|
Post by BlackHoleMark on Jan 3, 2008 1:43:47 GMT -5
I also think it's important to talk about the fact that Nigel has severely injured two people with the Rebound Lariat, Jimmy Rave and Johnny Fairplay. As a wrestler, (I'm am not one) I would expect a level of safety going into a match. Mistakes happen, but I hate to say that the rash of injuries in Nigel's matches, whether to himself or others, is a bit scary. I think another problem is that often times the line between reality and "show" is real thin. There are times when I see matches or watch matches and I say to myself, "Wow, that looks like it really hurt," but the truth is, the wrestlers take precautions to protect themselves, and often suffer minimal if any damage. On the other hand, I think there are times when things look painful that really are (like Nigel's head into the ringpost), and the fans assume that the wrestlers have taken the precautions in order to make the move or moves safe. I think we've reached a weird point where we want the matches to look as "real" and "cool" as possible, most often the citing of MMA-esque moves, but we've also seen a growth of people who look at the Benoit tragedy and kinda tug the opposite way. Mistakes happen as we all know, but I think sooner or later, a middle ground will have to be found in between dangerous looking and actually dangerous. Finally, I wonder about the two show thing being bad or unsafe. If you look at the roster as a whole, I think most of the wrestlers came out of the weekend relatively unharmed. Danielson, Aries, Morishima, Hero, Claudio, and the Briscoes all wrestled upper-card or main event matches both nights, and nothing has been reported on injuries for any of them. There may be minor injuries, but nothing too bad. I think a previous poster said it, but guys like Danielson know how to wrestle matches that are exciting, while at the same time being relatively "safe" for both parties. Part of me thinks that the rash of injuries to Nigel is maybe nerves about being "the guy" in ROH. I think he knows that this may be his only run with the belt, and he wants to impress people every time, and he has become overzealous. There's my response. I posted on page 1 and Nigel's response didn't change my opinion.
|
|
|
Post by slasher911 on Jan 3, 2008 1:44:40 GMT -5
If you made a list of the things in professional wrestling that were unnecessary, we'd be back to Grecco-Roman times. Wrestling is about standing out - they needed a spot that would make this particular (and VERY important) match stand out from all the others. It hurt like a b****, but he didn't injure himself and it got people talking. I agree completely with having to stand out and making a match memorable (especially in feds that aren't the WWE). Blunt head trauma is just my hot button issue. I get the same way everytime I see Romero or Low Ki play soccer with someone's head. It's all gravy. I agree that people reaaaaaaaally shouldn't knock themselves out, but it just happens. Wrestling, hockey, football, etc. It just comes with the territory. If you made a list of the things in professional wrestling that were unnecessary, we'd be back to Grecco-Roman times. Wrestling is about standing out - they needed a spot that would make this particular (and VERY important) match stand out from all the others. It hurt like a b****, but he didn't injure himself and it got people talking. As opposed to breaking your neck in the ring?... Wrestling is dangerous, people. It's about time all of you figured that out. I'm more afraid of landing awkwardly on a back-drop than I am of taking a post-bump. A messed up move or an unlucky fall resulting in a broken neck is completely different from purposely and repeatedly banging your head into a metal beam. You missed my point - repeatedly bashing your head into a metal beam isn't somehow massively more dangerous than bashing your head into a wooden-platform repeatedly (except he bashes his head on wood much, MORE more and sometimes much harder). You're more likely to f*** yourself up landing on the mat than you are bashing your face into a ring-post (atleast you can control how hard you smash your face into the pole). Any kind of dive to the floor is infinitely more dangerous than that spot. Case in point: HE WAS FINE! He got you to feel shocked. Was he really hurt? No. Did he make you believe he was? Yes. Mission successful. That is the point of professional wrestling.
|
|
|
Post by CuJ0 Will Keep Dancing on Jan 3, 2008 1:51:45 GMT -5
If you watch the match he was banging his forehead against the ring post, and clearly had enough time to brace for the shots and it's no like he does that spot every match. Nigel's a big boy, I'm sure he can make his own decisions regarding his body.
|
|
|
Post by sexualvanilla on Jan 3, 2008 1:58:15 GMT -5
I just wanted to make a point about Danielson that someone brought up, regarding him wrestling with injuries. He didn't get injured because of some insane high spot, they were mostly just accidents. When he injured his shoulder, he tripped doing some move to Colt Cabana and landed on his shoulder. When he got his eye detached, it was when he was taking some slaps and punches from Morishima that were actually meant to hit the sides but Morishima was doing them too hard and was a freak accident. After his shoulder injury but before he took time off, he only really wrestled a handful of times and was mostly in tag team matches, so there was never a huge risk, except for the Kenta match. And when he wrestled at Man Up, he had actually been cleared by a doctor to wrestle
|
|
|
Post by mcmahonfan85 on Jan 3, 2008 2:01:20 GMT -5
I also think it's important to talk about the fact that Nigel has severely injured two people with the Rebound Lariat, Jimmy Rave and Johnny Fairplay. As a wrestler, (I'm am not one) I would expect a level of safety going into a match. Mistakes happen, but I hate to say that the rash of injuries in Nigel's matches, whether to himself or others, is a bit scary. how many people has Nigel given a rebound lariat (or any lariat) to, and of those how many have been injured? he gave Rave some a couple of times, only one of which resulted in a serious injury; and last i check Johnny Fairplay is not a trained professional wrestler. quiet a few people have botched a Shooting Star Press at one point or another in their career, yet the move has not been banned (with the exception of WWE). the number is far greater when you add other diving moves, so should moves off the top rope be outlawed? AJ Styles almost broke Frankie Kazarian's neck a few years ago with a Styles Clash, so should he stop doing the move? accidents happen and Nigel did not mean to hurt Rave or Fairplay, just like D'Lo Brown didn't mean to cripple Droz and 2 Cold Scorpio & Dean Malenko mean to break Taz's neck.
|
|
|
Post by Timmy8271 on Jan 3, 2008 2:26:41 GMT -5
How many times does an "accidents" have to happen before you change your style to a safer style? I'm not talking about Nigel, I'm talking about all the guys.
|
|
|
Post by mcmahonfan85 on Jan 3, 2008 2:33:11 GMT -5
I just wanted to make a point about Danielson that someone brought up, regarding him wrestling with injuries. He didn't get injured because of some insane high spot, they were mostly just accidents. When he injured his shoulder, he tripped doing some move to Colt Cabana and landed on his shoulder. When he got his eye detached, it was when he was taking some slaps and punches from Morishima that were actually meant to hit the sides but Morishima was doing them too hard and was a freak accident. After his shoulder injury but before he took time off, he only really wrestled a handful of times and was mostly in tag team matches, so there was never a huge risk, except for the Kenta match. And when he wrestled at Man Up, he had actually been cleared by a doctor to wrestle the point wasn't whether or not Danielson got injured with highspots, it was that the guy who wrote to Wrestling Observer praised ROH for giving McGuinness a chance to heal and then bitched because they can't have their advertised matches because of it and will thus boycott and by the way, Danielson does have some what of a reckless style. the night before his match with Cabana he wrestled Nigel in a one hour draw, after which he was knocked out for a good long while. and no, after he tore his muscle he did wrestle in mostly tag matches. here is every event between Gut Check and Final Battle 2006 Glory by Honor V: Night One – didn't wrestle Glory by Honor V: Night Two – wrestled KENTA for 40+ minutes Survival of the Fittest 2006 – wrestled Joe to a 20 minute draw Motor City Madness – wrestled Austin Aries Suffocation – wrestled Sal Rinauro (squash match) Irresistible Forces – wrestled Samoa Joe in a No DQ match Honor Reclaims Boston – wrestled Delirious for almost 30 minutes The Bitter End – teamed w/Jimmy Rave to wrestle Samoa Joe & Nigel McGuinness Black Friday Fallout – didn't wrestle Dethroned – didn't wrestle Chicago Spectacular: Night One – wrestled Samoa Joe in a Steel Cage match Chicago Spectacular: Night Two – wrestled an eight-man elimination tag match, being the final member of his team International Challenge – wrested Homicide, Jimmy Rave and Nigel McGuinness Final Battle 2006 – wrestled Homicide and yes, Danielson may have been cleared to wrestle by a doctor, but that doesn't take away the fact that he was still injured and during the match took several shots to his eye. and the last point about Danielson: Rising Above. the writer calls the Benoit incident "the greatest tragedy in wrestling history" which, as we have learned, was caused by repeated concussions. the following sentence says "Today, we have not learned from it." both McGuinness, who the writer focused on, and Danielson suffered concussions at Rising Above, but while McGuinness took the following night off Danielson wrestled a 20+ minute match (Rocky Romero also suffered a concussion, but wrestled a squash match). the point about bringing up Bryan Danielson is that he has suffered more serious injuries competing in ROH than any other wrestler, but people put the focus on Nigel McGuinness
|
|
|
Post by slasher911 on Jan 3, 2008 3:13:37 GMT -5
How many times does an "accidents" have to happen before you change your style to a safer style? I'm not talking about Nigel, I'm talking about all the guys. And injuries never happen in a safer style? I've heard of more career-ending injuries in promotions with 'safer' styles than I have with others.
|
|
|
Post by Timmy8271 on Jan 3, 2008 3:22:25 GMT -5
Of course injuries happen in a safer style. I could walk outside my door and break my neck getting run over by a drunk drive. But i'm not like the Briscoes and going through ladders or giving myself a chair shot so someone can say "This is Awesome".
|
|
|
Post by Chuckie Finster on Jan 3, 2008 3:32:58 GMT -5
Honestly for me, I'm not all that concerned over what they do to themselves. They're the ones who do it to themselves knowing the risks involved. If they want to jeopardize their safety to wrestle, who am I to object. It's their livelihood. If I'm uncomfortable with it, I won't watch. Simple as that.
|
|
The Lodger
Don Corleone
Wino is not pleased.
Posts: 1,394
|
Post by The Lodger on Jan 3, 2008 3:36:32 GMT -5
Is this a work?
Kidding.
Interesting debate on a clearly touchy subject, I would have to say that as a fan, I am geniunely concerned about the wrestlers safety. I think it's unfair to single out Nigel because he is the champ. I mean if anyone needs to cool their bumps, it's the Briscoes, I mean I just watched the infamous "shooting star press" and I almost vomited. I know mistakes happen, but damn, we would've have been happy with a regular moonsault, or even a splash.
That being said, I think that guy's real problem is with Nigel, not with the bumps he's taking, which, now that I think about it, kind of makes me think it's a work.
|
|
|
Post by slasher911 on Jan 3, 2008 4:07:45 GMT -5
Of course injuries happen in a safer style. I could walk outside my door and break my neck getting run over by a drunk drive. But i'm not like the Briscoes and going through ladders or giving myself a chair shot so someone can say "This is Awesome". Then don't bitch and moan when somebody else does.
|
|
|
Post by BlackHoleMark on Jan 3, 2008 4:07:54 GMT -5
the point wasn't whether or not Danielson got injured with highspots, it was that the guy who wrote to Wrestling Observer praised ROH for giving McGuinness a chance to heal and then bitched because they can't have their advertised matches because of it and will thus boycott and by the way, Danielson does have some what of a reckless style. the night before his match with Cabana he wrestled Nigel in a one hour draw, after which he was knocked out for a good long while. and no, after he tore his muscle he did wrestle in mostly tag matches. here is every event between Gut Check and Final Battle 2006 Glory by Honor V: Night One – didn't wrestle Glory by Honor V: Night Two – wrestled KENTA for 40+ minutes Survival of the Fittest 2006 – wrestled Joe to a 20 minute draw Motor City Madness – wrestled Austin Aries Suffocation – wrestled Sal Rinauro (squash match) Irresistible Forces – wrestled Samoa Joe in a No DQ match Honor Reclaims Boston – wrestled Delirious for almost 30 minutes The Bitter End – teamed w/Jimmy Rave to wrestle Samoa Joe & Nigel McGuinness Black Friday Fallout – didn't wrestle Dethroned – didn't wrestle Chicago Spectacular: Night One – wrestled Samoa Joe in a Steel Cage match Chicago Spectacular: Night Two – wrestled an eight-man elimination tag match, being the final member of his team International Challenge – wrested Homicide, Jimmy Rave and Nigel McGuinness Final Battle 2006 – wrestled Homicide and yes, Danielson may have been cleared to wrestle by a doctor, but that doesn't take away the fact that he was still injured and during the match took several shots to his eye. and the last point about Danielson: Rising Above. the writer calls the Benoit incident "the greatest tragedy in wrestling history" which, as we have learned, was caused by repeated concussions. the following sentence says "Today, we have not learned from it." both McGuinness, who the writer focused on, and Danielson suffered concussions at Rising Above, but while McGuinness took the following night off Danielson wrestled a 20+ minute match (Rocky Romero also suffered a concussion, but wrestled a squash match). the point about bringing up Bryan Danielson is that he has suffered more serious injuries competing in ROH than any other wrestler, but people put the focus on Nigel McGuinness As a note, it is important to differentiate between different types of injuries. Not all injuries are in the same category in terms of what can be worked with and what cannot. Case in point, Danielson suffered a separated shoulder against Cabana if I'm not mistaken. He then wrestled about 11 times in a 3 1/2 - 4 month span. To link it to other sports, Kellen Winslow, tight end for the Cleveland Browns, played an entire season, 16 games in about the same span, with a separated shoulder that will most likely require surgery in the off-season. Unless I'm mistaken, I believe that football is a little bit more physically demanding than wrestling. Granted Winslow played only 5 more games than Danielson wrestled, but if you consider the fact that the Browns probably held practice 4 or 5 times a week, that means that Winslow worked with a separated shoulder in a sports environment of physical activity for around 130 - 150 days. Getting hit, using his arms to catch, running drills, etc. In football, often times if I'm correct, players who suffer concussion often miss one game, maybe two. Nigel missed one event because of concussion. It's the same. The reason both situations are different is because the injuries are different. A broken bone requires different techniques and more recovery time than a scrape. There are injuries you can work with and injuries you can't. It's unfair to say, "Person A worked through an injury and Person B didn't, so Person B is a safer worker." It depends. Do I think that McGuinness made the right decision to rest due to his concussion? Yes. Do I think that Bryan Danielson had the right to consult a doctor who told him he was fit for competition, and then work through an injury? Yes. Often times, our opinions don't matter, because, frankly, we don't know how a person feels. I bet many of us have done something that others might find "silly" or "dangerous" but in the end, the decisions we make are our decisions, and they are decisions that hopefully we will all be able to deal with down the line. We cannot make decisions for others that we do not know in really any personal way. We must have some degree of TRUST that people, professional in the business of professional wrestling know what they are doing, and that they are doing what is best for them at all times. Do they always make the right choice? No. Do we? No. That's life.
|
|
|
Post by Lionheart on Jan 3, 2008 9:51:38 GMT -5
I realize this is totally beside the point and all, but what I keep thinking as I read this is that not only is kayfabe dead, its remains have been exhumed and urinated on. I mean, the current champ of a promotion writing about "planned spots" on the internet?
Oh well.
Question: what exactly did the guy in the crowd say that set Nigel off? There seems to have been one remark in particular that triggered his rant, but I couldn't hear it in the video.
|
|
|
Post by I'm The Cool One on Jan 3, 2008 10:00:21 GMT -5
Honestly for me, I'm not all that concerned over what they do to themselves. They're the ones who do it to themselves knowing the risks involved. If they want to jeopardize their safety to wrestle, who am I to object. It's their livelihood. If I'm uncomfortable with it, I won't watch. Simple as that. Exactly my opinion as well
|
|
KLRA
El Dandy
Halt. I am Reptar.
Posts: 7,591
|
Post by KLRA on Jan 3, 2008 11:23:11 GMT -5
I think a lot of people are getting worked up over nothing.
It has come to the point in wrestling, I feel, that Chris Benoit has become like "9/11" in that every problem and solution must go through the filter that is Chris Benoit.
On one hand, yeah, you don't want another Benoit but on the other hand my GOD this is starting to get highly freakin' annoying.
|
|
|
Post by Aaron E. Dangerously on Jan 3, 2008 17:12:15 GMT -5
Both McG and the fan have good points. Sometimes things go bad, and I would rather wrestlers not try to thread the needle every five seconds for a little applause. Is it cool sometimes? Yeah, but when you're doing it every night, not only does it get boring, but you wonder about the physical state of the wrestler.
Mick Foley didn't go through the announcer's table every house show, y'know? That's an extreme example, but you get my point.
And if a wrestler finds himself having to resort to such daredevil tactics to just get a rise out of the crowd, then you have to really question the talent of that wrestler.
|
|