|
Post by quantum on Oct 12, 2009 11:42:21 GMT -5
The "household name" argument doesn't hold water for me. Austin might be well known, but of all those people who are going to buy a ticket to a show if his name shows up on a marquee? Few, because most the people who know who he is are not wrestling fans. He was like Hogan, the face of the company when wrestling was hot. Compare that to Ric Flair, everyone who knows who he is are wrestling fans. Therefore, he'll get people to the show. Austin might draw and get a few extra viewers, but it will be because of passing interest. People know who Dane Cook is, but if I want to see a comedy show I'll go see Jim Gaffigan. Same deal. If I want to see somebody hobble around the ring screaming "ass" every other word and hit someone with a sloppy stunner, I'll see Austin. If I want to see an actual match, regardless of quality, I'll go see Flair because at least he's trying. Are you serious with that answer? He's got Ultimate Warrior in his sig so I suspect not
|
|
|
Post by quantum on Oct 12, 2009 11:44:30 GMT -5
Sorry but no if Flair was bigger than Austin and more of a draw than Austin was during his prime NWA and Jim Crockett Promotions would have been bigger than WWF was during the biggest boom in wrestling history during the 90's. NWA and Jim Crockett Promotions was not that big outside of their territory and Flair was never really that big of a draw. I think your missing the point when the emphasis is on how big Austin was and how big a draw he was for the WWF who were a sinking ship before Austin caught fire. Flair was the biggest draw for Jim Crockett Promotions which went under and didn;lt draw as WWF champion when he came in.WCW hit it;s boom with the NWO in 1996 and Flair was a mid carder during those years. What a wrestler draws outside of the ring matters also and how well recognized he is in the mainstream also matters as this shows how far the wrestler has brought the company he is working for and wrestling in general. It is not everything but it does matter a great deal. I was not trying to say Flair was bigger in his prime than Austin was in his prime. I thought I saw someone say when Austin was in his prime he was bigger at that moment than Flair was in the same moment. Perhaps I read that wrong, cruising the forums via my phone makes me less likely to spend time to check. If that is what was said I felt the need to point out that during Flair's prime Austin was unknown so Austin being bigger during the Austin 316 era didn't mean much to me OK no bother but your still completly missing the point.
|
|
|
Post by quantum on Oct 12, 2009 11:53:46 GMT -5
People know who Dane Cook is, but if I want to see a comedy show I'll go see Jim Gaffigan. Same deal. If I want to see somebody hobble around the ring screaming "ass" every other word and hit someone with a sloppy stunner, I'll see Austin. If I want to see an actual match, regardless of quality, I'll go see Flair because at least he's trying. You're mixing personal preference with who actually had a bigger impact, and trust me Austin brought a whole lot more than "passing interest". There are a lot of wrestlers on the roster today that were inspired by him, not to say a legion of fans he brought in, that still watch the product. You aren't giving Austin his due. Austin Helped make HHH (who helped make Batista and Orton among others), The Rock (one of the biggest names in main stream wrestling), establish Mr McMahon as one of the biggest heels in pro wrestling ever (and had a legendary storyline with McMahon which many fans say is the best storyline of all time and many wrestlers in and out of the business say that The Rock VS Austin or Austin VS The Corroption was the best rival in pro wrestling history), he helped establish Bret Hart as a heel (an again one of the best ever in the business in the USA VS Canada storyline again another many fans say is one of the best in wrestling history). He helped establish a new genre in pro wrestling and new era of 'attitude'. He geared the WWF and wrestling towards the biggest attendacane and buy rates in pro wrestling history and took WWF out of the red and made them into a million dollar business yet again in the hottest period ever in wrestling. Flairs greatest accomplishments was being part of the Four Horsemen and putting Sting over. Who when push came to shove was not a massive deal or draw either and if Flair (or Sting) were two very important wrestlers WCW would have had no reason to bring in Hogan (Hall and Nash) and push Flair down to mid card to help establish them as the new number one company in pro wrestling and help gear wrestling towards the biggest boom and hottest period in wrestling.
|
|
|
Post by poi zen rana on Oct 12, 2009 11:55:37 GMT -5
I was not trying to say Flair was bigger in his prime than Austin was in his prime. I thought I saw someone say when Austin was in his prime he was bigger at that moment than Flair was in the same moment. Perhaps I read that wrong, cruising the forums via my phone makes me less likely to spend time to check. If that is what was said I felt the need to point out that during Flair's prime Austin was unknown so Austin being bigger during the Austin 316 era didn't mean much to me OK no bother but your still completly missing the point. Haha you don't bother me. Also I just found the post that triggered my above response. Austin was taking the world by storm when Flair was washed up in the mid card in WCW which was a sinking ship. this is the argument I find has little merit. By this same argument when Flair was in his prime Austin was much less than a midcarder in WCW. Does that belittle anything Austin did? No of course not. But it also doesn't belittle Flair either. I also take exception to your next argument from that post where you somehow used Flair wrestling past his prime as an argument against his importance. This makes zero sense to me and if Austin returned in 20 years and was beyond horrible, it wouldn't really change his importance one bit. So what point am I missing? I have barely even begun to state why I think Flair is more important, I have merely been pointing out some arguments I find flawed. So what am I missing?
|
|
|
Post by quantum on Oct 12, 2009 12:12:08 GMT -5
OK no bother but your still completely missing the point. Haha you don't bother me. Also I just found the post that triggered my above response. Austin was taking the world by storm when Flair was washed up in the mid card in WCW which was a sinking ship. this is the argument I find has little merit. By this same argument when Flair was in his prime Austin was much less than a midcarder in WCW. Does that belittle anything Austin did? No of course not. But it also doesn't belittle Flair either. I also take exception to your next argument from that post where you somehow used Flair wrestling past his prime as an argument against his importance. This makes zero sense to me and if Austin returned in 20 years and was beyond horrible, it wouldn't really change his importance one bit. So what point am I missing? I have barely even begun to state why I think Flair is more important, I have merely been pointing out some arguments I find flawed. So what am I missing? The point is not so much that Austin was massive in his prime and during The Attitude Era it was what Austin meant to the company he was working for. If Austin had not came about when he did and the WWF did not find what the fans wanted which Austin had they would have went out of business. WWF go out of business without Austin. Austin almost single handedly saved WWF from going under and lead them towards their biggest boom in history. That;ls how important he was. Jim Crockett Promotions years earlier who Flair was the main draw for (Flair was almost like WWFs Austin) went out of business. Flair was not important enough to the fans. Also if Austin had not came along when he did and WWF went out of business. Chances are same thing would have happened as it did in real life in 2001 to WCW with the AOL merger. Without Austin their would be no wrestling in America (no huge number one company). No Monday Night Wars and no 90;s Attitude Era boom. There fore it wouldn;t matter how big an influence Flair was as their would be no company for wrestlers tom make a living out of wrestling as if their was no WWF and WCW. The Indies would not be whwre they are now either and also ECW would have still went out of business regardless. The point to Austin in his prime VS Flair in his prime was that Flair was already starting to tarnish his own legacy by the point t Austin was taking the wrestling world by storm. Also the way you wrote it you did say that Flair was bigger than Austin was in his prime. Austin bowed out gracefully (forced or not) Flair kept wrestling well past his prime which does tarnish his over all career and also importance to pro wrestling.
|
|
|
Post by Ultimo Chocula on Oct 12, 2009 12:13:23 GMT -5
Are you serious with that answer? He's got Ultimate Warrior in his sig so I suspect not I might have been a bit broad with that answer but my point is the same. Being a household name does not equate success. Mainstream audiences lost interest in Austin, and that's who The Attitude era was geared toward. We wrestling fans had our fun but make no mistake, Vince was going for mainstream appeal first and foremost. Austin was a big part of that. He gave wrestling a boom for a short period of time and that's all. Once the Attitude era was over, so was Austin.
|
|
BxB
Unicron
Only the shift key stands between him and copyright infringement.
Posts: 2,849
|
Post by BxB on Oct 12, 2009 12:26:27 GMT -5
That's funny. Austin still gets huge pops whenever he shows up, and was always voted in by the fans as a guest ref during those Cyber Sunday polls. How exaclty is he done? He left wrestling because he was physically no longer capable of going through the stress wrestling takes on ones body. Hell, the guy even has a couple of movies coming up. While Ric Flair couldn't even pay the loan he owed to highspots. If anything, wouldn't that case be made for Flair?
|
|
|
Post by poi zen rana on Oct 12, 2009 12:30:58 GMT -5
quantum please explain to me how Austin coming back and wrestling horrible matches would diminish how important he was to the Attotude Era. You can argue it would taint his overall legacy but I fail to see how it could change how important he was in bringing in fans.
Please let me know.
Also just because some people say the WWE would be out of business and nothing would ever take it's place without Austin does not make it true. I personally don't buy it. Without Austin perhaps they could have never found someone to fill the Austin role, and perhaps they would not have made as much money but I don't believe that it would have killed them. I also don't believe it would be the end of American wrestling.
I am all for being convinced though so people who believe this, show me why.
|
|
|
Post by Ultimo Chocula on Oct 12, 2009 12:45:59 GMT -5
That's funny. Austin still gets huge pops whenever he shows up, and was always voted in by the fans as a guest ref during those Cyber Sunday polls. How exaclty is he done? He left wrestling because he was physically no longer capable of going through the stress wrestling takes on ones body. Hell, the guy even has a couple of movies coming up. While Ric Flair couldn't even pay the loan he owed to highspots. If anything, wouldn't that case be made for Flair? The question is WHY does he show up? Is he trying to help the business or collect a paycheck? Does he put anyone over? The pop he gets are from WWE fans, not from the casual fans that Vince and Austin were trying to win during the Attitude era. If Austin shows up in ROH and he gets the reception Flair got then that's one point for you. As far as Austin's movie career goes, last I checked The Condemned got pretty bad reviews and those who did show up to the theater were still wrestling fans first and foremost, not the mainstream audience. I don't know a single person who's seen that film, mark or not.
|
|
BxB
Unicron
Only the shift key stands between him and copyright infringement.
Posts: 2,849
|
Post by BxB on Oct 12, 2009 13:09:11 GMT -5
That's funny. Austin still gets huge pops whenever he shows up, and was always voted in by the fans as a guest ref during those Cyber Sunday polls. How exaclty is he done? He left wrestling because he was physically no longer capable of going through the stress wrestling takes on ones body. Hell, the guy even has a couple of movies coming up. While Ric Flair couldn't even pay the loan he owed to highspots. If anything, wouldn't that case be made for Flair? The question is WHY does he show up? Is he trying to help the business or collect a paycheck? Does he put anyone over? The pop he gets are from WWE fans, not from the casual fans that Vince and Austin were trying to win during the Attitude era. If Austin shows up in ROH and he gets the reception Flair got then that's one point for you. As far as Austin's movie career goes, last I checked The Condemned got pretty bad reviews and those who did show up to the theater were still wrestling fans first and foremost, not the mainstream audience. I don't know a single person who's seen that film, mark or not. I'm sorry, dude. Are you serious? Did you just question Austin's passion for the business and mention Flair's stint in ROH at the same time? Have you even seen the promos Ric Flair has done in ROH? I'm a huge fan of ROH, and I have most of their DVD's from this year. All Flair does is come out and toot his own horn about how many women he can bed and how back in the day he was so big in the city the show's at. How is that putting anyone over? Not to forget how he walked out during Manhatten Mayhem III. Flair is no saint and I bet you Austin would get a huge pop in ROH, just like Hogan would.
|
|
repomark
Unicron
For Mash Get Smash
Posts: 3,072
|
Post by repomark on Oct 12, 2009 13:47:28 GMT -5
QUOTE "The "household name" argument doesn't hold water for me. Austin might be well known, but of all those people who are going to buy a ticket to a show if his name shows up on a marquee? Few, because most the people who know who he is are not wrestling fans. He was like Hogan, the face of the company when wrestling was hot. Compare that to Ric Flair, everyone who knows who he is are wrestling fans. Therefore, he'll get people to the show. Austin might draw and get a few extra viewers, but it will be because of passing interest." END QUOTE It was not as if all of Austin's fans were casual fans, the diehard wrestling fans loved him also. He is still a huge name and a draw even now when he appears in a non wrestling capacity which proves he was no "fad" as some have said. Your argument actually supports the household name point. You have said Flair will attract wrestling fans to the show and to watch the show. Austin would get that ASWELL as the casual fans and the mainstream interest. Anything that promotes wrestling to a wider audience and makes it credible to more people and therefore attracts more lasting fans is a good thing - and Austin did this. Also it has been said in one post that anything outwith the industry is not important in terms of judging its impact. This is in my opinion the reason why in the mainstream media and within the general populous, wrestling fans are regarded as such lepers. It almost makes us sound like some form of clandestine masonic order where by we cant possibly let anyone else in because they are not one of us. Of course attracting mainstream attention and more fans to the product is causing an impact in terms of the history of the business. This is why the household name argument holds water as Flair, as much as I think he did have a huge influence on the business, never had that impact on the mainstream. I do think a lot of people appear to be taking this WAY too seriously though - as has been said it is entirely down to personal opinion. Both guys had an impact - the rest is just down to what you think and you are never going to change someones view who prefers one guy to another, or thinks one guy had a bigger impact than the other.
|
|
|
Post by JerryvonKramer on Oct 12, 2009 15:47:56 GMT -5
All Flair does is come out and toot his own horn about how many women he can bed and how back in the day he was so big in the city the show's at. Dude, have you ever seen a Flair promo?
|
|
|
Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Oct 12, 2009 16:15:24 GMT -5
"None of these threads are fair to Flair!"
|
|
|
Post by Dynamite Kid on Oct 12, 2009 16:36:45 GMT -5
For wrestling: Flair.
For me: Austin.
|
|
|
Post by DamnYankee on Oct 12, 2009 16:47:05 GMT -5
To answer your question, Stone Cold was more important to the wrestling business. If it weren't for Austin, there may have not been a WWE today. Plain and simple.
|
|
|
Post by wasimperviz on Oct 12, 2009 18:00:54 GMT -5
OK no bother but your still completly missing the point. Haha you don't bother me. Also I just found the post that triggered my above response. Austin was taking the world by storm when Flair was washed up in the mid card in WCW which was a sinking ship. this is the argument I find has little merit. By this same argument when Flair was in his prime Austin was much less than a midcarder in WCW. Does that belittle anything Austin did? No of course not. But it also doesn't belittle Flair either. I also take exception to your next argument from that post where you somehow used Flair wrestling past his prime as an argument against his importance. This makes zero sense to me and if Austin returned in 20 years and was beyond horrible, it wouldn't really change his importance one bit. So what point am I missing? I have barely even begun to state why I think Flair is more important, I have merely been pointing out some arguments I find flawed. So what am I missing? If you take Austin at his peak and take Flair when he was at his peak and who meant more to wrestling then the answer is still Austin. Flair did mean a lot just not as much as Austin.
|
|
|
Post by Brother Ike: Thread Killer on Oct 12, 2009 18:05:20 GMT -5
Big fans of both men and both clearly had huge impacts on the business. However I have to look at who had more of a positive impact on the business. In that sense I would go with flair, since while Austin did pretty much save the WWF and launch the Attitude era, It seems like we are still feeling the effects of the attitude era to this day and it is mainly responsible for McMahon's current desire to be nothing but full blown "sports entertainment".
|
|
|
Post by triplealbert on Oct 12, 2009 18:13:58 GMT -5
That's funny. Austin still gets huge pops whenever he shows up, and was always voted in by the fans as a guest ref during those Cyber Sunday polls. How exaclty is he done? He left wrestling because he was physically no longer capable of going through the stress wrestling takes on ones body. Hell, the guy even has a couple of movies coming up. While Ric Flair couldn't even pay the loan he owed to highspots. If anything, wouldn't that case be made for Flair? The question is WHY does he show up? Is he trying to help the business or collect a paycheck? Does he put anyone over? The pop he gets are from WWE fans, not from the casual fans that Vince and Austin were trying to win during the Attitude era. If Austin shows up in ROH and he gets the reception Flair got then that's one point for you. As far as Austin's movie career goes, last I checked The Condemned got pretty bad reviews and those who did show up to the theater were still wrestling fans first and foremost, not the mainstream audience. I don't know a single person who's seen that film, mark or not. Yeah, if Austin showed up in ROH the roof would blow off the place.
|
|
|
Post by tarheelfan on Oct 12, 2009 19:37:36 GMT -5
Big fans of both men and both clearly had huge impacts on the business. However I have to look at who had more of a positive impact on the business. In that sense I would go with flair, since while Austin did pretty much save the WWF and launch the Attitude era, It seems like we are still feeling the effects of the attitude era to this day and it is mainly responsible for McMahon's current desire to be nothing but full blown "sports entertainment". Superb post. And one could argue that if Austin had not became so popular that even with no WWE that wrestling may actually be stronger in America today and not having to put up with the quite frankly inferior garbage that sports entertainment is. IMHO, Austin did not attract fans to wrestling because of his in ring kills(although he was a good technical wrestler as Stunning Steve Austin in WCW). But Austin brought in a massive influx of 18-35 year old demographics who otherwise were not wrestling viewers but only watched the Attitude Era for shock television. The Stone Cold character was a gimmick that basically won over viewers by taking a lot of the focus off of wrestling and delving into profanity and vulgarity. That alone is going to attract an influx of the young rebellious male demographics. In the end WWE did not beat WCW by wrestling alone but WWE beat WCW because they basically turned into a wrestling show that became more of a MTV style/type show that obviously will attract fans not into wrestling. And most of the fans who worshipped the Stone Cold character could care less about wrestling now while the true fans like myself who have watched for many years are feeling the negative affects of the Attitude Era now. Maybe I am biased on the issue because I grew up in the old territory days but one could argue that Stone Cold saving the WWE in an ironic way was bad for wrestling in the longterm. Which is why in 20/20 hindsight now that Flairs legacy will stand the test of time over the years whereas the Stone Cold legacy will be seen for what it was worth- a cheap frills gimmick. And someone can say that Hogans character was a gimmick but Hogan did not have to resort to crudeness and vulgarity to get ratings. Yes, one will get cheap ratings by using filthy communication but it takes true talents like Hogan and Flair to connect to fans without having to use shock television.
|
|
BxB
Unicron
Only the shift key stands between him and copyright infringement.
Posts: 2,849
|
Post by BxB on Oct 13, 2009 2:45:09 GMT -5
All Flair does is come out and toot his own horn about how many women he can bed and how back in the day he was so big in the city the show's at. Dude, have you ever seen a Flair promo? Do you understand they paid him top money to be their ambassador and he said nothing in his promo's that helped the product?
|
|