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Post by quantum on Oct 3, 2009 17:19:45 GMT -5
I never have quite understood why Wrestlemania 9 is considered the worst Wrestlemania of all time and has got an induction. To me it was a fun event with a pretty stacked card. Granted it didn;t have the star power or the match quality of previous Wrestlemania;s and up until that point (with maybe the exception of Wrestlemania 4 which was a bland tournament but nothing overly awful and gave us the first non Hulk Hogan main event and title win) was the most under whelming . Wrestlemania the previous year was one of the best in history and Wrestlemania 10 was a pretty awesome Mania as well so 9 was in between two solid Manias which may add to it looking worse than it actually was. 10 was the dawn of the 'WWF New Generation' era. The WWF with Wrestlemania 9 was looking for a different feel and went with a roman themed Mania that seems to be the big argument for the induction 'so what?' I say it was not over all a big part of the Mania and just added more fun to the theme of Mania that year. It was J.Rs first year and he was along with Bobby Heanan and Macho Man on commentary so they had a very solid commentary team and the first big event where Heanan and J.R were side by side.
The opening IC championship was a solid match with a weak ending however and up until that point was the best opener in Mania history. The Steiners VS Headshrinkers was an awesome match. Money Inc VS Hogan and Beefcake was a great match and was the first time Hogan took a step down to mid card and was not booked to be anywhere near the main event inside or outside of the ring (like he was at Mania 4) for a Mania to make way for Bret VS Yokozunna. Perfect VS Luger was also a solid match. Admittedly however it was not as good as it could have been. Bret VS Yokozunna was better than expected and gave us Bret in the main event for the first time ever. However fans went home more than happy when Hogan left champion.
This Mania was pretty solid and not nearly as bad and bland as Mania 11 which gave us a football player vs a mid carder for the main event and is far more deserving of an induction than 9 ever is/was. It also wasn't as bad as 13 which the only good match on the card was the legendary Hart VS Stone Cold match and which had up until that point the worst championship match in Mania history. Also I would say 9 was better than 15. the only thing which saved Mania 15 was Stone Cold VS Rock and that was at the height of the best boom in wrestling history and The Monday Night Wars which meant they should have had an excellent Mania that year with how stacked there card was. 93 was a hard time for wrestling in general and one of the worst drawing years for the WWF in history also the roster was paper thin at this time also.
Wrestlemania 9 is no where near wrestle crap induction worthy so what gives? Especially when 11,13 and 15 have not even been considered for an induction?
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Hiroshi Hase
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Oct 3, 2009 17:34:12 GMT -5
It may not have been a great card, but I don't see how it's wrestlecrap.
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MrBRulzOK
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Post by MrBRulzOK on Oct 3, 2009 17:50:03 GMT -5
The Hulk Hogan title win just seemed utterly pointless for one. Especially considering that he would just end up leaving again a few months later. If they wanted the show to end on a happy note, why didn't they just have Bret Hart beat Yokozuna in the first place? Not only that, but your argument that Hulk Hogan was for the first time ever featuring only in an undercard match loses water just for the aforementioned title switch. Even if it was mere seconds long, you could still count it as a main event since it closed out the show. Not only that, but the match in general just made no sense. Yokozuna had already won. Mr. Fuji had no reason to accept Hogan's challenge. And honestly, why should he have? Not only that, but he lost in... mere seconds after accepting such a foolish challenge.
Also, you left out that the show also featured Undertaker vs GIANT GONZALEZ, a match that probably could earn the show an induction all by itself. Not only that, but the Tatanka Shawn Michaels match ended in count out, which you mentioned of course. However, for a match to go on for so long only to end in such a cop out finish that solves nothing ON WHAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE THE BIGGEST SHOW OF THE YEAR just makes it into quite a let down if you ask me. And the other great match you mentioned, Hogan and Beefcake vs Money Inc, also ended in another cheap finish, disqualification in this case. Now granted, there were also some good matches on the show, but a show where the opener ended by count out and the main event made the new champion to look like a fool, along with of course Undertaker vs Giant Gonzalez, it just does not make for a good show in my opinion.
I will agree though that there are probably other Wrestlemanias you could argue to be inducted.
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Hiroshi Hase
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Oct 3, 2009 18:40:15 GMT -5
I'm guessing because the Japanese contingent of Fuji/Yoko were arrogant to where they thought they were invincible and challenged Hogan.
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Post by lildude8218 on Oct 3, 2009 18:45:24 GMT -5
The Hulk Hogan title win just seemed utterly pointless for one. Especially considering that he would just end up leaving again a few months later. If they wanted the show to end on a happy note, why didn't they just have Bret Hart beat Yokozuna in the first place? Not only that, but your argument that Hulk Hogan was for the first time ever featuring only in an undercard match loses water just for the aforementioned title switch. Even if it was mere seconds long, you could still count it as a main event since it closed out the show. Not only that, but the match in general just made no sense. Yokozuna had already won. Mr. Fuji had no reason to accept Hogan's challenge. And honestly, why should he have? Not only that, but he lost in... mere seconds after accepting such a foolish challenge. 1) No one knew Hogan was going to leave right away. 2) Fuji was the one who challenged Hogan not the other way around. Hogan came down to complain that the heels cheated to try and get the decision reversed and help Bret. Fuji challenged Hogan, Bret told him to forget about him and go for it.
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Post by Big Daddy Bad Booking on Oct 3, 2009 21:55:43 GMT -5
There are some WM's that are worse, but the cheesy Casearian get-up and the Hogan win don't help it.
Now if RD listened to me and got WM XI inducted...
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Schemer
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Post by Schemer on Oct 4, 2009 3:45:56 GMT -5
Wrestlemania XI was far worse... To me, WMIX is mostly crap because of the good matches with bad finishes (HBK V Tatanka) or bad matches, period... There is some good in the card as a whole, and Bobby Heenan made the event hilarious (His chemistry with Macho Man is great) although another knock and miss is that this is the first one that doesn't have Gorilla calling it... The commentary probably makes the event a great deal more entertaining for me... Oh, and Ted DiBiase's white/silver tuxedo combo is awesome.
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Post by quantum on Oct 4, 2009 17:15:55 GMT -5
The Hulk Hogan title win just seemed utterly pointless for one. Especially considering that he would just end up leaving again a few months later. If they wanted the show to end on a happy note, why didn't they just have Bret Hart beat Yokozuna in the first place? Not only that, but your argument that Hulk Hogan was for the first time ever featuring only in an undercard match loses water just for the aforementioned title switch. Even if it was mere seconds long, you could still count it as a main event since it closed out the show. Not only that, but the match in general just made no sense. Yokozuna had already won. Mr. Fuji had no reason to accept Hogan's challenge. And honestly, why should he have? Not only that, but he lost in... mere seconds after accepting such a foolish challenge. Also, you left out that the show also featured Undertaker vs GIANT GONZALEZ, a match that probably could earn the show an induction all by itself. Not only that, but the Tatanka Shawn Michaels match ended in count out, which you mentioned of course. However, for a match to go on for so long only to end in such a cop out finish that solves nothing ON WHAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE THE BIGGEST SHOW OF THE YEAR just makes it into quite a let down if you ask me. And the other great match you mentioned, Hogan and Beefcake vs Money Inc, also ended in another cheap finish, disqualification in this case. Now granted, there were also some good matches on the show, but a show where the opener ended by count out and the main event made the new champion to look like a fool, along with of course Undertaker vs Giant Gonzalez, it just does not make for a good show in my opinion. I will agree though that there are probably other Wrestlemanias you could argue to be inducted. As an above poster has already said no one at that time knew that Hogan was going to leave a short time after Wrestlemania. Therefore saying that giving him the title again and ending Mania that year with Hogan the champ didn;t make much sense and was pointless is really hindsight. It did make sense Hogan coming out and again it was him who was challenged by Mr Fuji on Yokozunna's behalf (Yokozunna didn't speak for himself until In Your House 6 February of 96). Fuji had history from previous wrestlers he had manged in the past and as we all know Hogans character was always 'fighting evil foreigners and for America' more than anything. He came to check that Bret was OK after being Hart was 'defeated by the evil foreigner under controversial circumstances' (Fuji threw salt into Bret's eyes). It did make sense for Bret to loose th title at that point also. He was not ready to carry the company at that time and be the champion. He was only given the belt in 1992 as Vince was very short on champions and top drawing talent and also Flair was on his way out and with the steroid trials at the time Vince was looking for a much smaller champion than he was used to. Vince had no choice but to give the belt to Bret. Buy rates and attendance rates were down during Bret's first run as champion. Putting the belt back on Hogan. As they didn't;t know he was going to leave was an attempt to get buy rates and attendance back up again. Bret did get the belt back when he had been built up a lot more and was read to be WWF Champion the next again year. After his King Of The Ring and Royal Rumble(joint) win and he won it back at Mania when was ready. Fact is in 92/93 time Hart was not ready to be WWF Champion. The fans went nuts when Hogan ended the night WWF Champion and were very happy to see him back with the belt so the plan and thought behind it definitely did work at that time. Hogan was not booked as part of the main event and the fans lapped It up when he did come out and won after he was challenged by Fuji. I for one actually enjoyed the Undertaker VS Gonzalez angle and match at the time. It was the first time that Undertaker had been dominated by a force greater than himself. Giant Gonzalez is definite wrestlecrap but the angle was not that bad and as bad as we like to make out on this board (IMO) someone stronger than The Undertaker finally comes in and dominates him for a short while before Taker comes back and it's not many men who tower over Taker like Gonzalez did that was worth seeing alone. As a little mark at the time I was genially scared of Gonzalez and that;s what the charter was pure intimidation. It was not the worst match in WWF history and perhaps not Takers worst match either (Taker VS Bundy Mania 11 was worse IMO) The body suit is the only thing that gets Gonzalez an induction IMO and there has been worse wrestlers in WWF and wrestling history than Giant Gonzalez IMO. Undertaker had dominated for two years (or just over) before Gonzalez came in and had dominated his previous two mania opponents so this match gave fans a 'what;s going to happen here' first for The Undertaker Also on a side note when Taker had to be 'stretchered out' during the match the fans started shouting for Hogan. Also this is the first Mania which featured the legendary evil clown Doink and the only Mania Doink was heel (he was face wrestlecrap face clown by the next again year) so that IMO cancels out the 'immediate induction because of Gonzales VS Taker'. Crush VS Doink was a good match also and had the 'two Doinks angle'. Which again I liked at the time as a little mark. Admittedly some of the great and good matches on the card did have very week endings but I think that 'leaving Mania with things unresolved' was a lot to do with the WWF now having a weekly show (Raw which they did not have in 1992) and a very week roster. WWF I think at that time wanted to draw there feuds what they could have at that time just a bit longer until they could perhaps strengthen there roster which they did do during the course of that year. Especially with how challenged they were now compared to before with matches and feuds to come up with. They no longer had the star power or the amount of talent they had in the 80's and very early 90's and the business as a whole was in a transition period at that time. WWF were looking for something fresh and new with this Mania and it paid off IMO again. Wrestlemania 11 was a lot worse and more wrestlecrap and more deserving an induction IMO. The card was bland and boring and the crowd was dead the whole way through the PPV even HBK had difficulty highlighten Mania that year. As he went against worst drawing champion in WWF history Diesel. 11 was one of those PPVs which looked good on paper but even as an 11 year old mark when I saw it on VHS it bored me to tears just about and Iam a fan of 1995 as a WWF year even as wrestle crappy as it was. There was just no atmosphere at Mania 11. The last officiall (full) year of the failed 'New Generation Era'
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Jiren
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Post by Jiren on Oct 4, 2009 22:39:10 GMT -5
I think 11/12 are worse than 9
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Post by Milkman Norm on Oct 5, 2009 1:27:52 GMT -5
I tell you all again Wrestlemania IX is far, far worse than Wrestlemania XI. WM XI was really boring and over loaded with celebrities of the mid-90's but it had some decient matches. Diesel-HBK is a good match, LT-Bam Bam is a good celebrity match. Yes a football player headlined the biggest ppv of the year in a major down period. I don't think that's enough to make it wrestlecrap.
WM IX on the other hand? You've got the announcers in togas, you've got a who's who of wrestlecrap gimmicks, you've got heels going over in what should have been blow off matches, and you've got the Hogan win at the end. It's pure crap and should be treated as such.
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Post by quantum on Oct 5, 2009 3:27:22 GMT -5
I think 11/12 are worse than 9 11 is far worse than 9. It is chock full of celebrities no one cares about and has a football player (who know one outside the states and it was/is a worldwide audience they cater to) VS Bam Bam who was a mid carder at the time headlining Mania. 12 is arguable IMO they had onl;y built up one match for Mania that year HBK VS Hart and it was the WWF first ever Iron Man Match. Also that year gave us the Hollywood Back Lot Brawl between Piper and Goldust and a good Diesel VS Taker match. I think the WWF were suffering from a very week roster that year around Mania as many 'Star's by that point had either left or were on there way out either of wrestling or too WCW. The WWF were suffering that year and it did show in their Mania roste that year.
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Post by quantum on Oct 5, 2009 3:40:00 GMT -5
I tell you all again Wrestlemania IX is far, far worse than Wrestlemania XI. WM XI was really boring and over loaded with celebrities of the mid-90's but it had some decient matches. Diesel-HBK is a good match, LT-Bam Bam is a good celebrity match. Yes a football player headlined the biggest ppv of the year in a major down period. I don't think that's enough to make it wrestlecrap. WM IX on the other hand? You've got the announcers in togas, you've got a who's who of wrestlecrap gimmicks, you've got heels going over in what should have been blow off matches, and you've got the Hogan win at the end. It's pure crap and should be treated as such. I have covered all your points in my second post and who's who of wrestle crap Giant Gonzalez and Todd Pettingill?. Other than that they had no other wrestlecrap on the card. Also with the 'toga party' so what. It added a bit of fun and a different theme to the event that year. It was hit or miss obviously with you (and a lot of other fans) it was miss dosen't;t make it instant wrestlecrap. Admittedly not much was resolved at that Mania and there was a lot of week endings (I explained this in my second post also) but heels going over in what should have been blow off feuds? faces are supposed to win all the time or it;s instant wrestlecrap is it?. I also explained why the Hogan win was the best thing at the time or The company and what the fans wanted in my second post. 11 was a lot worse featuring CELEBRITIES NO ONE CARES ABOUT and those wrestlers guys. As it was billed. Highlighted by celebrity (who know one outside the US carded about and Mania as well as the whole WWF/E is catered to a worldwide audience). It was chock full of wrestlecrap and does deserve to be inducted. With 9 (as explained above) the card was very week it was same with Mania 11 I would rather see people dressed in togas than Mania over ruin by 'celebrities'. That was the min reason for both the themes. Also the togas were only a very small part of WM 9 WM 11 was highlighted by CELEBRITYS and had some wrestlers on the card.
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Post by johnnyk9 on Oct 6, 2009 14:11:28 GMT -5
I never considered it a top show, but I agree it's not Wrestlecrap, 1993 was a weird transition year for WWE and they put on what they thought was a good card for that years Mania, I don't see a problem with it
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Post by destrucity on Oct 7, 2009 23:39:45 GMT -5
WrestleMania XI featured the PWI Match of the Year in 1995. Any card that delivers the match of the year does not deserve a WrestleCrap induction.
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MolotovMocktail
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Post by MolotovMocktail on Oct 7, 2009 23:53:13 GMT -5
WrestleMania XI featured the PWI Match of the Year in 1995. Any card that delivers the match of the year does not deserve a WrestleCrap induction. Please tell me that wasn't LT/Bam Bam. As for Mania 9, the only really bad thing on it was Taker/Gonzalez. Hogan's title win worked because it was a huge surprise, likely done to top the Warrior's surprise comeback the year before. While it doesn't hold up years later, it was fine for its time, and the Roman theme in an outdoor stadium was a lot of fun, and made me wish I was there.
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Post by quantum on Oct 8, 2009 3:54:56 GMT -5
WrestleMania XI featured the PWI Match of the Year in 1995. Any card that delivers the match of the year does not deserve a WrestleCrap induction. I highly doubt that and if it was it was the wrong choice. When there was the two excellent Diesel vs Hart matches (Royal Rumble and Survivor Series) the Ladder rematch (HBK VS Razor Summerslam) and Bret VS Bulldog (In Your House 5) among a few others. There was nothing on the card which should have beat these matches and which should have won match of the year.
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Post by quantum on Oct 8, 2009 3:59:10 GMT -5
.[/quote]
Hogan's title win worked because it was a huge surprise, likely done to top the Warrior's surprise comeback the year before. [/quote]
This probably came into consideration but not as big a factor as the reasons I gave in one of my previous posts in this link.
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Post by probable on Oct 8, 2009 14:25:39 GMT -5
I feel the same way. This was my first Mania, and have nothing but fond memories of it. Workrate, pah.
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h
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Post by h on Oct 9, 2009 11:22:50 GMT -5
It depends on what your definition of "is"--I mean, of "WrestleCrap"--is.
Yes, there were some ridiculous moments: the second Doink hitting Crush with a prosthetic arm, Jimmy Hart's reversible ring jacket/referee uniform, and the infamous chloroform attack. Hulk Hogan won an unscheduled 30-second match well after he stopped being relevant to professional wrestling. Papa Shango, the voodoo master, wrestled in a dark match against a bullfighter. Add to that the Roman theme, which was definitely over the top. There's clearly a good case for it to be inducted.
I really enjoyed the event, and I watch it on a fairly regular basis. I really enjoyed the evil Doink, and the multiple Doinks fit in well with the character. I also liked "pineapple head" Crush, so it was great to see the two of them featured in a feud. Thr Luger-Perfect match and the Steiners-Headshrinkers match were both solid and fun to watch. I think the chloroform was a brilliant addition to the Undertaker-Gonzalez match, as Gonzalez was a villain out to destroy The Undertaker rather than just looking for a victory. I also thought Bret Hart falling to the monster heel was great and could have been great for the year's storylines if Hogan hadn't gotten involved. Personally, I don't think Hogan added to the card at all, but that's just a personal bias.
So yes, it was WrestleCrap, but it's also one of the best wrestling events of all time in my book.
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Post by quantum on Oct 9, 2009 16:40:02 GMT -5
It depends on what your definition of "is"--I mean, of "WrestleCrap"--is. Yes, there were some ridiculous moments: the second Doink hitting Crush with a prosthetic arm, Jimmy Hart's reversible ring jacket/referee uniform, and the infamous chloroform attack. Hulk Hogan won an unscheduled 30-second match well after he stopped being relevant to professional wrestling. Papa Shango, the voodoo master, wrestled in a dark match against a bullfighter. Add to that the Roman theme, which was definitely over the top. There's clearly a good case for it to be inducted. I really enjoyed the event, and I watch it on a fairly regular basis. I really enjoyed the evil Doink, and the multiple Doinks fit in well with the character. I also liked "pineapple head" Crush, so it was great to see the two of them featured in a feud. Thr Luger-Perfect match and the Steiners-Headshrinkers match were both solid and fun to watch. I think the chloroform was a brilliant addition to the Undertaker-Gonzalez match, as Gonzalez was a villain out to destroy The Undertaker rather than just looking for a victory. I also thought Bret Hart falling to the monster heel was great and could have been great for the year's storylines if Hogan hadn't gotten involved. Personally, I don't think Hogan added to the card at all, but that's just a personal bias. So yes, it was WrestleCrap, but it's also one of the best wrestling events of all time in my book. I agree with just about everything you said and perhaps it could have been inducted 9or has been inducted) for ' in a fun but hilarious way' (much like I would like Paul Bearer to be inducted. For fun but cringe worthy and hilarious). Rather than flat out crap and stay way,t run your T.V off and totally forget this ever took place (Most of the inductions do go this way and I think when people think 'wrestlecrap' they think of the most crap things in wrestling not nesserially the most over the top and fun things. Which IMO also qualify as 'wrestlecrap). Something I wouldn;t nesserially agree with was when you said it was years after Hulk Hogan was relevant. If he was not relevant the fans would not have went crazy for him on Raw leading up to Mania when he ,had his return, nor would he have gotten the reaction he did when he came out and Mr Fuji made the challenge on behalf of Yokozunna and also the fans reaction when he won the title(and the reaction Hogan got at King Of The Ring when he came out and lost the title) at Wrestlemania 9 told us that he was still relevant. He got by far the biggest pop of the night. Also if Hogan was no linger relevant to wrestling. He could not have helped WCW get on top during the war 9as heel NWO Hogan a few years later) and help beat WWF in the ratings for over 80 weeks and help put WCW on the map from 1994 on wards. I can't believe they left Papa Shango of the card though and only gave him a dark match at Wrestlemania 9. This meant that he never got a match at Mania (at least he got the 'run in' the year before though). I would have liked that to have been on the official release of Wrestlemania 9 . Still it would have taken away from the epic opening Intercontinental Championship match between HBK VS Tatanka. So every cloud has a silver lining.
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