Joekishi
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Post by Joekishi on Dec 30, 2008 12:31:41 GMT -5
How is Joe the bitch to Nash? Seriously, Joe got the better part of the whole deal. You have Joe winning the world title he wanted, gets his money, and benefits while Nash is just a manager, and yet Joe is the bitch here? You must not understand what bitch means,then. Joe goes from being a badass to having to relearn everything from Nash and then *surprise* loses his title thanks to Nash in something everyone with a pulse saw coming. If he wasn't Nash's bitch, then he was neutered. Nash played Joe like a damn violin. That was the whole point of the storyline, Joe called Nash and Hall washed up/washed out guys who have no business in wrestling. So it took a whole year, and Nash finally got his payback. Now it's up to Joe to man up and try to get back to where he was, while Nash laughs him off and stands at the top with the MEM the other "has beens" as Joe called them.
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Post by lildude8218 on Dec 30, 2008 13:42:54 GMT -5
Couldn't this have been discussed in the thread where you got the posts that you just quoted?
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Joekishi
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by Joekishi on Dec 30, 2008 14:20:32 GMT -5
No because that was about gooker, this is about Nash/Joe being a good feud to elevate Joe
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Post by Mayonnaise on Dec 30, 2008 14:32:40 GMT -5
I don't agree (shocking I know). They had Joe feud with Kurt Angle for over a year and finally prove he could out think and out wrestle one of the sports best ever only to turn around and basically admit he had no idea what he was doing and get suckered by Kevin Nash.
I think it made Joe look stupid after all the build.
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hollywood
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Post by hollywood on Dec 30, 2008 14:58:47 GMT -5
[insert obligatory joekishi "I still don't get Joe" comment here]
I also think it was bad booking.
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Post by joeiscool on Dec 30, 2008 17:48:53 GMT -5
I don't agree (shocking I know). They had Joe feud with Kurt Angle for over a year and finally prove he could out think and out wrestle one of the sports best ever only to turn around and basically admit he had no idea what he was doing and get suckered by Kevin Nash. I think it made Joe look stupid after all the build. And that. ladies and gentlemen, is story telling 101. Build some great hero that can defeat all challenges, except something small an insignificant. Joe can out wrestle anyone except someone who's not trying to out wrestle him. Sounds like a good story to me :-\
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 30, 2008 18:02:23 GMT -5
It's only great booking if they wanted to bury Joe. And all indicators seem to point to "yes".
I know people used to, and still do, make the joke that all of the stars are WWE cast offs or WCW mainstays, but it seems like every time someone comes along to break that mold, be it Joe, AJ, or Abyss, TNA decides to get WACKY with the booking.
Hmm, Joe is over as a monster, let's let Angle neuter him for a long time, adding NOTHING to Angle, and when he finally does win, it'll be too late to really give a rat's ass.
Abyss? Unstoppable machine? Baulderdash! Let's stop him on a weekly basis. Whose turn is it to beat the crap out of him this week and throw thumbtacks covered in burning glass or something at him? DOOF!
AJ? Phenomenal? Okay, let's treat him like he's a 15 year old in all of our promos, and make him Kurt Angle's houseboy for a long time. They're fixing SOME of it with Frontline, but when your team has 4 times as many members, playing the underdog means you're a joke to the booking team. Where the HELL are Creed and the others when a beatdown is happening? It's not like TNA BOOKED them. What, they tired from all of that wrestling they didn't do? They too focused on that match they don't have coming up?
I'm sorry if it's been a bit much, but there is no kayfabe reason they can't watch each other's back. If Steiner, one of the slowest men in today's wrestling, can mosey on down to the ring at 1.5 miles per decade, I think Jay Lethal could possibly show up on time.
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comahan
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Post by comahan on Dec 30, 2008 18:51:19 GMT -5
Oh, absolutely. Bury away. Everything buries everyone unless they have 30 min matches every night and 8 year title reigns.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 30, 2008 19:24:20 GMT -5
Oh, absolutely. Bury away. Everything buries everyone unless they have 30 min matches every night and 8 year title reigns. Nobody is saying that, but if Joe's supposed to be a main eventer, I don't see why he needs Nash's guidance. That would of made much more sense if he was the challenger, and couldn't get it done. It just makes him look like an aimless kid the way they did it.
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hollywood
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Post by hollywood on Dec 30, 2008 20:07:47 GMT -5
I'm not sure I'd say that Joe's been buried. I'd definitely say they've screwed up with him, though.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 30, 2008 20:30:06 GMT -5
I'm not sure I'd say that Joe's been buried. I'd definitely say they've screwed up with him, though. I agree. I think the second they put him against Angle right when Angle came in, they only went down from there.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 30, 2008 20:35:59 GMT -5
The Nash/Joe angle was a fine idea, but it's execution was flawed.
I don't mind the idea, though it did drag Joe a bit too far away from the monster role he thrived so well in.
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Post by skiller on Dec 30, 2008 20:42:57 GMT -5
I don't think it's completely unbelievable that Nash could play Joe. We have people here saying that Joe could take on Angle but lose to Nash. But Nash isn't out wrestling Joe like Angle, he's outsmarting him.
In terms of intelligence I think we can agree that Nash is far more dangerous than Angle. As the saying goes he may have taught Joe everything Joe knows, but he didn't teach him everything Nash knows.
With that said, the angle hasn't been as good as it could be. But I don't think Joe's being buried because of it.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 31, 2008 2:26:38 GMT -5
The angle hasn't hurt Joe, it's a lot of the other things they've done to Joe that have hurt him.
At first, they had Joe do the whole "getting a new contract on his terms" angle. I could appreciate what they were doing there; they were showing that, yes, he WAS learning from Nash, the ultimate political manipulator, and it was paying off. But it hurt Joe's image, I think; made him less about kicking ass, more about playing the game.
Now, when Joe won the belt, it looked like things were on the right track; great title match with Angle, some decent feuds, and a bloody fight with Booker, etc. Joe seemed like he was heading back down the "Joe is Gonna Kill You" path. But it got sidetracked again, and Joe hasn't really been the same in a long time.
Joe is fully capable of working well as a "regular guy" who just so happens to be a devastating bruiser. His ROH Title run was mostly him being himself, but clearly being an ass kicker once the bell rang.
But his initial success on TV was coming as a killer. I mean, his face turn in TNA was based on the fact that, with the "Fan's Revenge Match", they were basically feeding Jarrett to Joe, and even then, Joe was stealing the world title and making it clear that, forget good or bad guy, he was here for the gold, the power, and to punish people.
If Joe went through winning the title with that persona 100%, and maybe a few years down the line TNA decided to have him start playing "himself' more, it would've made sense. But TNA went too quickly; they should've let his initial, successful gimmick run it's course before letting him change so much.
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on Dec 31, 2008 3:27:49 GMT -5
It's only great booking if they wanted to bury Joe. And all indicators seem to point to "yes". I know people used to, and still do, make the joke that all of the stars are WWE cast offs or WCW mainstays, but it seems like every time someone comes along to break that mold, be it Joe, AJ, or Abyss, TNA decides to get WACKY with the booking. Hmm, Joe is over as a monster, let's let Angle neuter him for a long time, adding NOTHING to Angle, and when he finally does win, it'll be too late to really give a rat's ass. Abyss? Unstoppable machine? Baulderdash! Let's stop him on a weekly basis. Whose turn is it to beat the crap out of him this week and throw thumbtacks covered in burning glass or something at him? DOOF! AJ? Phenomenal? Okay, let's treat him like he's a 15 year old in all of our promos, and make him Kurt Angle's houseboy for a long time. They're fixing SOME of it with Frontline, but when your team has 4 times as many members, playing the underdog means you're a joke to the booking team. Where the HELL are Creed and the others when a beatdown is happening? It's not like TNA BOOKED them. What, they tired from all of that wrestling they didn't do? They too focused on that match they don't have coming up? I'm sorry if it's been a bit much, but there is no kayfabe reason they can't watch each other's back. If Steiner, one of the slowest men in today's wrestling, can mosey on down to the ring at 1.5 miles per decade, I think Jay Lethal could possibly show up on time. I agree with everything in this post, and it pretty much illustrates my main problems with TNA.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 31, 2008 5:55:01 GMT -5
Thanks, Spanky. I needed to let it all out.
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Celgress
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Post by Celgress on Dec 31, 2008 10:43:42 GMT -5
I don't agree (shocking I know). They had Joe feud with Kurt Angle for over a year and finally prove he could out think and out wrestle one of the sports best ever only to turn around and basically admit he had no idea what he was doing and get suckered by Kevin Nash. I think it made Joe look stupid after all the build. *Thumbs WAY UP* I couldn't have put it better myself. Besides, while Nash is a good promo guy, I hate his slow ad sloppy in ring work. As such any angle that ends with a Nash match is a bad one IMHO. I've also just never found the guy funny, or of any real use, in general.
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Celgress
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Post by Celgress on Dec 31, 2008 10:47:50 GMT -5
I'm not sure I'd say that Joe's been buried. I'd definitely say they've screwed up with him, though. I agree. I think the second they put him against Angle right when Angle came in, they only went down from there. Indeed, a close Joe win, or even draw, against Angle would have meant alot in their first match. It would have helped Joe, and if booked right, not have done any damage to Kurt IMHO.
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hollywood
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Post by hollywood on Dec 31, 2008 12:35:10 GMT -5
I'm not sure I'd say that Joe's been buried. I'd definitely say they've screwed up with him, though. I agree. I think the second they put him against Angle right when Angle came in, they only went down from there. Exactly. The biggest thing to hurt Joe was Kurt Angle. His sheer presence just overshadowed everything Joe had done in the fans' eyes and, it would seem, in TNA's. I've gone over this before, but Joe ran roughshod over damn near everyone in TNA, including the World Champ at one point (Jeff Jarrett). He kicked ass. He took names. And he became TNA's biggest breakout star. Possibly bigger than their first one, AJ Styles. And everyone was wondering...who'll be the first to topple him? Then, Angle marched in and, less than a month after his debut, made him tap out clean in less than 15 minutes. That one moment ended all of Joe's momentum. And nothing has managed to get it back, not even a World Title win. Of course, it also doesn't help that he's been horrendously booked ever since. And that most definitely includes every damn thing involving Kevin Nash. Seriously, the guy's never been anything but a dead weight around Joe's and TNA's collective necks. (Oh, and on the offchance it comes up...yes, that includes those idiotic X-Division skits.)
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Celgress
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Post by Celgress on Dec 31, 2008 12:56:33 GMT -5
I agree. I think the second they put him against Angle right when Angle came in, they only went down from there. Then, Angle marched in and, less than a month after his debut, made him tap out clean in less than 15 minutes. That one moment ended all of Joe's momentum. And nothing has managed to get it back, not even a World Title win. The above paragraph sums the roots of the whole devaluation of Joe's character up in a nice nutshell, bravo!
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