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Post by garretta on Aug 17, 2010 16:36:18 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity, Jed, what are the ideas you've started?
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Brain Of F'n J
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Post by Brain Of F'n J on Aug 17, 2010 17:14:19 GMT -5
What if Tommy Dreamer joined Cactus Jack's anti-hardcore crusade?
What if Bret Hart lost at SummerSlam '97?
What if Shane Douglas didn't throw down the NWA World Title?
What if Fusient Media Ventures bought WCW?
Some have actual manuscript written, but I just ran out of gas. Some never got much further than an outline and an intro. The Bret/Summerslam story is about 35-40% done ... I just wasn't feeling it, though. The story is great, but the writing is just bleh in my eyes. The first two will be the ones that pull me off my semi-rocking chair, if any.
Jed Shaffer ~At least the Bret one. I hate to have it half-done.
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Post by garretta on Aug 18, 2010 4:58:55 GMT -5
My full review of the "Flair helps Dusty in 1985" story is up at kayfabememories.com. As an added feature, I rebooked the entire 1986 Great American Bash Tour from start to finish. (There were more stops than the ones mentioned on TV and in the magazines.)
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Post by simongr81 on Aug 18, 2010 12:50:55 GMT -5
Actually, if I got Jed's approval, I would like to consider, once his Bret Summerslam 97 story came out, doing the other possible outcome- Shawn showing bias towards The Undertaker, and thus not being allowed to wrestle in the United States. Not sure I could do it, but is a consideration.
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Post by garretta on Aug 18, 2010 14:50:57 GMT -5
For those of you who may not have the patience to sit through the long versions of my KM revies (and believe me, they get long and involved; it took me over a month to do most of them, about as long as I guess it would take to write a completely original scenario), I'd like to cover some of the high points of my thoughts. We'll start with the Orndorff as WWF champion one, since we've already had some discussion about it here.
First, I like the way Jed wrote Orndorff and Heenan. If I'd been doing it, I'd have written Orndorff just a shade tougher, but Jed's way puts him over as a heel much better. In essence, he's booking Paul exactly the same way that JCP booked Flair, only instead of Dusty finishes, he's using the "skin of the teeth" gambit, where either everybody and their brother interferes or Paul simply runs like a thief in the night. Given the fact that hel was injured in real life at this time and couldn't do half of what he normally could, this would have been a great way to protect him and still make money. There's only one problem: with Honky being booked the same way, and with Orndorff's much better rep as a worker, you risk burning out the crowd. Add the Harts as tag champs (who were also booked much the same way) and too many of the title matches start to look the same.
Jed dropped the Hart-Heenan alliance way too soon. It was fresh and exciting, and the WWF never tried it in real life, unfortunately. (By the way, Jed, what was Monsoon's nickname for what everyone else called "The Brain Trust"? You refer to one, but it either got cut off or you forgot to put it in the finished product.)
The biggest disappointment was DiBiase. I never got the sense from what Jed wrote that he was pushed as a skilled wrestler, like he was in real life. Jed spent too much time on the character of The Million Dollar Man and not enough on what made him really dangerous, which was the fact that he could back up everything he said in the ring. I loved the idea of Bigelow as hired muscle for Orndorff, though.
The Andre turn wasn't as dramatic as it was in real life, but how could it have been? The real-life veraion was one of the best-booked angles that I can remember. I liked that Jed turned him back to babyface after only a year, which is exactly how Vince should have done it instead of putting him through meaningless feuds with Duggan, Jake, and Warrior.
Savage comes off like the breakout star he really was, getting two clean pinfalls on Orndorff when that sort of thing wasn't done by Vince, though it should have been. Actually, the way Jed worote it, the fans might have had an easier time accepting Savage as the next champ than they would have Hogan, which I know wasn't Jed's intent.
The major problem I have is Hogan doing not one, not two, but three stretcher jobs. Absolute overkill, and the graphic nature of the beatdowns, particularly the Orndorff-Andre one after Mania III, would have ensured that they never made it onto the family-oriented WWF programming at the time. (Not to mention that Hogan would never have agreed to them all in the first place.) Add to this the fact that all the wrestlers seem to wrestle on TV every week (Jed specifically mentions that Hogan has an impressive TV winning streak, and that Orndorff defends the title against jobbers every week in order to get himself over as a "fighting" champion, which no champion ever did back then regardless), and there's a distinct Attitude Era flavor about some of this that seems a little off. Sure, WWF TV during this time could have used a fair bit of freshening, but Jed's almost creating a completely different style of product out of nowhere, and it's more than a bit dixconcerting.
There are just the highlights. Agree, disagree, a little bit of both? I'd love to hear from you!
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Brain Of F'n J
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Post by Brain Of F'n J on Aug 18, 2010 17:02:29 GMT -5
Actually, if I got Jed's approval, I would like to consider, once his Bret Summerslam 97 story came out, doing the other possible outcome- Shawn showing bias towards The Undertaker, and thus not being allowed to wrestle in the United States. Not sure I could do it, but is a consideration. You don't have to wait. You could do it anytime you like. Unless you're wanting to coincide with whenever I get off my lazy ass and do mine. in that case ... yikes, hope you're patient, cause I don't have any sort of timetable whatsoever. Jed Shaffer ~Although now, I almost feel like I need to take a look at it and see if I can pick up the thread ...
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Brain Of F'n J
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Post by Brain Of F'n J on Aug 18, 2010 17:13:46 GMT -5
Since you went to so much trouble here to write up your thoughts, I'll return the gesture and acknowledge some of your points. After all ... you MUST be a fan, so it's the least I can do to get off my high horse and discuss it. First, I like the way Jed wrote Orndorff and Heenan. If I'd been doing it, I'd have written Orndorff just a shade tougher, but Jed's way puts him over as a heel much better. In essence, he's booking Paul exactly the same way that JCP booked Flair, only instead of Dusty finishes, he's using the "skin of the teeth" gambit, where either everybody and their brother interferes or Paul simply runs like a thief in the night. Given the fact that hel was injured in real life at this time and couldn't do half of what he normally could, this would have been a great way to protect him and still make money. There's only one problem: with Honky being booked the same way, and with Orndorff's much better rep as a worker, you risk burning out the crowd. Add the Harts as tag champs (who were also booked much the same way) and too many of the title matches start to look the same. In retrospect, yeah, probably should've done Orndorff a tad tougher. But I'd like to believe the audience could see that the three champs were distinct enough: Orndorff getting by with help and the skin of his teeth but capable of winning if/when necessary, Honky an out-and-out coward, and the Hart Foundation skilled but sometimes just taking the cheap way out. If memory serves (I'm going on memory for all this, not having read the story since it was published), I ended the alliance because it had served its purpose, as far as the story arc I was going for. For the life of me, I have no idea. I would say, though, that WWF didn't book around his skills either. Once you got past his first few months of squash matches, when he finally went into real angles, he more often than not tried to be a conniving prick. Plus, to be honest ... The Million Dollar Man as a character was a lot more useful to me for the arc than the skilled wrestler. It's not how I would want DiBiase booked in reality, but for this story, it's what I ended up needing. I wouldn't have even TRIED to touch the drama of the real turn. Nobody can. One of the best angles, and one of the best turns, EVER. Period. Always had a soft spot for Savage. Did I have Hogan do that many stretcher jobs? Wow. I don't even recall. Guess I got stuck on a theme. I'll admit, the TV thing ... yeah, that was me taking a bit of liberty. It was one of those situations where I was backed into a corner: the story could either unveil over YEARS if I did it 100% by the book, or in the timeframe I did it if I fudged a little. Does it change the flavor of the promotion? Sure. But in this case, at least, I like to think it might be a bit for the better. Jed Shaffer ~I'll admit, this story didn't turn out exactly as I'd planned. T'was a rough one to get out. So that may also show in the story's development.
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Post by garretta on Aug 18, 2010 19:06:09 GMT -5
Two comnments on your comments, Jed:
1) I agree about DiBiase. They never depicted him as using his skill to get anything when a few bucks could do the trick. That's one of the main reasons why so many "purists" dislike the MDM character; they prefer to remember the Teddy who bled buckets for Flair and still gave the fight of his life, or the one that came back from being piledriven on the floor by the Freebirds. Can't say I blame them, but I liked the Million Dollar Man as well.
2) About the TV: Artistic liberty noted. To be honest, they could have used Hogan once every taping, even if it was just a squash. The tapings were done in three-week cycles, so you could have him off for two weeks in between appearances in order to build anticipation. You could also do four to six non-title matches against name wrestlers (guys like Bob Orton who aren't part of the title picture, or Jim Neidhart, who were primarily tag team guys but still well known, plus the occasional loss to set up a program), and put the belt on the line once or twice a year (you could just put commentary on what were the dark main events for these).
Also, you mention that the story didn't turn out the way you would have liked it to. Care to elaborate, if you remember?
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Brain Of F'n J
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We Discodians must stick apart.
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Post by Brain Of F'n J on Aug 18, 2010 21:25:39 GMT -5
Two comnments on your comments, Jed: 1) I agree about DiBiase. They never depicted him as using his skill to get anything when a few bucks could do the trick. That's one of the main reasons why so many "purists" dislike the MDM character; they prefer to remember the Teddy who bled buckets for Flair and still gave the fight of his life, or the one that came back from being piledriven on the floor by the Freebirds. Can't say I blame them, but I liked the Million Dollar Man as well. I wish they would've used his wrestling skills. It would've been captivating to see this brilliant, conniving heel who also could out-wrestle Hogan as well as be a dirty scoundrel. Alas. But that would be why I booked him as I did in this story: it's how he was booked anyway. I may have amped it up a bit more, depending on your POV ... but it seemed to fit the character and the style. It isn't so much any specific plot points or anything so much as tone and narrative voice. Some of the RTB's came, quite literally, pouring out of me, almost faster than I could write them (DiBiase buying the belt from Hogan, DX/Nitro, the CM Punk story, the who-ran-over-Austin story). Those are the ones I love the most, because they took no effort: the stories wrote themselves. They had their own life, and I think you can really feel it when you read it. But some stories, I had to drag kicking and screaming into the light, and I think it shows in the text, too; there's less of a feeling of immersion, less immediacy to them. Hogan/Orndorff was one of them. Foley as the Corporate Champ is another that disappointed me. Sting/Flair disappointed me. The InVasion REALLY disappointed me. So, it's not anything specific I can point to; just overall, general quality of writing. Jed Shaffer ~Which is why the Bret story stalled: I didn't like the writing.
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Post by garretta on Aug 18, 2010 21:37:00 GMT -5
This one was actually one of my favorites, but that might be because it was my first hot angle as a fan. I thought it was well done, but had a few flaws, which I've already described.
I know what you mean, though; I did some rebooking for KM using these, and the one where Savage kept the belt in '89 (based on your Savage-Warrior story) was easy. The Rooster one based on Simon's story was brutal, and there were a whole bunch of things I'd scrap if I could. I'll talk more about them another time, but Simon's original story was far better.
Looking back through my original comments over on KM, there are two other things I'm curious about:
1) Why did you drop the Bundy face turn after Survvivor Series? I know he didn't have much longer to go in the WWF, but he seems to disappear with no explanation after being so hot in the spring and summer of '87.
2) Did you ignore the first Royal Rumble on purpose or simply forget about it?
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Brain Of F'n J
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Post by Brain Of F'n J on Aug 18, 2010 22:04:35 GMT -5
1) Why did you drop the Bundy face turn after Survivor Series? I know he didn't have much longer to go in the WWF, but he seems to disappear with no explanation after being so hot in the spring and summer of '87. Probably ceased being useful to the story is all. Forgot it. Jed Shaffer ~It was one of my first angles as well. I just ... didn't find the voice I wanted for it.
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Post by garretta on Aug 20, 2010 16:59:11 GMT -5
Now, I'd like to look at the "What if DiBiase bought the belt from Hogan?" story. I'm using the notes I made at KM this time, so I won't forget anything. Here we go:
Two very important first questions, Jed. The first one's nitpicky, I guess, but kind of important in how the story plays out. It seems to me that Teddy bought the physical belt and the right to hold it, but not the championship itself. Or, to put it in a much better way, he might have owned the belt, but he could still lose the championship, and had to defend it when Jack Tunney told him to. When I first watched the real life angle, and read your version here, I thought that Teddy meant to buy the actual championship, never to be defended or lost. In other words, he would be champion until he decided he didn't want to be anymore. That would have been a gutsy road for Vince to go down; not only would you have to pin DiBiase in the middle of the ring to win the title, but you'd have to make him agree to give up his claim on it. I could see an "I quit" match with him and Hogan where quitting means surrendering either the title (in Teddy's case) or any further claim to a shot at it (in Hogan's case), and it would have sold out Mania IV. You'd have a hard time explaining it to the kids, however; it was easier just to do the standard Hogan formula.
Second, were you going for an earlier version of Hollywood with Hogan here? Beard, bad attitude, denim jackets, more articulate promos in place of "Let me tell you something, brother......" I have mixed feelings about that, too. There's no doubt that it would have been more appealing to teenagers and up, but I doubt it would have sold the dolls, lunchboxes, and bedsheets needed to keep the WWF afloat under the new business paradigm that they'd created. It was a hell of a read, though.
Other observations:
1. Just like in the Orndorff scenario, Andre turns face. He seems a bit too vulnerable, but that's because most fans are used to him as the untouchable giant. I think you could have gotten away with someone not named Hogan beating him by now (as Vince did against Warrior a couple of years later, when he was totally shot) but it would have had to mean something. Being knocked out by the Million Dollar Dream would definitely mean something.
2. The Orndorff face turn was a bit too goody-goody. Why would he have been so upset by the demise of Hulkamania when he bled and sweated to destroy it himself just a few short months before? He and Teddy would have made a classic matchup, but not set up that way. Even Vince never tried to pretend that he and Hogan were buddies once he turned back.
3. The version of the Megapowers that Jed wrote fits the personalities of Savage and Hogan better than the real-life version did. I know why they did it the way they did in reality: to set Savage up as Hogan's successor. But the only one who didn't seem forced in that angle was Liz, which is probably why so much of it focused on her. Looking back on it now, the only real-feeling part of any of it was Savage's turn. To further complicate things, any mark who read any publications other than WWF Magazine knew that Hogan was married, so the "Lust Hogan" (as Jesse put it so well) part of the angle had to give at least some Hogan fans (or their parents) the creeps. Anyway, Jed avoided all that, so more power to him.
4. Having said all of that. I don't get the point of Hogan beating Savage clean on SNME. Doesn't that make Savage, who's your next champ, look decidedly inferior in front of the whole world? Same thing with the ending to the Mania IV match, in which Hogan inteferes much more blatantly than he did in real life, practically handing the belt to Savage on a platter. How can the fans accept Savage as a legit champion when everything he's gotten has been by Hogan's hand? Randy was hot in '88 because he was his own man; just as beloved as Hogan, but he did things his way, and he and Liz were beholden to no one. I get that Randy's a caretaker until Hogan gets ready to return, but you could have made it less obvious.
5. Jed, did you forget that SNME was taped in advance, or was making it live just another matter of artistic license on your part?
6. Was getting Liz physically and verbally involved a way of making her seem more like a manager and less like a valet? In real life, she never touched anyone, and she never screamed at Randy, or even cheered for him very much. Mostly, she just stood there looking like she was scared stiff. (She probably was, given Savage's crazy reputation and the fact that accidents happen.)
7. I'm not really sure that Savage-DiBiase (or its replacement, DiBiase-Andre) would have drawn enough potential viewers to justify a prime time special. This is no knock on you; you're going with your best available matchup not involving Hogan or Savage. it's just that I've always assumed that NBC bought the specific idea of Hogan-Andre in prime time, not just a wrestling show in prime time.
Finally, some unfinished business on the Orndorff story. I decided to have a little fun with the idea of Andre neutralizing Heenan, DiBiase, and Virgil, so when I reviewed this one for KM, I put him in the corner of every babyface who had a match with a Heenan Family member, plus DiBiase. I also had him winning the Mania IV battle royal. I realize he could never have stood it in real life, but in my world, Mania IV would have been his swan song. I know he loved to wrestle, but he wouldn't have been doing it for me after that. He was too limited, and having known how awesome he was in his day, my heart would have broken at the thought of his legend being destroyed the way Vince did it. I'd put him on the payroll at full salary just to sit on his farm and watch his horses graze in the field.
Thoughts, questions, comments from anyone?
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Post by simongr81 on Aug 20, 2010 23:03:03 GMT -5
2. The Orndorff face turn was a bit too goody-goody. Why would he have been so upset by the demise of Hulkamania when he bled and sweated to destroy it himself just a few short months before? He and Teddy would have made a classic matchup, but not set up that way. Even Vince never tried to pretend that he and Hogan were buddies once he turned back. It couldn't have been worse than his real face turn. Bobby Heenan wanted him to say Rick Rude had a better physique than himself (Orndorff not Heenan) and he refused, fired Heenan again and introduced "Sir" Oliver Humperdink as his manager. What a fall from grace! I mean firing the Weasel on TNT and being made Hogan's then best buddy, to that! And he and Hogan were partners again at the 1st Survivor Series (with Bam Bam Bigelow, Don Muraco (taking Billy Graham's place) and Ken Patera. In a rare moment, the heels won the main event , losing to Andre, Butch Reed, Rick Rude, King Kong Bundy and the One Man Gang.
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Post by garretta on Aug 21, 2010 4:20:44 GMT -5
Absolutely horrible angle. Paul was too hurt to work a decent match, and Rude hadn't found his stride as a worker yet. Humpy wasn't a babyface and it showed, and the actual turn was cringeworthy; it didn't even seem that Paul knew what to say. Every other line was "I'm gonna tell you something else........." or "You wanna know what I think?" He didn't want to do this, especially since he knew it would lead him nowhere. The original firing on TNT was a million times better and more natural.
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Brain Of F'n J
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Post by Brain Of F'n J on Aug 21, 2010 7:56:04 GMT -5
Now, I'd like to look at the "What if DiBiase bought the belt from Hogan?" story. I'm using the notes I made at KM this time, so I won't forget anything. Here we go: That's okay, I'll be going on memory of writing this six years ago (it was my third RTB), so if I have coherent responses, it'll be a miracle. I never took DiBiase's offer as such. I took it as he didn't want to go through the trouble of winning it, that buying it would be easier. No, more like the "FUNB" Hogan, the attempt at an edgy character Hogan used during the war with the New Blood in WCW in 2000. And while I do agree that it would've made for more difficult merch sales and wouldn't have fit the business paradigm of the WWF at the time ... that's the whole point of the story. Hogan, the eternal hero, the stalwart villain killer, sells out, quite literally. You can't make a smiling, baby-kissing, hand-shaking hero out of that. So the whole thrust of the story was to go against the grain. [qote]1. Just like in the Orndorff scenario, Andre turns face. He seems a bit too vulnerable, but that's because most fans are used to him as the untouchable giant. I think you could have gotten away with someone not named Hogan beating him by now (as Vince did against Warrior a couple of years later, when he was totally shot) but it would have had to mean something. Being knocked out by the Million Dollar Dream would definitely mean something.[/quote] Hard to recall the what/why ... I'd say my guess as to motivation would be that Andre's untouchable mystique had been blown by then, so if he looked a little vulnerable, not a lot of harm. I'd have to say my thought process here would be Orndorff wanted to prove he was better than Hogan when he turned heel ... but Hogan selling out bothered him because he was never looking to kill Hulkamania -- he just wanted respect. Maybe that could've been better laid out. Thank you. Um ... sets up Hogan as the next contender, and when he beats Hogan, it makes him the ultimate never-say-die babyface? Yeah, I got nothing. Probably forgot. It just felt emotionally necessary to have her do more than be, in essence, set dressing. It's always bothered me that she's referred to as one of the greatest managers ever, but she did NOTHING for her client. Maybe, maybe not. But that show was on the real schedule, so I wasn't going to avoid it. There's degrees of artistic license, and wiping out The Main Event would be a step too far for me. Jed Shaffer ~Useless info: this is one of my favorite RTB's, because this was an important angle for a young Hulkamaniac.
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mrjl
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Post by mrjl on Aug 21, 2010 8:21:35 GMT -5
I think if Dibiase wanted the actual rights to the title he'd have had to go to the company, not the champion.
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Brain Of F'n J
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Post by Brain Of F'n J on Aug 21, 2010 10:47:18 GMT -5
I think if Dibiase wanted the actual rights to the title he'd have had to go to the company, not the champion. Which is why, in the story, he buys the title by paying Hogan to forfeit a match, which counts as a submission. Jed Shaffer ~And it took me a couple weeks to figure that out.
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Post by garretta on Aug 21, 2010 11:16:42 GMT -5
Thanks for the answers, Jed. Now, allow me to answer some of them:
1. I get why Teddy wanted to buy the title; what I was asking was sort of an esoteric question, and I worded it horribly. Let me try again: In the scenario, once Teddy bought the title, why did he have to defend it? I wouldn't think that Jack Tunney had the authority to make a man put up something that belonged to him and not the company (for storyline purposes, of course). Of course, if Teddy didn't defend the title, we'd have no angle, but I'm just wondering why you involved Tunney instead of just having Teddy "decide" to put up the belt in his defenses on the theory that no one could beat him anyway. After all, once he bought it, it was his to do with as he wished; the WWF (again, for storyline purposes) had nothing to say about it. Like I said, I was kind of nitpicking.
2. Could Jed or someone please explain about the "FUNB" character (short for "f*** you New Blood", I suppose) that Jed references here? I didn't watch during that time, so I have no clue what he's talking about. I knew there was something about Milliionaires Club vs. New Blood or some such, but beyond that, I'm lost.
3. Assuning real life takes over again once the scenario ends, by the time Hogan and Savage tangled again at Mania V, Randy would be a full-fledged heel again, just like in real life, so your logic about making him more over as a babyface by defeating fellow babyface Hogan wouldn't apply. How we'd get there without a Megapower breakup is another matter for another writer at another time.
4. Liz was nothing as a manager, outside of Randy, she clicked with nobody, not even Hogan. She needed that "Beauty and the Beast" dynamic that she had with Savage in order to be over with more than her looks. By the time she got to WCW, the wheels had come off; the few times I tuned in for more than a brief look during that period, she was acting like a typical trampy valet, and that really made me sad. Yet more proof that Eric Bischoff didn't have clue one how to book and run a wrestling company. If Vnce had tried that during this time. it would have robbed her of that special something that set her apart from Precious, Sunshine, Baby Doll and many, many others. Besides, she was too damn small and dainty to pull it off, and probably had no interest in taking bumps. even if Randy had allowed her to.
5. This was a great angle for me too; too bad it ultimately led to nothing, thanks mainly to Honky.
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mrjl
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Post by mrjl on Aug 21, 2010 11:28:43 GMT -5
Thanks for the answers, Jed. Now, allow me to answer some of them: 1. I get why Teddy wanted to buy the title; what I was asking was sort of an esoteric question, and I worded it horribly. Let me try again: In the scenario, once Teddy bought the title, why did he have to defend it? I wouldn't think that Jack Tunney had the authority to make a man put up something that belonged to him and not the company (for storyline purposes, of course). Of course, if Teddy didn't defend the title, we'd have no angle, but I'm just wondering why you involved Tunney instead of just having Teddy "decide" to put up the belt in his defenses on the theory that no one could beat him anyway. After all, once he bought it, it was his to do with as he wished; the WWF (again, for storyline purposes) had nothing to say about it. Like I said, I was kind of nitpicking. 4. Liz was nothing as a manager, outside of Randy, she clicked with nobody, not even Hogan. She needed that "Beauty and the Beast" dynamic that she had with Savage in order to be over with more than her looks. By the time she got to WCW, the wheels had come off; the few times I tuned in for more than a brief look during that period, she was acting like a typical trampy valet, and that really made me sad. Yet more proof that Eric Bischoff didn't have clue one how to book and run a wrestling company. If Vnce had tried that during this time. it would have robbed her of that special something that set her apart from Precious, Sunshine, Baby Doll and many, many others. Besides, she was too damn small and dainty to pull it off, and probably had no interest in taking bumps. even if Randy had allowed her to. I thought it was pretty clear, myself. I don't think the Champion actually owns the belt(even with Flair it was because he put down a deposit for insurance purposes basically and the deposit wasn't returned) and the certainly don't own the title "WWF champion" they just have the right to be called it. So again, I think he'd have to talk to the comapny to own the physical belt and rights to call himself champ. Of course they'd never sell. As for Elizabeth, I think they could have turned her at Mania 5. Of course I have no idea if she had promo skills
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mrjl
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Post by mrjl on Aug 21, 2010 11:34:33 GMT -5
What if David Arquette did not win the WCW title? This is more a backstage thing. Suppose Arquette talked to DDP and Jarrett and maybe Bischoff and they came up with an idea to "knock him out" so he couldn't get in the ring to win the title.
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