ddd84
Tommy Wiseau
Posts: 82
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Post by ddd84 on Apr 2, 2008 21:59:06 GMT -5
I never said that it doesn't matter what the fans think, only that certain fans will like certain things better than other fans. You said, absolutely, that if you polled 50,000 fans, that most of them would pick the Hell in the Cell match over any Flair match, and even if they did, it means nothing. That's my point. It's a worked sport, who cares? Flair is relevant right now, Foley isn't. Also, the fact that you're using this opportunity to again degrade Flair shows that you're extremely biased on this subject, so I think your opinion doesn't hold much weight on this particular subject. Flair is relevant now? Only because of the retirement angle. A few months ago he was jobbing to Lance Cade. As for my opinion being biased, sure it is, but everyone who is into wrestling has a biased opinion on it. Why does the opinion of somebody who loves him worth more than the opinion of someone who hates him? They're both biased, just differently. Who cares why he's relevant? Doesn't change the fact that he is. Foley is not right now, it doesn't mean anything either. And the reason I pointed out your opinion is because it's so skewed, that it almost invalidates any comment you make about Flair. I get that people think Flair is overrated, washed-up, a whiner, etc., etc., but I mean, it sounds like you have something personal against him. I don't know if you mean to come off like that, but you do. |
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Post by Veladus Jobs To Dead Computers on Apr 2, 2008 22:19:52 GMT -5
Who cares why he's relevant? Doesn't change the fact that he is. Foley is not right now, it doesn't mean anything either. And the reason I pointed out your opinion is because it's so skewed, that it almost invalidates any comment you make about Flair. I get that people think Flair is overrated, washed-up, a whiner, etc., etc., but I mean, it sounds like you have something personal against him. I don't know if you mean to come off like that, but you do. So he's relevant because you say he is, and Foley isn't because you say he isn't. Interesting. I'm gonna have to disagree. And again, the fact I hate Flair doesn't mean my opinion is less valid than people who love Flair. You can say it is all you want, but the fact is that positive bias is still a bias too. |
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Post by TRUTH TELLER on Apr 3, 2008 1:56:02 GMT -5
As far as I recall, Triple H didn't necessarily badmouth Flair. He stated in an interview sometime in the late '90s that Flair was his favorite wrestler when he was younger and he thought that Flair should have retired 10 years back. I don't see that as badmouthing. I see it as Trips thinking that Flair was ruining his legacy by sticking around for too long. Then they ended up becoming friends in WWE. And if anyone doesn't think that Flair was his favorite wrestler, hunt down a video of Terra Ryzing in WCW. I have that magazine. It's a "RAW" magazine from late 1997. It's the one with the disturbing HBK/WWF title centerfold. In retrospect, the interview is almost entirely kayfabe with Hunter getting over DX's anti-authority, anti-tradition gimmick under the guise that he was "shooting". I don't think it was anything he actually really felt. He was likely pressured by WWF--who was still getting creamed by WCW at the time-- to bury their top stars. In the same interview he "buried" Curt Hennig as a spineless Daddy's boy who was useless to him as a manager and wouldn't have gotten anywhere without Larry The Axe hand-holding him on everything. Since then, I've heard HHH put over Hennig a few different times. I don't think Hunter was ever truly anti-Flair. This was the era where Russo was running the magazines, so everything was all "worked-shoot". |
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Post by springwater on Apr 3, 2008 1:59:42 GMT -5
I remember when the original dx (well HBK and HHH mainly) used to have digs at Flair.. Also made me kinda chuckle when Flair all of a sudden was best friends with the same guys.. But hey, that's wreslting, and the monopoly that WWE has is very powerful.
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Apr 3, 2008 2:11:02 GMT -5
If you did a poll and asked 50,000 wrestling fans what their favorite match or the most memorable match is, I'd bet everything I own that Foley/Taker HIAC will come up more than everything Flair has been in COMBINED. I'll take that bet. Do you do PayPal? |
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Post by rapidfire187 on Apr 3, 2008 3:17:24 GMT -5
I really think the main difference between Hogan, SCSA and Flair(I won't even count Hart, he isn't in their league. Neither is Foley, and I'm a Foley mark) is that Flair got to a point where he mellowed out, and was willing to play second fiddle, and just be a wrestler. When did that happened? Last month? It certainly wasn't when he joined WWE. Remember that backstage fight between Flair and Bischoff a few years ago? I think that was because Flair was pissy at the attention Hogan recieved on his 724th "retirement" (BROTHER!) and that Flair's odometer was about to roll over but he wasn't getting that kind of attention. Also, the reason he semi-quit before this retirement angle was he was pissy about his push. Which is pretty funny really since a man pushing 70 is a black hole of credibility. But I digress... Foley was definitely in their league. So was Hart. Foley's style was just different. If you did a poll and asked 50,000 wrestling fans what their favorite match or the most memorable match is, I'd bet everything I own that Foley/Taker HIAC will come up more than everything Flair has been in COMBINED. This is partially due to the fact that most of today's fans hadn't been born when Flair was in his prime, but the fact remains. So say Foley isn't in Flair's league is just plain laughable. Oh, and unlike Flair, he was always pretty humble. He didn't "quit" because he was pissy about his push, he "quit" because a legend like Flair deserves to be more than a jobber. |
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JMA
Hank Scorpio
Down With Capitalism!
Posts: 6,880
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Post by JMA on Apr 3, 2008 4:09:24 GMT -5
Didn't Hunter also say that it was embarrassing to watch Flair wrestle without a shirt on?
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Post by Gillberg: 0-175 on Apr 3, 2008 4:17:13 GMT -5
I wish I could have posted this in the other thread, but since this has the slight potential of becoming another "bashing" thread, I gotta counter with the fact that I was honored enough to hang out with Flair and AA one night a few years back (2002), and tho I've told the story before, I used all kinds of "insidery" terms to him and he was attentive and lots of fun. He even got into a playful argument with me about himself being a bigger Piper mark then me! Yes, "mark" was the term he used. He is a class act all the way, and gave me a lot of time (and beers) when he didn't have to. To say this guy is a piece of trash and doesn't respect his fans did not have the pleasure I did. This guy made me feel like I was his new best pal. I am still really upset about him leaving, and I'm sorry for pirating this thread somewhat, but I had to get something out... I'm jealous. I'd love to style and profile with Flair. You know, I'm sure that Flair got to the point where he grew up and stopped all the dickish things he's done and became humble to his fans and the business. People grow up, and the quote seems to be the perfect example. He's probably done tons of shit, but the fact that he's over it is what makes him a class act. He's been humbled, and you have to respect him for that. Also, he got the sendoff he did because he's Mr. Ric f***ING Flair. Can anyone match his legacy? Hogan? No. Austin? No. Rock? No. Bret? No. There will never be another Nature Boy like Flair. |
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JMA
Hank Scorpio
Down With Capitalism!
Posts: 6,880
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Post by JMA on Apr 3, 2008 4:23:12 GMT -5
There will never be another Nature Boy like Flair. But there will be wrestlers BETTER than him. Seriously, I've always disliked the "no one will ever be better than [blank] wrestler" (which is kind of ironic, since my favorite wrestler--Bret Hart--claimed that about himself). It seems like an incredibly defeatist and cynical attitude. If I were a wrestler, I'd want to surpass my idols, not be a lesser wrestler "living up" to them. |
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BxB
Unicron
Only the shift key stands between him and copyright infringement.
Posts: 2,849
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Post by BxB on Apr 3, 2008 4:27:02 GMT -5
I really don't see anything wrong with that. I've developed wrong impressions about people before meeting them but when I do interact with them, my views are flipped upside down. I guess when HHH started interacting with Flair his opinions about him changed as well.
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Post by Macho Dude Handy Damage on Apr 3, 2008 5:01:36 GMT -5
I don't think HHH had anything personal against Flair. Hasn't HHH always claimed to be a big fan of Flair back in the day?
I just think HHH at the time felt that Flair (who at that time was over 50) should retire and let the young guys handle the business. That's how I at least understood HHH's "resentment" towards Flair at the time. Let the young guys take over the top spots, and not old geezers who should know when to quit.
Am I totally wrong for reading it that way?
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Apr 3, 2008 12:35:03 GMT -5
If you did a poll and asked 50,000 wrestling fans what their favorite match or the most memorable match is, I'd bet everything I own that Foley/Taker HIAC will come up more than everything Flair has been in COMBINED. I'll take that bet. Do you do PayPal? Yeah, that's, that's kinda a hyperbole bet. I could see where the bet mighta been any ONE of Flair's matches.. while arguable, there's def. a chance, but combined? Besides, I'm probably alone but outside of the two impressive bumps, that match really sucked. |
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Post by BlackJackRobby on Apr 3, 2008 12:52:06 GMT -5
I think my point has been somewhat made by all the arguing on who is worthy.
Mick and Terry are both relevant on deserve that type of spot light, they might not ever get it but they deserve it.
Hulk Hogan deserves it as much or more then anyone, but with him he slaps his own back so much no one else can fit a hand on it.
Bret deserves it and more for his final treatments. I think a Canadian Raw show for somthing like that would be amazing.
I just say the only reason Flair has been given two send offs has nothing to do with his history as much as it has to do with his buddies.
I respect him, and have been his fan since his first stint in the WWF in 91.
Much like everyone else he has done his share of good or bad things for the sport. He is most assuradly worth it, but I'm saying he is only getting it because of one person or how one person changed his mind and made himself more credible by joining with the man.
I did see the hate on Ric post BTW. I'm not hating on the dude, more hating on HHH. Who in most ways I like, but in others I put him in the corner with his buddies Nash, Hall, and Micheals.
The best politicians in wrestling history.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Apr 3, 2008 13:14:37 GMT -5
Bret Hart can not touch, and I repeat, can not touch, Ric Flair. Bret Hart is an all-time great, but he is not in Ric Flair's class. Bret Hart was the head of the WWF when they were losing to WCW, yet people want to make like he's some super legend, like a Flair, like a Hogan. Bret's legacy is based off the fact that he got "screwed" in Montreal, and he had to retire early in WCW because of an injury. He was never a Hogan, a Flair, an Andre, an Austin, a Rock. He was in that next tier of wrestlers, like a Backlund, like a Funk, like a Michaels.
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efarns
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,273
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Post by efarns on Apr 3, 2008 19:49:38 GMT -5
Terra Ryzing obviously patterned himself after Ric Flair, so I don't think he ever hated the guy. Any comments have to be taken with a grain of salt.
thebigslow is right. Ric Flair's stature in the sport is matched by a very, very select few. Most fans probably don't realize the significance of his role as NWA World champion. That isn't playing politics with one wrestling promoter. That's convincing a whole lot of wrestling promoters that you're the best man to make them money. You do that by going into a new territory every single night, escaping with the belt, and making your opponent into a bigger star so you can make more money on your next trip through the territory. I think that people who are WWF fans don't quite "get" Flair's career. The sendoff he got from the WWE was classy because the vast bulk of his career was done working for the competition.
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ddd84
Tommy Wiseau
Posts: 82
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Post by ddd84 on Apr 4, 2008 14:36:32 GMT -5
Who cares why he's relevant? Doesn't change the fact that he is. Foley is not right now, it doesn't mean anything either. And the reason I pointed out your opinion is because it's so skewed, that it almost invalidates any comment you make about Flair. I get that people think Flair is overrated, washed-up, a whiner, etc., etc., but I mean, it sounds like you have something personal against him. I don't know if you mean to come off like that, but you do. So he's relevant because you say he is, and Foley isn't because you say he isn't. Interesting. I'm gonna have to disagree. And again, the fact I hate Flair doesn't mean my opinion is less valid than people who love Flair. You can say it is all you want, but the fact is that positive bias is still a bias too. I could very easily turn that statement around. So Flair isn't relevant because you say he is, and Foley IS relevant because you say he is? Right now, at this moment, who is more relevant? Someone who just had a huge retirement angle? Or someone who has shown up a show here or there? |
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Post by Veladus Jobs To Dead Computers on Apr 4, 2008 15:16:48 GMT -5
So he's relevant because you say he is, and Foley isn't because you say he isn't. Interesting. I'm gonna have to disagree. And again, the fact I hate Flair doesn't mean my opinion is less valid than people who love Flair. You can say it is all you want, but the fact is that positive bias is still a bias too. I could very easily turn that statement around. So Flair isn't relevant because you say he is, and Foley IS relevant because you say he is? Right now, at this moment, who is more relevant? Someone who just had a huge retirement angle? Or someone who has shown up a show here or there? I never said Flair isn't relevant. But since you put it that way, who do you think is going to be more relevant in a year when Foley is doing another angle on TV and Flair is somewhere in Florida getting his corns removed? |
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