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Post by chunkylover53 on Dec 25, 2009 16:43:28 GMT -5
Is there any supertstar, past or present, who just screamed midcard to you, even when they were pushed as the top dog/World Champion?
Here are my picks....
Brock Lesnar - At least at the very beginning. Its not that he didn't have the main event look, because he did very much so. But he was pushed WAAAAAAYYY too quick. I mean, yeah, the future UFC fighter steamrolled his way into the entire roster, became the last King of The Ring(pay per view version) and did make an impact with the fans, but him facing The Rock for the WWE Championship at Summerslam was too soon. I understand The People's Champ was no longer a full-time wrestler, and a victory over him would give Lesnar the rub he needed, don't get me wrong. But when you put the WWE Championship into the picture thats just asking for too much, since he didn't have the proper build up in my opinon.
There's two ways I would've done it. 1)Have him challenge RVD to a rematch(from the previous PPV) at Summerslam for the Intercontinental Championship and have him win the title. Or 2) Defeat The Rock at that same pay per view without the World title involved(somebody else could've been champ). He could've won the WWE championship sometime in the Spring of 2003, if his overness warranted it.
I don't mind an immediate push if given to the right person at the right time, but they still need to progress(such as mid-card to World title) in some way, if you want them to be a long term investment. My thoughts were pretty much confirmed when he quit the WWE after Wrestlemania XX. He was given too much, too soon, and while he might've been impulsive and oblivious to that move, I partly blame WWE management for his eventual departure in the long run.
A similar case was with Yokozuna, who headlined a Wrestlemania and became WWF champion with not even 6 months removed from his debut. His weight spiraled out of control after that and was depushed increasingly starting from Wrestlemania X to jobbing to "Stone Cold" Steve Austin at the Summerslam 1996 pre show. If I was older at the time and had a better sense of things I wouldn't have bought the 505 pounder(at the time mind you) as WWF champion.
John Bradshaw Layfield - Definately in the beginning. Yes, The Big Texan was a veteran with the company for almost a decade, but the sudden change from Bar Room Brawler to Wall Street Businessman caught me(and many fans) off guard. Actually, it wasn't so much the change, but his World title push against Eddie Guerrero. When he won it at The Great American Bash, I was in shock, given his previous position on the card. However, in the coming months, I've grown to like the character and started to warm up to him as WWE Champion. By the turn of the year, he became a credible main eventer to me. If I would've done it however, I would give him the US/IC title at first, since I like seeing guys built up, instead of being sworned into the main event. So all in all, the problem lied within the sudden push.
Sheamus - Okay, this is perhaps the worst excuse of a main eventer, let alone World Champion, I have ever seen(or in my case, read about). At least with Lesnar, he was built up as a threat, albeit real fast, and fans at least got to know who JBL/Bradshaw was before giving him the top prize, but before challenging John Cena, he was used as a lower midcarder, with no signs of become a main eventer(let alone World Champion) as soon as he did. In fact, here's a rundown of the Celtic Warrior's WWE tenure before feuding with John Cena...
Summer of 2009 - Feuds with Goldust
Early to mid Fall - Had a brief rivalry with Shelton Benjamin
Late Fall - Assaulted and retired Jamie Noble, attacked Jerry Lawler, won his Survivor Series match, then won a battle royal to become number one contender for the WWE championship.
The fact that he won the WWE championship from John Cena caught me off guard. I was shocked, but then knowing my faith in the current WWE booking, I wasn't at the same time. In fact, I don't think he was the least bit over before or when he became WWE champion(somebody correct me if I'm wrong).
I'm sure there's more, but I'd like others to name some.
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Jimmy
Grimlock
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Post by Jimmy on Dec 25, 2009 17:01:39 GMT -5
JBL for sure. It wasn't until after his title reign that he won me over. I had the same problem as you mentioned, he went from losing Velocity matches to Charlie Haas to suddenly feuding with Eddie, with almost zero in-between.
Sheamus too. He just wasn't built up properly.
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Post by rrm15 on Dec 25, 2009 17:12:09 GMT -5
I disagree with you on Lesnar. They MADE him look like a total threat, and while it wasn't over a particularly long time, he looked totally unstoppable.
You're right on the money about JBL though. You can't just have some random mid-carder win the world title without any build-up. He earned it though. He had one of the best title reigns in recent years.
As for Sheamus, only time will tell, but they're off to a pretty bad start.
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Post by chunkylover53 on Dec 25, 2009 17:16:24 GMT -5
I disagree with you on Lesnar. They MADE him look like a total threat, and while it wasn't over a particularly long time, he looked totally unstoppable. You're right on the money about JBL though. You can't just have some random mid-carder win the world title without any build-up. He earned it though. He had one of the best title reigns in recent years. As for Sheamus, only time will tell, but they're off to a pretty bad start. I mentioned Lesnar looked like a threat, I just think giving him the WWE championship this soon wasn't appropriate.
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"Hollywood" Cactus Matt
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by "Hollywood" Cactus Matt on Dec 25, 2009 17:22:53 GMT -5
Since this is in (w)Rest, I'll assume that it can mean from any promotion at any time, correct?
Jeff Jarrett, WCW World champion. It's not that he's a bad worker - far from it; he's definitely proven he can have good-to-great matches - it's just that, for his entire career, his whole persona, from the look to the mannerisms to the way he talks (and that is not a jab at his accent, as I don't really think that matters; it's more that when he tries to sound threatening, it comes across as very forced) has screamed "MIDCARD FOR LIFE!" to me. He'd be fine in the upper-midcard, challenging for the title every once in a while, as long as he didn't win it. (unless it was a fluke.)
Also, to a lesser f***ing extent, Shane f***ing Douglas in EC-f***ing-W. All of his f***ing promos involved a lot of f***ing expletives, his f***ing in-ring work wasn't all that f***ing impressive, and again, his whole persona screamed "bitter f***ing midcarder blaming other f***ing people [Ric Flair] for his own f***ing inability to headline a major f***ing promotion."
Bear in mind, these are both just opinions, and I did eventually buy Douglas as a somewhat credible champion, but I was happy in a smarky way when he finally dropped the ECW title.
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Post by strykerdarksilence on Dec 25, 2009 18:10:51 GMT -5
Brock Lesnar: Lacked the charisma and presence for the main event. Bored the hell out of me.
Christian: I can't put a finger on a particular reason, it's just he screams midcarder to me.
RVD: Too inconsistent in the ring and lacked storytelling skills.
Kevin Nash: Too lazy and just plain terrible in the ring. Also, I know not many agree with me, but his promo style does nothing to draw me into a feud.
Rick Rude: I love watching Rick Rude, but a bit like Christian, he just wasn't a main eventer to me.
Scott Steiner: When he was good enough in ring he was the bland half of the Steiners. When he developed a personality, he couldn't get it done in the same way anymore.
The Rock: Repetitive, banal catchphrases on the mic, he killed feuds before they got started for me with his promos. Awful in ring without a talented wrestler to carry him.
Add DDP to the 'Just screams midcard' pile.
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Ass Dan
King Koopa
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Post by Ass Dan on Dec 25, 2009 18:37:15 GMT -5
I didn't buy Jerry Lynn as ROH Champion. That's the only recent one I can think of.
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Post by Crazy Diamond on Dec 25, 2009 18:56:01 GMT -5
HHH after his third or fourth title reign: Watching his work in 2000 only made his flaws more obvious. He's like the Hal Jordan of the WWF in that he works fine when he plays the role of a foil but he sucks once he becomes the main focus of storylines. Even before his quad injury he was slow and generally boring in the ring and I do not understand why people compared him to guys like Ric Flair. Don't even get me started on when they really pushed him to the top in 2002.
Shawn Michaels: Well, I could buy into him as a main event heel but once he got the belt I just didn't care. It came off like they had no other choice in 96 and in 2002 I kept wondering why they went out of their way to avoid putting the belt on RVD only to put it on a guy who was not as over and had recently come back from a back injury. His offense is horrible and his mat work I can't stand to watch. He's best when he sticks to high flying but by that point I had already seen guys like Eddie Guerrero do it way better.
Jeff Jarret: This guy should have never been World Heavyweight Champion period. His only good work was in Memphis as a babyface and in any other role he's not convincing. I could not understand why Booker T had to wait so long to be a WCW champion and yet this guy kept getting title reigns. You know how some people felt about X-Pac? That's how I felt about Jeff Jarret at that point.
Hulk Hogan: I hated him for years and it's a very long story so I'll just keep it at that. He came off like a terrible wrestler to me and his promos rambled on. As a face he was an arrogant ass who overshadowed his fans and as a heel he was good until it became quite apparent to me that he would never really lose. Then it got old and at that point I just wanted him off my TV.
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Post by Enrico Palazzo on Dec 25, 2009 19:29:08 GMT -5
Not sure if it counts, but McMahon in the main event of Armageddon 99, to me as a nine year old, beating the hell out of the former champ made no sense to me.
Also when Benoit and Guerrero held their titles at the same time, it did not feel right, although saying that, once he beat Angle that made him in my eyes. Benoit's title reign because he was fighting half way through the PPV, and HHH/HBK took precident.
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DavidArquette
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Post by DavidArquette on Dec 25, 2009 20:11:21 GMT -5
JBL for sure. It wasn't until after his title reign that he won me over. I had the same problem as you mentioned, he went from losing Velocity matches to Charlie Haas to suddenly feuding with Eddie, with almost zero in-between. Sheamus too. He just wasn't built up properly. Same here with JBL. It wasn't until he lost the belt that I realised how great he was in that role. I've liked him ever since. His push did happen too fast but it worked out in the end.
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Post by thereallybigshow on Dec 25, 2009 20:36:54 GMT -5
Brock Lesnar: Lacked the charisma and presence for the main event. Bored the hell out of me. Really? Brock went straight to the top. He had the look and ability. I thought he was the bright spot of the WWE in the 00's. Christian: I can't put a finger on a particular reason, it's just he screams midcarder to me. Yeah, too skinny or something. He just lacks something. He's pretty funny. He pretty good in the ring. I don't know what it is. RVD: Too inconsistent in the ring and lacked storytelling skills. RVD in the WWE wasn't a great main event. In ECW he truly was the main event. RVD could close any show they held. He was as over as you can get. It didn't translate to the masses but the for majority of his career his amazing abilities carried him straight into the main event. Kevin Nash: Too lazy and just plain terrible in the ring. Also, I know not many agree with me, but his promo style does nothing to draw me into a feud. Yeah, Nash was great in the nWo but I never bought a PPV headlined by Kevin Nash...I really don't think I ever have... Rick Rude: I love watching Rick Rude, but a bit like Christian, he just wasn't a main eventer to me. Rude w/Heenan could have been main event material. Rude by himself...not so much. Scott Steiner: When he was good enough in ring he was the bland half of the Steiners. When he developed a personality, he couldn't get it done in the same way anymore. Sometime I wonder what Steiner could have done if he didn't bulk up and become immobile. In the early 90's he was great. He could have really been great if he kept true to that incarnation. Add DDP to the 'Just screams midcard' pile. During the nWo's heyday Page was truly a main eventer. When he was over...he was really fricken over. Plus, the Diamond Cutter! He really went the extra mile. His finisher and hand signal were over too. Hell, people even popped when his music hit.
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Post by chunkylover53 on Dec 25, 2009 21:28:37 GMT -5
Am I the only one who thinks Jeff Jarrett could've made a fine WWF champion if built properly? In no way do I think he should've ever been a long term champion, but a short term reign could've been okay. I know his WCW title reigns felt forced to many, but I think if it were WWF, they would have his presence under control. He was rumored to feud with Austin had he stayed past October 1999, but for that to happen, he would have to win his feud with Chyna to look strong going into the possible feud.
I think with Jarrett's case is he needs to be feuding with a big name player or be in an interesting storyline to mask his flaws. With the Main Event scene in WWF, you had The Rock, Triple H, Stone Cold, Mick Foley, Undertaker every now and then. Enough talent to carry Jarrett.
I'm by far Double J's biggest mark, but thats my opinon on him as a main eventer. I can't judge him by his WCW run, because I never watched it.
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Post by Nickybojelais on Dec 25, 2009 21:34:44 GMT -5
It took me a very long time to take to Bret Hart as THE guy in the WWF, having been brought up on Hogan/Warrior/Savage it was a shock to see somebody different in their place. I did grow to Hart as the Champ duing his "Take on all challengers" title reign.
It was however the promotion of Lex Luger as the new version of 'Real American' Hulk Hogan that pushed me away from Wrestling for a long time.
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Post by skiller on Dec 25, 2009 22:08:30 GMT -5
John Cena - The guy's champion because he sells merchandise. I never see anything new from him, it's always the same tired formula and same old story.
Randy Orton - My god. I have never been so disinterested in any main eventer in my entire life. I used to be a big fan of the guy too. But from whatever happened from then til now, he's just so awful.
Shane Douglas - No, you know what? I take that back. Orton is indefinitely more interesting than f***ing Mr. f***ing Shane f***ing Douglas, f***!
Lex Luger - For being Lex Luger.
The Great Khali - Self explanatory.
That's all that comes to mind at the moment.
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Post by BrodietheSlayer on Dec 25, 2009 22:20:54 GMT -5
Jeff Jarrett......he's a decent hand to have around, but no matter how much he gave himself the NWA/TNA World title, he was never "the man" to me.
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Post by indymadman on Dec 25, 2009 22:43:06 GMT -5
Brock Lesnar: Lacked the charisma and presence for the main event. Bored the hell out of me. Christian: I can't put a finger on a particular reason, it's just he screams midcarder to me. RVD: Too inconsistent in the ring and lacked storytelling skills. Kevin Nash: Too lazy and just plain terrible in the ring. Also, I know not many agree with me, but his promo style does nothing to draw me into a feud. Rick Rude: I love watching Rick Rude, but a bit like Christian, he just wasn't a main eventer to me. Scott Steiner: When he was good enough in ring he was the bland half of the Steiners. When he developed a personality, he couldn't get it done in the same way anymore. The Rock: Repetitive, banal catchphrases on the mic, he killed feuds before they got started for me with his promos. Awful in ring without a talented wrestler to carry him. Add DDP to the 'Just screams midcard' pile. Wow, I couldn't disagree more on all of these. Actually, the guy who said Jeff Jarrett picked the one I was going to say... I never bought him as a main eventer and still don't.
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Post by boomhauer20055 on Dec 25, 2009 22:43:53 GMT -5
Rey Mysterio
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CMWaters
Ozymandius
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Post by CMWaters on Dec 25, 2009 22:50:16 GMT -5
David Arquette </endthread>
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Dec 25, 2009 23:04:45 GMT -5
I agree totally on Jarrett and Douglas. Can't quite put my finger on what it is that Jarrett's missing, but it's definitely something.
Douglas never struck me as someone who could get over without being able to say "f***" a lot and talk about people more over than him who worked for other companies.
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Post by Fuj the Stooge on Dec 26, 2009 0:57:44 GMT -5
-Mick Foley: I always saw him as more of a hardcore/freak show. I know they made it work, and he was never 18 time champ or anything, I just saw him as a very unique midcarder and not THE guy.
Jeff Jarrett: This friggin guy. Years ago I used to call him Hick Flair and Fairy Lawler. Good as an annoying midcard heel in the Honky Tonk Mold, but 19 time NWTNFNA world champeen? Only Jerry Lawler has held more company titles, and you sir.....
-Nash: I second the criticisms already stated herein. the man's theme song should be lazy train. The coolest thing he had was that "measure the guy with my hands like a painter" thing before he threw an elbow in the corner. And he could step over the ropes. And he had long hair and he was a cool bouncer dude. That's how I would describe Nash to someone who's never seen wrestling.
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