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Post by JerryvonKramer on Nov 15, 2009 17:38:18 GMT -5
Guys with all four
Randy Savage Kurt Angle Eddie Guerrero Steve Austin -- why hasn't anyone mentioned the matches with Bret circa 96/7 yet? He was a great worker. Mr. Perfect Shawn Michaels Edge Chris Jericho (although nowadays he doesn't have the look anymore)
Guys with the look, the work, the talk but NOT the charisma
Arn Anderson Nick Bockwinkel Lex Luger (if you only take his work pre-93) Barry Windham Owen Hart
Guys with the look, the work, the charisma but NOT the talk
Sting The Undertaker (although for a good few years he didn't have the work either) Bret Hart Paul Orndorff Ricky Steamboat Vader Rick Martel Yokozuna
Guys with the look, the talk, the charisma but NOT the work
Hulk Hogan The Rock Scott Hall Kevin Nash Rick Rude Jesse Ventura Superstar Billy Graham Goldberg
Guys with the work, the talk, the charisma but NOT the look
Ric Flair Ted DiBiase Tully Blanchard Terry Funk Mick Foley Christian
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Post by Bubble Lead on Nov 15, 2009 19:11:55 GMT -5
Off the top of my head, guys with all four: Angle, Foley, Austin, Rock, Hogan, HBK, Flair, Hennig, Jake Roberts, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Jericho, Scott Hall, Hogan, Dibiase, Raven, Dusty Rhodes, Terry Funk, Piper, Savage. Look at that list. All those guys were huge successes in their own right and top draws for the most part. A few of them were not as much a success as they could have been due to their personal problems. Any single one of those guys either were or could be the top guy in any promotion though. I will agree with you on most however I would disagree that Foley and Terry Funk did not have the look and Dusty certainly did not either. That's one of the main reasons Dusty and Funk did not go to far when they were with the WWF. They did not have the correct look that a wrestler should have. Also I would say that is why Foley was never presented as the man either even in his short time at the top he was playing second fiddle to two guys who had all four in Rock and Austin. Also Jericho's 'modern look' is very questionable with his gut. He did have all four I would say though a few years ago when he was more of a cruiser weight. Again I would say that's why Jericho has not gotten a bigger push and being playing second fiddle a lot of the time since his come back a few years back. Jake Roberts most certainly had all four though and can;t believe I left him off my previous list. I will agree that those guys I mentioned did not have the typical WWF superstar look, but I think if anything it added to their respective characters and gimmicks. Also, when I say they could be top guys in a promotion, I dont necessarily mean in a Hogan sense where the entire promotion is built around them, moreso that they could have money drawing title reigns or be credible challengers who could draw money feuding with anyone else on my list. I mean, obviously their look held them back in certain cases. If Dusty looked like Flair in the 80s he could have easily been a top guy in WWF but since he didn't, it held him back. Anywhere else outside of WWF he could be a top draw though. Same for Funk at the time, to a lesser extent. I think Funk could have drawn some big money as a heel challenger in WWF though, like Piper he could have talked his way into credibility.
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Post by strykerdarksilence on Nov 15, 2009 19:22:41 GMT -5
Woah...Jerry...how can you say Flair didn't have the look?
Or Rick Rude the work? Hogan here too, as his early WWF, Japan and even early WCW stuff was good.
Or Bockwinkel the charisma?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2009 19:29:46 GMT -5
Guys with all fourRandy Savage Kurt Angle Eddie Guerrero Steve Austin Mr. Perfect Shawn Michaels Chris Jericho Triple H Undertaker Kurt Angle Guys with the look, the work, the talk but NOT the charismaArn Anderson Nick Bockwinkel Lex Luger (if you only take his work pre-93) Barry Windham Owen Hart Lance Storm D-Lo Brown Guys with the look, the work, the charisma but NOT the talkSting Bret Hart Paul Orndorff Ricky Steamboat Vader Rick Martel Yokozuna Chris Benoit Taz AJ Styles Guys with the look, the talk, the charisma but NOT the workHulk Hogan The Rock Scott Hall Kevin Nash John Cena Jesse Ventura Superstar Billy Graham Batista Guys with the work, the talk, the charisma but NOT the lookRic Flair Ted DiBiase Tully Blanchard Terry Funk Mick Foley Christian MVP Samoa Joe I did my own version of Jerry's post with my view on it No Offense meant to JVK I'm just too lazy to start from scratch and edited his
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Post by strykerdarksilence on Nov 15, 2009 19:36:02 GMT -5
Again...I'm perplexed by this...how can it be said Flair didn't have the look. A huge chunk of his gimmick WAS his look. The bleached blonde long hair, athletic frame and always immaculate in and out of the ring.
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Post by Real Folk Bruce on Nov 15, 2009 21:31:08 GMT -5
Looks, work, talking, and crowd connection are the best attributes in wrestling.
Wrestlers that have all four
Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Macho Man Savage, The Rock, Steve Austin, Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Kurt Angle, The Undertaker, prime Scott Hall, Mr. Perfect, Eddie Guerrero, Roddy Piper, Chris Jericho, Booker T, Rob Van Dam.
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Post by TripleMerc on Nov 16, 2009 2:08:02 GMT -5
Guys with the look, the work, the talk but NOT the charismaNick Bockwinkel Guys with the look, the work, the charisma but NOT the talkSting The Undertaker (although for a good few years he didn't have the work either) Vader Guys with the look, the talk, the charisma but NOT the workScott Hall Rick Rude Guys with the work, the talk, the charisma but NOT the lookRic Flair Ted DiBiase Terry Funk Mick Foley These choices confuse me. Bockwinkel was great, charismatically. Sting, The Undertaker and Vader all HAVE the talk, they just don't need to talk. I think there's a big difference. Hall could definitely work a good match, as could Martel, and Flair, DiBiase, Funk and Foley all had ICONIC looks that shaped their persona and made them stars!
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Post by quantum on Nov 16, 2009 5:15:26 GMT -5
Guys with all fourSteve Austin -- why hasn't anyone mentioned the matches with Bret circa 96/7 yet? He was a great worker. Guys with the look, the work, the talk but NOT the charismaLex Luger (if you only take his work pre-93) Owen Hart Guys with the look, the work, the charisma but NOT the talkThe Undertaker (although for a good few years he didn't have the work either) Bret Hart Rick Martel Yokozuna Guys with the look, the talk, the charisma but NOT the workHulk Hogan Scott Hall Rick Rude Guys with the work, the talk, the charisma but NOT the lookRic Flair Ted DiBiase These choices highly confuse me. I did mention Stone Cold on my previous list. Bret Hart was awesome on the mic once he turned heel and was good before. Owen Hart had charisma as did Lex Luger. Undertakers character is excellent on the mic and has been for over a decade now. Rick Martel was decent on the mic Yokozunna's character called for a manger to do his talking that;s why he hired Jim Cornette. He however did lack charisma. Hulk Hogans ring work was excellent in Japan and his character called for limited move set in U.S. Scott Hall and Rick Rude were both excellent workers. Not saying Ted DiBiase and Ric Flair have the look wow a lot of their gimmick was based on there look. Also what made the Austin VS Hart fued so awesome in 97 was Bret Hart on the mic.
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Post by JerryvonKramer on Nov 16, 2009 5:30:10 GMT -5
^ To the two above posters confused by my choices. I should note a couple of things.
I took having "the ____" to mean being amazing at that one thing, not just solid, but one of the best. I'm talking ***** or very close.
So while it is true, for example, that Hall and Rude were decent in the ring, neither of them were on the Flair/ DiBiase "broomstick worker" sort of level. Same with Hogan. Hogan IS an underrated worker but to say he had "the work" is pushing it a bit.
Likewise, while Bret was serviceable on the mic, I don't think you'd put him up there with the Flairs, Rocks and Austins. Bret was very solid on the mic but to say he had "the talk" is pushing it.
Likewise, let's say Lex Luger has a ***** look, could you really say DiBiase did? It's true he looked GREAT as the Million Dollar Man, but he never had a great body.
Likewise, Ric Martel had great charisma but his mic skills were average at best.
Pretty much every example on my lists follow the same sort of logic.
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Post by strykerdarksilence on Nov 16, 2009 6:14:34 GMT -5
What about Flair not having the look? That's the one that really perplexed me.
Although I will say that not being 10/10 in a category doesn't mean you don't have that factor.
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on Nov 16, 2009 9:13:15 GMT -5
(I mean, it's not like you'll give a guy 9 for charisma and a 3 for talking.) Goldberg has to be one. No mic skills but heaps of charisma. RVD's another- average to good on the mic but stacks of charisma. Warrior's promos were pretty poor. Orton's very average on the stick but the way he carries himself gives him a quiet charisma. Sabu only ever spoke in 1 promo in WWECW but he had immense charisma. Taz had arguably all 4 key attributes, or at least 3. He was a great wrestler, very intense and had the manner of a star, could cut a captivating promo, and looked highly intimidating. Perhaps not a 5* look, but decent. I agree on the suggestion that presentation is important. The spectacle of entrances can be hugely important, and it's amped up to 11 in Japan in the major promotions.
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Post by quantum on Nov 16, 2009 10:13:00 GMT -5
What about Flair not having the look? That's the one that really perplexed me. Although I will say that not being 10/10 in a category doesn't mean you don't have that factor. Ya it does with me also I think Von Kramer is writing more about personal taste than actually what they did and did not have.
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