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Post by Asics Johnson on May 10, 2005 13:01:38 GMT -5
That's how it started out, chief. And people have been watching it ever since. That depends. Storylines are great... I'm not knocking them. But how hard is it to believe that there are people out there who would tune in simply to see two great wrestlers have a five star match? I was interested in HBK/Angle just because they're GREAT. I could've cared less about that storyline, personally. Mind you, I DO love storylines. I'm not a "pure wrestling" fan... but I understand where they're coming from. Yeah. Snitsky isn't on RAW at all these days. And Heidenreich reads poems. They're kings among men, alright.  Meh. He's getting good pops, and he's putting on good matches. What more can he do at mid-card level? Benoit should've won the title about eight years ago. He was great then. He shouldn't have won it at WMXX, in my opinion, because he's currently worthless to the roster. I agree with the analysis of Angle. He's something else. I dunno man. I kind of agree. The entertainment value makes the guy stand out... but there again... there's only so much you can do with a guy like Jon Heidenreich. First and foremost, you need to be able to put on an exciting match. The Hogan argument can come in... but he's an exception to the rule, for some reason. Christian is a pretty good wrestler, actually. He's a way better wrestler than Hogan. But yeah, his entertainment value does make him stand out more than the average shmoe. |
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Post by hakushi on May 10, 2005 13:47:46 GMT -5
I'm sure people would love to have 2 great talented guys with no gimmciks just get in the ring and wrestle.
THen Again that's not what ECW, WCW, or WWE had.
They marketed wrestlers with distinct personalities who battle for good/evil/money/pride/enjoyment of delivering pain/for the hell of it.
Without a character or a story it just seems well bland.
I wasn't sure what to think of Muta, but I saw him as this bad ass ninja and thought he kicked all types of ass.
Keiji Mutoh great wrestler now especially with his Bad Ass Attitude.
Hulk Hogan while not a moveset guy, knows how to work a crowd. His heel work as Hollywood Hogan wrestling a memphis heel style, of badgering the front row, choking, then taking a breather, he made the audience hate him during a match.
He does know how to work some great excellent matches, like his matches with Savage, STan Hansen, Keiji Mutoh, Tatsumi Fujinami, Mr. Perfect....
But he didn't have to work a match like that, a couple punches, an atomic drop, a scoop slam, a boot/legdrop and he's good. THe audience eats it up.
Same with Sid the man had a GREAT connection to the audience, and he powerbombed people. combine that with his awesome psycho look, and the way he sold himself he was golden. WCW, ECW, and WWF audiences loved him.
Steamboat wasn't just good on the mat, his Bruce Lee esque family man promos were good in that he came off as just a guy getting through his job, promoting the sport.
YOu're right looks and that can only get you so far.
But combine looks, ring talent (which Hogan really did have his psychology is great up until the Hulk Up), and entertainment value you got some of the best.
That's why Hogan, Flair, Savage were always at the top of the card. They delivered when they could.
Nowadays we've got Triple H, Eddie, Kurt, HBK, Really as the 1st string guys who can go in the ring, AND deliver on the mic.
That's why a guy like Eddie, Kurt, or HBK are well loved more than Benoit, even though Benoit is their equal in the ring...
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Post by Asics Johnson on May 10, 2005 15:12:21 GMT -5
That's true to an extent. To the mainstream audience, WWE and WCW were more enjoyable because they had storylines and gimmicks. ECW became a little more mainstream later, but moreso because of their wrestling. They had great angles too, but the wrestling was the main focus, and it was great. However, just because WWE is the most successful doesn't mean that there's not an audience out there for regular wrestling. (God, I can't believe I'm arguing for this.)
I'm not even a member of the "I like pure wrestling over everything" group that runs around on the internet a lot. I just know that they exist. They are wrestling fans, and they're fans because of the wrestling. And that's THEIR perogative, just like it's yours to think otherwise. Regardless of which side has more supporters, it's just a matter of opinion. Wrestling is entertainment... but there are several reasons to be entertained for the masses, not just the storylines alone.
The Great Muta has always been a great wrestler. Not just now with his bald headed mean man approach. He's good because he's a GOOD WRESTLER. See? It's possible.
Yeah, and I said Hogan was the lone exception. He still is. He never needed any wrestling skill to get more over than anyone in the business. But I can't say that for anyone else.
Yeah. I loved Sid. But most people thought he was ridiculous, from what I gathered.
Steamboat would've NEVER gotten over without his in ring skills. If he wasn't a great wrestler, he'd never gotten over with that generic Mr. Nice Guy gimmick he had back then. He was great, but it was because he was a good wrestler.
I like the guys who can go in the ring and on the mic. That's always been my stance. That's why I mark for Flair.
Benoit isn't anyone's equal in the ring any more. He's a joke. Years ago, if he were wrestling for the WWF when Bret Hart was champion, he would've been right on par. Nowadays, though, he should be jerking the curtain on Velocity.
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Post by hakushi on May 10, 2005 15:22:42 GMT -5
Hmm I loved Muta because of his kick ass series with sting, and the fact he was this bad ass ninja dude with cool face paint.
His matches were all excellent, and that's why I liked him.
Now La Parka I liked because he was so f***ing awesome in AAA, and in WCW the chairman was so friggin bizarre in the land of the nWo that he just got over with the fans because of his costume and weird aura.
It's funny some guys also have an Aura that makes them over.
That's why a guy like Snitsky is over, his aura and his bizarre looke.
I think Snitsky could have it in him to become a good power wrestler, he's a rookie and pulling off some good stuff..
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Post by Asics Johnson on May 10, 2005 15:29:13 GMT -5
There you have it, folks.
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Post by Two-Time Champ Darth Violence on May 10, 2005 15:55:01 GMT -5
OK, this is a silly post. I don't know anyone who argues that there shouldn't be any entertainment in wrestling. But the entertainment portion MUST lead to good matches. The matches are the focal point, not the skits in between. The tail does NOT wag the dog. Using your own example, yes there was a lot of entertainment in the McMahon/Austin feud, but the drama led to exciting and dramatic matches between Austin and the Rock, and with Austin and others as well.
Contrast that with say, the Al Snow-Bossman feud from the same era. The vignettes between the two were well done, and I laughed when Bossman fed Pepper to Snow. But the payoff of the angle was a match, the infamous Kennel from Hell Match, and it was horrendous. The payoff from any angle is a MATCH, and if the match sucks, the angle is a failure.
In your line of thinking, the WWE could exist without matches. That couldn't be further from the truth. You also seem to think that a guy can get along without being a decent wrestler. That's incorrect too. Why do you think a guy like Sid always starts out over, but never ends up that way? It's because when he gets into a match and botches lots of spots, people recognize that he sucks. Notice that a guy like JBL, who started out not very good, worked his rear end off on his ring skills and got more over as his ring skills improved.
Conversely, you have a guy like Chris Benoit. He may be the best pure wrestler around, but he will never be over like Eddie Guerrero or Kurt Angle, two guys who are on his level as far as skill, but are far more entertaining.
Other examples are Hogan and the Rock. They were far more limited in the ring, but they had charisma that makes up for it AND they knew how to make their matches look good, even with a limited moveset. When have you ever seen a truly terrible Rock match? Or a truly terrible Hogan match when he was in his prime?
Never. (Hogan had some bad ones, but almost all of them were after he should have retired.)
There are some people who prefer a more sports-based approach, which is why a company like ROH will always be successful, and why Japanese tape traders will always exist...but in the end, all wrestling is entertainment, and it is all focused on the MATCHES.
And it bears repeating...the tail does NOT wag the dog.
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Post by Asics Johnson on May 10, 2005 16:50:10 GMT -5
Are you talking to me? Because I didn't argue any of that, I don't think. I said that there are people out there who ONLY watch WWE for the pure wrestling. I didn't say it was their whole audience, or that WWE could exist only on that part of the fanbase.
But I'll assume you weren't talking to me... and that's not a smartass comment. I just don't think you were, because I wasn't saying anything like that.
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Post by Two-Time Champ Darth Violence on May 10, 2005 18:05:41 GMT -5
No Asics, I'm not talking to you. I know where you stand. I'm talking to the originator of this thread, who made some pretty silly assertions.
Everyone knows you're a big fan of Ric Flair, and he's the best "total package" (entertainer/wrestler) of all, even if he isn't the greatest technical wrestler.
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TuneinTokyo
Hank Scorpio
The Mountain from Stone Mountain
Posts: 6,431
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Post by TuneinTokyo on May 10, 2005 22:33:39 GMT -5
My eyes hurt. Too much reading.
Wrestling is fun to watch. I most enjoy two guys working a good match, more than skits. I started watching before a wrestler ever tried to act, the most was an inventive interview, and I got hooked. I wished they scored it like when it was in the newspaper the next day after a local show. My favorite moments was reading a newspaper about a show I missed. There was no score but they established winner, time, and pin, submission, or DQ.
Thanks guys this has been one of the most interesting threads I've read in a while.
PARTS UNKNOWN=RATINGS
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Post by FailedGimmick on May 10, 2005 23:03:12 GMT -5
The day after No Way Out 2004 a radio station I listen to had a rather in depth discussion about the results of the PPV.
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