@TenaciousBe
Hank Scorpio
Guess who's back... back again
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Post by @TenaciousBe on Dec 27, 2009 18:04:13 GMT -5
You know... I've been one to decry Raw for being nothing but a modern day version of the Gong Show, and for "reverting" to this family friendly thing...
But the more I think of it, the more I realize it's not really their fault (or Snitsky's). Look at the times in which we live. When I watch a Raw from the late 90's, it feels so out of place with today's world. In the late 90's, we were still riding the end of the Gen X movement, when being that bad-ass anti-hero was still something hip and fresh. What's hip and fresh today? Nothing. There hasn't been a real movement of any kind since Gen X died out, and we're left with a void. The music world is the same way, we've just been riding the wave from the last musical revolution (grunge) and everything is getting less and less fresh. Our world in 2009 has nothing new to offer, aside from technology and microblogging but that's nothing to build music or wrestling around.
Pro wrestling, as a whole (but especially WWE), has become boring and complacent. And it's because our popular culture, as a whole, has become boring and complacent.
Agree? Disagree?
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AriadosMan
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Post by AriadosMan on Dec 27, 2009 18:15:24 GMT -5
Its worth noting that WWE was only truly PG since 2008. I don't think its so much a reaction to the culture at large as it is an adjustment to the reality that most adults just don't watch wrestling anymore, unless they're with little kids. UFC has successfully devoured the older audience that watched WWF/WCW during the Monday Night Wars. And even when it was TV-14, who were two of the most popular guys? Cena and Jeff Hardy. A lot of kids watched during Attitude too, its just that they weren't the only big audience bloc like today. I don't like alot of the stuff that McMahon does to try to attract kids (it seems more "Captain N" than "Batman TAS") but there's no denying it is an attempt to adjust to the basic reality of the situation. Most adults got bored with wrestling long before the WWE became "kiddie". The only adults who even notice it are the "hardcore" audience left over from Attitude and earlier that still follows it...us.
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Post by forgottensinpwf on Dec 27, 2009 18:20:50 GMT -5
You know... I've been one to decry Raw for being nothing but a modern day version of the Gong Show, and for "reverting" to this family friendly thing... But the more I think of it, the more I realize it's not really their fault (or Snitsky's). Look at the times in which we live. When I watch a Raw from the late 90's, it feels so out of place with today's world. In the late 90's, we were still riding the end of the Gen X movement, when being that bad-ass anti-hero was still something hip and fresh. What's hip and fresh today? Nothing. There hasn't been a real movement of any kind since Gen X died out, and we're left with a void. The music world is the same way, we've just been riding the wave from the last musical revolution (grunge) and everything is getting less and less fresh. Our world in 2009 has nothing new to offer, aside from technology and microblogging but that's nothing to build music or wrestling around. Pro wrestling, as a whole (but especially WWE), has become boring and complacent. And it's because our popular culture, as a whole, has become boring and complacent. Agree? Disagree? Couldn't agree more. I also feel that, other than Raw, the product's wrestling quality has greatly improved over the storylines, whereas the Attitude era was "more Shock Value, less wrestling quality". |
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Post by wrestlecrapcrap on Dec 27, 2009 18:24:14 GMT -5
Agree to an extent.
Personally I watch every week, and I don't think it's boring. I don't think they're being complacent either, it's just that, as you say, there's nothing to latch on to in order to capture the casuals. I watch wrestling a decade ago and it's the same format, it's just the characters are different, and I 'bought into it' more then. Now I enjoy myself but for different reasons. Because I partly know how it works, I accept it from that perspective.
They have no overall movement that they can tie themselves in with, so where the product looks like it has no overall direction, it's really just them doing the best they can. Going back to what they know, which is that they know if they attract the kids, they will always have fans. The casuals are a bonus.
JR, with the way he talks about Orton's popularity on his blogs, seems to think that today's fanbase is 'defiant' and maybe he's right. Cena has been top dog since 2005, so maybe they considered that year the start of a push to get 6-8 year olds back. Maybe 2010-12 sometime we will see Cena turn on his fans, who are now hitting their teens, and Orton positioned as top dog. Then maybe 8 or so years after that we see another push to get kids again. Maybe it's a cycle of making sure you have a base of kids, and then satisfy them through their teenage years, before going back to the kids because you have to make sure there's that base again.
I'm not sure if the general push in society is 'defiancy' though. I can't put my finger on what it is if not though. Defiancy just sounds too much like what attitude was built off. If not defiancy though, then what?
Being patriotic? There's a war on terror - is that it?
Reality TV - That's now dying down - should Miz have been the poster boy of the last 5 years?
MMA - Should the company try and go more realistic - or does this move away from their own uniqueness as a product? With Sheamus winning quickly, are they trying to show that you can move quickly in their sport just as you can in MMA?
Apathy towards politians - the expenses scandal in the UK...can this be incorporated anyhow?
It's tough to think - if anyone else had any suggestions it would be good to hear, because it could be a real interesting debate about what exactly the company should latch onto if they wanted to reflect society.
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AriadosMan
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Your friendly neighborhood superhero
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Post by AriadosMan on Dec 27, 2009 18:46:03 GMT -5
Agree to an extent. Personally I watch every week, and I don't think it's boring. I don't think they're being complacent either, it's just that, as you say, there's nothing to latch on to in order to capture the casuals. I watch wrestling a decade ago and it's the same format, it's just the characters are different, and I 'bought into it' more then. Now I enjoy myself but for different reasons. Because I partly know how it works, I accept it from that perspective. They have no overall movement that they can tie themselves in with, so where the product looks like it has no overall direction, it's really just them doing the best they can. Going back to what they know, which is that they know if they attract the kids, they will always have fans. The casuals are a bonus. JR, with the way he talks about Orton's popularity on his blogs, seems to think that today's fanbase is 'defiant' and maybe he's right. Cena has been top dog since 2005, so maybe they considered that year the start of a push to get 6-8 year olds back. Maybe 2010-12 sometime we will see Cena turn on his fans, who are now hitting their teens, and Orton positioned as top dog. Then maybe 8 or so years after that we see another push to get kids again. Maybe it's a cycle of making sure you have a base of kids, and then satisfy them through their teenage years, before going back to the kids because you have to make sure there's that base again. I'm not sure if the general push in society is 'defiancy' though. I can't put my finger on what it is if not though. Defiancy just sounds too much like what attitude was built off. If not defiancy though, then what? 1.Being patriotic? There's a war on terror - is that it? 2. Reality TV - That's now dying down - should Miz have been the poster boy of the last 5 years? 3. MMA - Should the company try and go more realistic - or does this move away from their own uniqueness as a product? With Sheamus winning quickly, are they trying to show that you can move quickly in their sport just as you can in MMA? 4. Apathy towards politians - the expenses scandal in the UK...can this be incorporated anyhow? It's tough to think - if anyone else had any suggestions it would be good to hear, because it could be a real interesting debate about what exactly the company should latch onto if they wanted to reflect society. 1. Steiner/Nowinski and Muhammad Hassan. Both disasters. 2. No, Miz shouldn't have been THE guy, but I actually like alot now and would vastly prefer him as an ME over Orton. 3. No. Sheamus was badly needed since Y2J is confined to one brand and JBL is retired. RAW needed a new ME heel. Incorporating some MMA holds and giving submissions a 70% effective "victim rate" would be as far as WWE should go in being like MMA. Trying to self-consciously look like UFC in every way would just get people to accuse WWE of ripping off something popular. 4. Most certainly NOT if the reactions to Al Sharpton and Dennis Miller are anything to go by. Orton will never, EVER be THE guy, regardless of what JR says. Orton, Punk, y2J and even Miz are more effective as heels than him. If Sheamus pulls off "rampaging monster" successfully, you can add him to the list. Its not that Orton's matches are bad, he has a dull and monotonous persona. Dude would have been a lackey some faction if this roster had 1999-quality promo cutting talent. |
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Post by Lionheart on Dec 27, 2009 18:58:49 GMT -5
I would just like to point out that "defiancy" is not a word.
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AriadosMan
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by AriadosMan on Dec 27, 2009 19:06:16 GMT -5
I would just like to point out that "defiancy" is not a word. Defiance is the correct phrase. An how would fans be "defiant" if they got behind someone as groomed for their current position as Orton? |
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Dec 27, 2009 19:17:34 GMT -5
Orton will never, EVER be THE guy, regardless of what JR says. Orton, Punk, y2J and even Miz are more effective as heels than him. If Sheamus pulls off "rampaging monster" successfully, you can add him to the list. Its not that Orton's matches are bad, he has a dull and monotonous persona. Dude would have been a lackey some faction if this roster had 1999-quality promo cutting talent. But... Orton's hot. Like I watched for the first time in ten years last week, because of this Bret thing they're building to, and I found it very hard to take my eyes off of Orton. I think he might have an effect on other females too. |
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Post by Slingshot Suplay on Dec 27, 2009 19:27:47 GMT -5
I would just like to point out that "defiancy" is not a word. Defiance is the correct phrase. An how would fans be "defiant" if they got behind someone as groomed for their current position as Orton? Maybe defiant because they are rooting for the villan instead of the hero. I know JR said the crowd was "defiant" during that WM22 match between Mickie James and Trish, where the crowd was supporting Mikcie and booing Trish. |
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Post by The Verdict on Dec 27, 2009 19:55:44 GMT -5
It should have stayed in the 80's
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Post by Stone Trolled on Dec 27, 2009 19:56:50 GMT -5
3. MMA - Should the company try and go more realistic - or does this move away from their own uniqueness as a product? With Sheamus winning quickly, are they trying to show that you can move quickly in their sport just as you can in MMA? I'll say one thing about it: If wrestlers wanna do MMA moves, they better do them right. If they can't, then they should get trained. Nothing pulls me out of a match more these days than some sloppy-ass armbar. |
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Post by Enrico Palazzo on Dec 27, 2009 21:59:11 GMT -5
Orton will never, EVER be THE guy, regardless of what JR says. Orton, Punk, y2J and even Miz are more effective as heels than him. Orton is more effective than Orton?  |
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Paco
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Post by Paco on Dec 27, 2009 22:07:56 GMT -5
I made this same argument on another board (or was it this one?). WWE tends to be product of the times. Where's the money going? Late 90's: Jerry Springer, Raunchy South Park, Limp Bizkit & rap-metal. We're angry and edgy! Late 00's: Hannah Montana, High School Musical, Jonas Bros. Fun for the whole family! South park still raunchy but with a message or clear topical parody  |
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MolotovMocktail
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Post by MolotovMocktail on Dec 27, 2009 22:08:15 GMT -5
WWE's problems have very little to do with being PG. In the 80's and early 90's, the WWF was primarily PG, and we generally enjoyed that. I got to thinking what made wrestling lose its Attitude-Era luster, and it seems that wrestling's decline came around the time of the reality show explosion, so people started going elsewhere for raunch and sex. To that end, wrestling couldn't rely on shock value alone to bring in viewers. They really needed big-time characters to hook in fans, and as Austin, Rock, etc. left, nobody really filled the void.
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Post by Sumbody Gon' Get Dey Kneelift on Dec 27, 2009 23:35:46 GMT -5
Orton will never, EVER be THE guy, regardless of what JR says. Orton, Punk, y2J and even Miz are more effective as heels than him. If Sheamus pulls off "rampaging monster" successfully, you can add him to the list. Its not that Orton's matches are bad, he has a dull and monotonous persona. Dude would have been a lackey some faction if this roster had 1999-quality promo cutting talent. But... Orton's hot. Like I watched for the first time in ten years last week, because of this Bret thing they're building to, and I found it very hard to take my eyes off of Orton. I think he might have an effect on other females too. That, and his character is AWESOME. I don't get how people can call the character "boring" or "monotonous." Insane sociopathic snakeman? Uh... |
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Dec 27, 2009 23:42:24 GMT -5
But... Orton's hot. Like I watched for the first time in ten years last week, because of this Bret thing they're building to, and I found it very hard to take my eyes off of Orton. I think he might have an effect on other females too. That, and his character is AWESOME. I don't get how people can call the character "boring" or "monotonous." Insane sociopathic snakeman? Uh...  That'sssssss Sssssso true!* * I'm so sorry for the terribly cheesy joke. |
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Post by wildojinx on Dec 28, 2009 1:10:13 GMT -5
I made this same argument on another board (or was it this one?). WWE tends to be product of the times. Where's the money going? Late 90's: Jerry Springer, Raunchy South Park, Limp Bizkit & rap-metal. We're angry and edgy! Late 00's: Hannah Montana, High School Musical, Jonas Bros. Fun for the whole family! South park still raunchy but with a message or clear topical parody In that case, i hope Steampunk becomes huge in the 10s as i'd love to see how the wwe would jump onto THAT trend. |
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Post by Drillbit Taylor on Dec 28, 2009 1:50:19 GMT -5
I made this same argument on another board (or was it this one?). WWE tends to be product of the times. Where's the money going? Late 90's: Jerry Springer, Raunchy South Park, Limp Bizkit & rap-metal. We're angry and edgy! Late 00's: Hannah Montana, High School Musical, Jonas Bros. Fun for the whole family! South park still raunchy but with a message or clear topical parody In that case, i hope Steampunk becomes huge in the 10s as i'd love to see how the wwe would jump onto THAT trend. Think Back to the Future Part 3 and the Cartoon show. Kiddie with some Steampunk in it. Thou, that coupled with Neo Victorian we could see a villian like Spring Heeled Jack |
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AriadosMan
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Your friendly neighborhood superhero
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Post by AriadosMan on Dec 28, 2009 1:51:26 GMT -5
I made this same argument on another board (or was it this one?). WWE tends to be product of the times. Where's the money going? Late 90's: Jerry Springer, Raunchy South Park, Limp Bizkit & rap-metal. We're angry and edgy! Late 00's: Hannah Montana, High School Musical, Jonas Bros. Fun for the whole family! South park still raunchy but with a message or clear topical parody In that case, i hope Steampunk becomes huge in the 10s as i'd love to see how the wwe would jump onto THAT trend. Really huge push for Paul Burchill as a Sherlock Holmes knockoff character? |
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Dave at the Movies
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Post by Dave at the Movies on Dec 28, 2009 2:26:37 GMT -5
I completely agree for the most part. This decade has been a very dry zombiefied one when it comes to pop culture. I honestly think the next step in Pro Wrestling's evolution is to go for more of a Ring Of Honor feel mixed in with the sport entertainment side of it and I think it will happen in this new decade. TNA showing signs of possibly being big competition soon I think helps show that this theory is very possible.
ECW was a big influence on the Trash and Crash TV that WWF did in the late 90s. The late 90s in all was a big period for generation X themed things in pop culture. For examples you had stuff on TV that was very edgy in shows like NYPD Blue, South Park, Jerry Springer, and many others. I think in the same way ECW influenced the Attitude Era, ROH will influence where wrestling is going towards today. A more athletic art form rather than just entertainment which WWE currently is. WWE signing ROH guys like CM Punk and Evan Bourne I think are great examples that support my theory here.
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