a guy who still watched during the diesel run but at least Diesel was entertaining, minus the dx stuff he has been, THAT DAMN BORING!!!!!
Hell at mania 18 the building started to empty during his match, no one cared once we got to see Hogan vs the Rock, i was hoping to see Chris keep the belt but knew deep down he wouldn'r. His match may of gotten a better reaction if the game didn't have to go on last, guess that backfired on him. That 03, 04 run was just him using his wife to stay on top. He was upper midcard/main event challenger at best, not a world title holder.
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Post by big nasty on Dec 29, 2007 20:51:03 GMT -5
best on the roster? maybe, and its kinda sad if he is.
his promos are boring as hell to me, and predictable, too.
he is good in the ring.
it just feels like they want him to be in the hogan/rock class, and he really isnt close, at all.
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Post by imisswwf on Dec 29, 2007 22:31:49 GMT -5
*looks at thread title*
no.
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Post by thesunbeast on Dec 29, 2007 22:35:49 GMT -5
Not one of us has the compitence to truley rate someone as a wrestler, we can only rate our level of entertainment, and If you're a smart mark or you read spoilers, then you can't even go by your entertainment level. Even I am willing to admit that, after 19 years. There was a time when I thought I understood everything that was going on in the ring, but now I know better.
There is just so much that goes on in the ring that's underappreciated by the fans that it truely is disgusting. I do not call myself an expert, and will refuse to untill the day I step into the ring. Anyone who calls themselves an expert that isn't at an elite level of the business is a joke.
With that said, I say that the reason why HHH has been used consistenly as a major star is because of trust. How he obtained that trust will be up for debate, but the single contributing factor of HHH gaining the trust of the McMahons is that he's consistent in everything he does. When someone is consistent, you know what to expect from them. All the top greats had it, and there are others that are a gamble.
Booker T, for example, is a guy, like alot of guys, that will be the best you have ever seen one day, but then be so so the next. You can have a guy that you're 98% sure will make you money, but if you have another guy that's 100%, you have to go with him.
Also, HHH's personality is another factor in gaining trust from the WWE, being an absolute professional. I think Vince allowed HHH to date Stephanie in the first place because of that trust, not that it's my business. He dosen't drink, he's not a partyer, and while everyone else was hitting the bars at night, HHH was watching wrestling tapes in the hotel, being dedicated to the business.
When someone says they believe that so and so is better than HHH, they usually have this one particular match in mind or that other particular match, but you really have to go by everything, all matches, all promos, acting skills, ect...A wrester could be hit or miss, and people won't know. A great wrestler will have you wanting to see their match beforehand, not nodding in approval after the fact. If John Cena was in the midcard, then I guess alot of people will be watching the midcard, and leaving after his match. That's how you move up to main event status.
Based off of what I know, The locker room, including the Undertaker and Hulk Hogan, consider HHH the best. I say it's because of a multitude of factors, but the main thing is that he's od schoolas far as painting a picture for the audience, has a great mind for the business, and has impecible timing.
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Haulk
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,298
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Post by Haulk on Dec 29, 2007 23:53:24 GMT -5
Cena is selling more merch than Triple H.
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Post by lildude8218 on Dec 30, 2007 1:33:40 GMT -5
Fact remains though, if you're asked to name a great HBK or Undertaker match, you can immediate thing of tons. If you're asked to think back to a great Hogan or Rock promo, maybe come to mind. With HHH, neither are possible. He's not awful, he's not great. He's very average at everything. Just a heck of a politian with a great mind for packaging and marketing. Overall, he is a mediocre wrestler who is boring on the mic. And that's my two cents. Ladder match with Rocky Last Man Standing with Flair 3 Stages of Hell with Austin Last Man Standing with Orton WM20 Main Event I won't bother continuing.
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Post by wrestlecrapcrap on Dec 30, 2007 9:59:42 GMT -5
Triple H just feels very forced. It's obvious he thinks he's the greatest thing since sliced bread out there, but his attempts at trying to prove it just fall on deaf ears with me. It's that stupid pose that ruins it. "Argh! Look at how great I am!" Give me a break. Trips is a damn fine worker, I don't begrudge him that one bit. However, when "creative" feels the need to send Flair out on Smack Down, when Trips doesn't work on the show and Flair hasn't been there in months, for the sole purpose of putting Trips over as "the best going", what does that say? If you're already over, and an established top guy, why have your opponent, regardless of how much he may respect you, either in kayfabe or real life, why does he need to put him over to the hilt? Would JR and King fawning over Trips not be enough? Would the 15 minute promos we got weekly for about three years not be enough? The main events on top of main events? Put over the match, fine, put over his talent, but why give him a verbal BJ on a show that he NEVER appears on outside of video clips? Does this do anything to put over the SD roster? Does it help anyone in the company become established as a star? Does it even tell us something we haven't heard before? If not, it's unnecessary. I have no issue with the man's skills in the ring, or the fact that he can cut a promo. I won't even call him a belt hog, since he's had the title in his 12 years with the company only about two months longer than Cena has (in less than half the time). But really, if he's "the best going", are the fans so stupid that they'd forget if they went a week or two without being reminded? I'm sorry but the promo made perfect sense to me. It doesn't have to hype anyone on the SD roster to be needed, it wasn't even to 'put him over more'. That promo served 2 purposes. Firstly it was the last chance they had of hyping the NYE Raw with a decent promo. A montage on TTTT or a best of episode doesn't count. This was one of the participants hyping the match in the last chance they would have had to do so. Secondly, it furthers the story telling surrounding the match and the angle. People could have heard the match announced and thought 'Well that's easy to get out of - all HHH needs to do is lay down and Flair's career can continue!'. Flair's promo has now eliminated that possbility, and created the interest into how far HHH will go. Flair has said HHH will bring his best, so the match has been put over. The story has been furthered. Perfect sense to do so. So, the match was hyped (by Flair, so yes it was better than anything JR and King would have done) and the story progressed, making it a match worth setting. What is the problem here? It wasn't about getting HHH more over with a live crowd, it was about making the match make more sense, making HHH's actions make more sense, and make it more worthwhile to tune in to see.
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Post by wrestlecrapcrap on Dec 30, 2007 10:15:43 GMT -5
I'm not sure. He may have gotten a few title reigns as he has some talent and "the look", but I know he wouldn't have been booked as THE BEST in the industry for the past 7 years, which is exactly what's happened. I just can't fathom how a guy who's never been a huge draw has been booked as an equal talent to Hogan and Austin. Then I remember he's married to the boss' daughter and it all becomes crystal clear. Dude, the guy was a huge star and a consistent main eventer way before he married Steph. Here comes a contoversial statement: The number of times you hold a title in pro wrestling are only accolades in storylines unless they were really trying to give the ball to someone else. People are always saying, "yeah, he was good enough for 2 title reigns (they usually say "run") but not 10" As if to say that WWE really thinks the guy with the most titles under his belt (no pun intended) by the end of their career is the best. You hold a title as a Flagship, or to loose it to the flagship, that's all. The flagship holds the title, and he looses it to someone else. If that guy can't out perform or out draw the flagship, then the flagship gets the belt back and looses it to someone else. This can happen 30 times. So the real argument is wethor or not HHH was ever good enough to be flagship. Well, here's the thing. HHH is among the last of a dying breed. The guys I feel were better than HHH while he was there were Austin, Rock, HBK, Flair, Hogan, and Undertaker. HBK and Undertaker are laced with nagging injuries and are part time. Flair is way past his prime, and Austin and Rock left, and hogan wrestle's once a year, so that leaves HHH. See, here's the thing. People were waiting for a while for HHH to marry Steph, just so they can say that he "married the bosses daughter" as the only way to be the best, but there was one problem, he didn't marry her right away. So they used "he's dating the bosses daughter" as if to say that Steph ran to Vince (a billionare business owner mind you) and said "hey dad, can you push my boyfriend please?" and sinse HHH is "really only mid-card material" Vince must have said "Well Steph, he's not the best here, and I can make more money with someone else, but If it makes you happy, I guess I'll loose money and push him for the next few years". Now, HHH and Steph got married after HHH had been in the main event for a long time, and now people want to say that he married his way to the top, because it's an old cleshe'. But when they weren't married, it was because they were dating. See, there's a hidden agenda here. It's because HHH was a good heel and was good at getting people mad at him in storylines, but the thing is, is that the "marks" that were mad at him also knew backstage stuff (because they care/ed more about the personal stuff than storylines) and used that to hate him with. You talk so much sense it's unbelievable. I find it amazing that people still believe that HHH got where he is because he married Steph and - as you say - got her to run to Daddy and asked him to push her boyfriend for the next couple of years. People are incredibly naive to think that the owner of a huge, multi national corporation would act so carelessly and that decisions are just made on a whim like that. The other argument against HHH is that he wanted to prove he was better than Austin/Rock with his 'reign of terror' in 03. Does this argument also hold up for JBL wanting to prove he was better than them just because he had a long title reign? The WWE was coming out of a period where the belt changed hands an incredible amount of times, and they were in the process of restablishing the prestige of their titles. Shock horror - one of the remaining biggest draws of their ratings-glory days is given the belt. Of course it is all to do with HHH holding people down and wanting to prove something, and absolutely nothing to do with him being one of the guys that still holds the most mass appeal - as well as being the guy that can play heel - and therefore long reigning heel champ - extremely well. I'd argue that if Booker or RVD - the two guys that people claim HHH held down - were given medium to long term title reigns that ratings would have dropped further and people would be wondering why HHH wasn't in the picture. Even now, after jobbing countless times in the last 2 years to put over the company's new stars, you still get people going for example 'Oh, HHH was ok with jobbing to Jeff because he wants to be the one to end Flair's career or win the rumble.' I mean jesus christ, it can't possibly be that he was totally fine with jobbing - as he has done tonnes of times in the past 2 years, there MUST be some ulterior motive, because of course HHH has the power to insert himself in any match he pleases just because he is married to the bosses daughter. Here's a thought. Maybe Paul Levesque doesn't actually care as much about how good his on screen character looks as people think. Maybe he can't just click his fingers and get anything he wants - and he probably knows that and doesn't expect to either. Maybe decisions about big matches are made after careful consideration and not just on the say so of one guy.
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BHB
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,778
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Post by BHB on Dec 30, 2007 10:48:31 GMT -5
HHH rarely has above average matches IMO, especially in the last few years.
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J is Justice
Wade Wilson
Will now be grateful.
Hi.
Posts: 28,026
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Post by J is Justice on Dec 30, 2007 11:23:36 GMT -5
HHH rarely has above average matches IMO, especially in the last few years. Agreed
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Post by thesunbeast on Dec 30, 2007 17:10:17 GMT -5
HHH rarely has above average matches IMO, especially in the last few years. Agreed Last few years: HHH vs HBK 3 stages of hell HHH vs Ric Flair Raw Flair appreciation night HHH vs HBK hell in a cell HHH vs Booker T WM19 (ending could have been better) HHH vs Kevin Nash hell in a cell HHH vs HBK Royal Rumble 2004 last man standing HHH/HBK/Chris Benoit WM 20 HHH/HBK/Benoit backlash 2004 HHH vs chris Benoit Iron man match 2004 HHH vs Chris Benoit Vengeance 2004 HHH vs Randy Orton RR 2005 elimination chaimber NYR 2005 HHH vs Batista hell in a cell HHH vs Eugene steel cage (watch it) HHH vs John Cena WM 22 HHH vs Umaga first match on Raw HHH/HBK vs Rated RKO HHH/HBK vs Rated RKO NYR 2007 HHH vs Umaga oct 2007 HHH vs Randy Orton last man standing 2007 Survivor Searies 2007 HHH vs Jeff Hardy armegeddon 2007 others: HHH vs Mankind steel cage SummerSlam 97 HHH vs Sgt. Slaughter boot camp match HHH vs the Rock ladder match HHH vs Austin vs Mankind SummerSlam 99 HHH vs Rock vs Big Show Survivor Series 99 HHH vs Vince McMahon armaggeddon 99 HHH vs The Rock w HBK as ref (HBK superkick the Rock) HHH vs Cactus Jack RR 00 HHH vs Cactus Jack hell in a cell HHH vs The Rock backlash 00 HHH vs the Rock Ironman HHH vs Rock vs Kurt Angle SummerSlam 00 HHH vs Kurt Angle 00 Armaggeddon 2000 (Austin kill HHH in car) HHH vs Austin 3 stages of hell NWO 01 HHH vs Undertaker WM17 HHH vs Hulk Hogan backlash 2002 Elimination chaimber Survivor Series 2002
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Porter
Bubba Ho-Tep
Posts: 505
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Post by Porter on Dec 30, 2007 17:42:41 GMT -5
Fact remains though, if you're asked to name a great HBK or Undertaker match, you can immediate thing of tons. If you're asked to think back to a great Hogan or Rock promo, maybe come to mind. With HHH, neither are possible. He's not awful, he's not great. He's very average at everything. Just a heck of a politian with a great mind for packaging and marketing. Overall, he is a mediocre wrestler who is boring on the mic. And that's my two cents. Ladder match with Rocky Last Man Standing with Flair 3 Stages of Hell with Austin Last Man Standing with Orton WM20 Main Event I won't bother continuing. So basically he needs a gimmick to be watchable in the ring?
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BHB
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,778
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Post by BHB on Dec 30, 2007 17:48:33 GMT -5
Last few years: HHH vs HBK 3 stages of hell HHH vs Ric Flair Raw Flair appreciation night HHH vs HBK Royal Rumble 2004 last man standing These were good. HHH vs HBK hell in a cell This was good although far too long. HHH vs Booker T WM19 (ending could have been better) HHH vs Kevin Nash hell in a cell Didn't enjoy these personally. HHH/HBK/Chris Benoit WM 20 HHH/HBK/Benoit backlash 2004 HHH vs chris Benoit Iron man match 2004 HHH vs Chris Benoit Vengeance 2004 Somone had great matches with Benoit and HBK? Shocking. HHH vs Randy Orton RR 2005 elimination chaimber NYR 2005 HHH vs Batista hell in a cell So he had three good matches in a year? And he's supposed to be the best in the company? Decent match although very slow and plodding. It seems to me HHH mistakes lack of any kind of speed and being boring as "good psychology". This wasn't a patch on the NYR match IMO. HHH/HBK vs Rated RKO NYR 2007 HHH vs Umaga oct 2007 HHH vs Randy Orton last man standing 2007 Survivor Searies 2007 HHH vs Jeff Hardy armegeddon 2007 These were all very very average IMO. HHH vs Mankind steel cage SummerSlam 97 HHH vs Sgt. Slaughter boot camp match HHH vs the Rock ladder match HHH vs Austin vs Mankind SummerSlam 99 HHH vs Rock vs Big Show Survivor Series 99 HHH vs Vince McMahon armaggeddon 99 HHH vs The Rock w HBK as ref (HBK superkick the Rock) HHH vs Cactus Jack RR 00 HHH vs Cactus Jack hell in a cell HHH vs The Rock backlash 00 HHH vs the Rock Ironman HHH vs Rock vs Kurt Angle SummerSlam 00 HHH vs Kurt Angle 00 Armaggeddon 2000 (Austin kill HHH in car) HHH vs Austin 3 stages of hell NWO 01 HHH vs Undertaker WM17 I agree with these, and they were all pre quad tear. He was on fire in 2000 and deserved to win wrestler of the year. Since the injury he's been very average, and been more hype and looks than anything else.
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