Brain Of F'n J
Hank Scorpio
Not that cool enough to have one of these....wait.
We Discodians must stick apart.
Posts: 6,890
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Post by Brain Of F'n J on Aug 21, 2010 12:24:38 GMT -5
1. I get why Teddy wanted to buy the title; what I was asking was sort of an esoteric question, and I worded it horribly. Let me try again: In the scenario, once Teddy bought the title, why did he have to defend it? I wouldn't think that Jack Tunney had the authority to make a man put up something that belonged to him and not the company (for storyline purposes, of course). Of course, if Teddy didn't defend the title, we'd have no angle, but I'm just wondering why you involved Tunney instead of just having Teddy "decide" to put up the belt in his defenses on the theory that no one could beat him anyway. After all, once he bought it, it was his to do with as he wished; the WWF (again, for storyline purposes) had nothing to say about it. Like I said, I was kind of nitpicking. The buying of the title was not so he could control it; just a shortcut so he didn't have to FIGHT for it. For some reason, Hogan became sort of edgy and dark during the Millionaires Club/New Blood feud. Think if Hogan could ever be a bad-ass, instead of an overbearing heel or a baby-kissing face. He wore jean vests, sunglasses, didn't wear red & yellow ... still a face, but a face with a sort of Stone Cold Steve Austin edge. Could be a face/face match, maybe. Agreed. Also agreed. I remember being so shell-shocked that Hogan didn't automatically say no, that he strung along the decision ... the day he revealed his answer, I was nearly in tears, waiting for his reply. When he finally said "HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!", I think I must've screamed with joy. Which is why this story is so favored for me; there's an emotional connection to it for me. Jed Shaffer ~And if you tell anybody besides the 10,000 other Crappers that I cried, I'll hurt you! (Whomever I'm directing that vague and impossible threat at, I don't know.)
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Post by garretta on Aug 21, 2010 12:43:43 GMT -5
Mrji:
Of course you're right. Taking this to the next step, it might have been interesting to see Teddy target the WWF (in the person of Jack Tunney) in an attempt to acquire the rights to the championship, thinking that if Hogan was such an easy touch, gray-haired old Jack Tunney would be a total pushover, only to have him turn Teddy down and reiterate that as champion he'd still be playing by the WWF's rules.
As for Liz, she didn't really have much in the way of promo ability that we saw. She might have developed some if they'd bothered to work with her, as you could tell that she was intelligent enough. But she'd have never been one of the great mouthpieces; she was just too nice. That's why her heel persona never worked in WCW, at least for me; I wanted to see her standing there looking beautiful and smiling, not throwing hot coffee in people's faces. Of course, she could have fooled everybody and been the first cunning mastermind female heel; too bad we'll never know.
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Post by garretta on Aug 21, 2010 12:58:50 GMT -5
Jed:
1. You're right about Teddy and the title, but it would have been interesting to see if Vince had gone with your basic idea and then tried to expand it into an 80s style hostile takeover of the WWF. It still would have been in character, but something more than the typical cartoonish heel.
2. Savage-Hogan as a babyface match? Definitely possible, but the money was in one of them turning. Some have suggested that it wasn't too soon by '89 to try Hogan as a heel; have him admit that he did lust after Liz and try to take both her and the title from Randy. Don't know if I buy that, but it would have been something to see.
3. Hogan as WCW's version of Austin? Can't see it. This was about the time they were throwing everything at the wall and nothing stuck except a big mess, right? No wonder Vince bought them for peanuts.
4. No need to be ashamed, my friend. I cried when Andre turned on Hogan, right in front of my parents. How they let me keep watching I'll never know!
5. Forgot to address your earlier point about Orndorff. I could see Paul cutting a promo saying that although he didn't like Hogan, he came to respect him as a champion and a man during their feud, and didn't think he could be so gutless as to sell to Teddy. Most people would buy that, but not the idea that they were all of a sudden best of friends again. Like I said, even Vince knew he couldn't sell that bill of goods.
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Brain Of F'n J
Hank Scorpio
Not that cool enough to have one of these....wait.
We Discodians must stick apart.
Posts: 6,890
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Post by Brain Of F'n J on Aug 21, 2010 15:15:30 GMT -5
Jed: 1. You're right about Teddy and the title, but it would have been interesting to see if Vince had gone with your basic idea and then tried to expand it into an 80s style hostile takeover of the WWF. It still would have been in character, but something more than the typical cartoonish heel. It would have. But that would've been more NWA-style booking than WWF. They did Hogan/Warrior as a face/face match a year later. Just sayin'. It lasted all of two months, before Hogan left WCW and the angle disintegrated. It was a neat dynamic to see Hogan a little more serious and in the middle instead of either the baby-kissing superhero or the cheesy coward cool heel, but the booking killed the character and the opportunity. I still get shivers watching that. Jed Shaffer ~Shame they can't book that awesome anymore.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 22, 2010 18:35:16 GMT -5
what if Vader had returned to WCW after he left WWF?
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Post by Alexander The So-so on Aug 29, 2010 22:23:39 GMT -5
Great chapter that's made me excited for the next one, Simon. Obviously, the first two guys we're supposed to think of are Arn and Tully, but I get the feeling there are surprises in store for us. Look forward to it!
I was also wondering: is it possible to have dav's "Every Dog Has His Day" story posted in the RTB section of the website? It really is a fantastic read that I think should be found right by you guys' stories.
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Post by simongr81 on Aug 30, 2010 10:16:36 GMT -5
Great chapter that's made me excited for the next one, Simon. Obviously, the first two guys we're supposed to think of are Arn and Tully, but I get the feeling there are surprises in store for us. Look forward to it! Thank you!
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Post by garretta on Aug 30, 2010 15:53:01 GMT -5
Okay, here's one of the angles that I rebooked. This is what I did to the Savage-Warrior story in order to fit into the timeline over at Kayfabe Memories:
1. Moved the start from WrestleMania VII to WrestleMania V.
2. Savage attacks Warrior first, following his match with Rude, then Hogan.
3. Instead of Sherri, who wasn't part of his package yet, Savage attacks Liz. This would never have happened in real life, not even close.
4. Hogan's out instead of Warrior, who takes up the fight against Savage. They have a bloodbath of the first order at the May 1989 SNME, and Savage retains.
5. Rude takes the place of the Undertaker, who of course wasn't there in '89, but the body bag remains, though it really doesn't make much sense.
6. Hacksaw Jim Duggan takes the Big Bossman's place as Savage's next challenger after Warrior, mostly because Duggan had the two-by-four, which Savage can use to put him out of action like he used the Bossman's nightstick in the original scenario.
7. Instead of having the heels back off like Jed did, I had several of them, most notably Ted DiBiase, challenge him. Vince scraps this after almost all the heels who challenge Savage are cheered to the point of being turned by the fans, especially Teddy, who puts Savage out with the Million Dollar Dream at MSG and stuffs two hundred-dollar bills in his mouth, leaving to a standing ovation.
I did this because, with Hogan, Warrior, and Hacksaw out selling injuries and Jake on the shelf with legit neck problems (as well as legal trouble), the best face challengers would have been Beefcake (whom I put with Rude in Warrior's place and gave the IC belt eventually), Hillbilly Jim, who hadn't drawn in years and was barely wrestling at the time, and Koko B. Ware, who'd never been a main eventer and never would be. It was also just a hair too early for Dusty.
8. I had Piper knock Savage out with the sleeper during their brawl on the Pit; the sleeper was sort of Savage's Achilles heel here, as he'd be put out several times during the angle.
9. Jack Tunney's involvement was drastically reduced. If you saw him on camera, you know just how uncomfortable he was, and how little he added to any storyline.
10. I brought back Ace Orton to be Piper's bodyguard. They were Frick and Frack, and Orton was a lot bigger part of Piper's act, even verbally, than most people give him credit for. He also subs for Piper at house shows while he and Savage are barred from physical contact until SummerSlam.
11. Beefcake wrestles Svage for the title on the summer edition of SNME in place of Orton, who was scheduled, and almost wins the title with the sleeper. Savage knocks the ref for a loop to earn the DQ, but Piper violates the restraining order and puts Randy the rest of the way out as he tries to flee, leaving him out cold on the floor.
12. Instead of Tunney appointing Sid, I had Piper and Savage each nominate someone to ref their match, with the winner being chosen by coin flip. Randy chose Jesse Ventura, while Piper chose his old Hollywood bodyguard, Tiny "Zeus" Lister (who really was Piper's bodyguard in Hollywood; that's how Vince knew of him).
13. After SummerSlam, which happens as Jed booked with Tiny in Sid's place, Orton takes over the Pit, which is temporarily named Ace's Place. No, he wasn't a great talker, and he would have been a horrible host long term, but it would have kept the seat warm until Piper returned.
14. I have Orton getting the last major title shot before Savage's date with Flair at Survivor Series. Cowboy Bob was pretty much shot by then, but he most likely could have found enough for a short run like this.
15. Savage briefly revisits his earlier alliance with Rude in the weeks before Survivor Series. I briefly considered putting Savage in the Heenan Family, but the booking of Savage as a lone wolf was infinitely more powerful.
16. Instead of spitting on Big Goldy, Savage and Rude make off with it.
17. Warrior is actually sitting at ringside as a spectator during the Savage-Flair match.
I also embellished promos and stuck in commentary where I felt it was appropriate. The SummerSlam and Survivor Series matches were kept as is.
This leads to a question for Jed: Wherever we set the scenario, Flair comes off looking awfully weak, needing blatant outside interference from Hogan to win the title. I realize this was the Hulkamania era, and the world was basically Hogan's playground, but if a guy is promoted as a Real World Champion, why have him look so weak? If not even Ric Flair can beat the heels without Hogan's help, just what hope is there if he gets hurt again, which could always happen?
Whether this scenario takes place in '89 or '91, it kind of leads to the same thing: once all the injured babyfaces come back, Flair, whether champion or not, is going to get lost in the shuffle, because the money would be made with all of the injured faces getting revenge against Savage. I don't think Flair's run would have gone very well under those circumstances, unless you turn him and do matches with Hogan and Warrior, both of which would be rather emphatic losses. The bottom line is that he'd be back in WCW once it was all over, and the world would have gone on as it did in real life.
Thoughts? Questions? Comments? How did I do, Jed?
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 30, 2010 20:49:01 GMT -5
just doesn't work for me. Warrior wasn't big enough, and to much stuff that could never happen.
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Post by garretta on Aug 30, 2010 20:57:48 GMT -5
Would you mind explaining, especially about how Warrior wasn't big enough? He was being pushed to the moon during 1989.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 30, 2010 21:09:58 GMT -5
Would you mind explaining, especially about how Warrior wasn't big enough? He was being pushed to the moon during 1989. yes, throughout all of 89. Wrestlemania 5 was at the very beginning of April. Rude beat him there. He'd yet to beat Andre at this point. At this point he was on the verge of big things, he hadn;t acheived them.
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dav
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,027
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Post by dav on Aug 31, 2010 16:18:41 GMT -5
I was also wondering: is it possible to have dav's "Every Dog Has His Day" story posted in the RTB section of the website? It really is a fantastic read that I think should be found right by you guys' stories. Thanks for the mention but I think there's a general policy that only Simon and others can post there timelines on here. Plus, I think mine needs a little tidying up, still don't have any clue regarding what to do with Cornette after December...
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Brain Of F'n J
Hank Scorpio
Not that cool enough to have one of these....wait.
We Discodians must stick apart.
Posts: 6,890
|
Post by Brain Of F'n J on Aug 31, 2010 17:44:10 GMT -5
I was also wondering: is it possible to have dav's "Every Dog Has His Day" story posted in the RTB section of the website? It really is a fantastic read that I think should be found right by you guys' stories. Thanks for the mention but I think there's a general policy that only Simon and others can post there timelines on here. Plus, I think mine needs a little tidying up, still don't have any clue regarding what to do with Cornette after December... Dav is correct. The official RTB writers are myself (ha!), Simon and Neil. Jed Shaffer ~Who here listens to the show, by the way? We crave feedback?
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Post by Alexander The So-so on Sept 3, 2010 16:04:30 GMT -5
I figured one of the guys was Steamboat. Another good chapter.
Also, just thought of another idea:
What if...Goldberg had signed with the WWF rather than WCW in 1997?
(when he first got into wrestling, he actually spoke with Vince about a contract with the WWF when Bischoff was initially noncommital about signing him, and was pretty close to joining them. It was only when Eric called him at the last minute with an offer that he ended up in WCW)
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Post by garretta on Sept 6, 2010 13:24:23 GMT -5
Okay, the next one I'm going to examine is "What if Sting hadn't injured his knee at Clash X?"
Fisrst of all, even though it was integral to the story as it played out, I'm not sure about the whole "Luger rejoins the Horsemen" idea. It had only been a little over two years since he'd left, and he'd been doing quite well as a heel before this on his own, as he was US champion. I could buy the Horsemen wanting him back, since they were all about controlling the gold, but I'm not so sure about him wanting to come back to them, expecially since the World title was firmly in Flair's control.
Next, the WrestleWar main event finish is too clean. Flair goes over right in the middle with a passout submission, no interference and no cheating, and Sting does a stretcher job in a match he probably shouldn't have been in in the first place due to his bad knee. I guess this is more of a question: How do you build future rematches off of that finish? To me, it seems that if you want a wrestler to be incapcitated, yet still viable down the line, you include a three or four-on-one beatdown, weapons, or other means of thuggery or cheating. This almost sounds more like Sting's leaving to go to Vince and WCW was going to bury him once and for all, which we know is not the case.
Great use of deja vu with the finish of the battle royal to set up the tension between Luger and the Horsemen. You'd think they'd learn to work together in those things by now!
As for Capital Combat (you mistakenly called it Capital Carnage earlier, Jed), having Flair subimt in the after-match brawl was a bit much. The time to do that would have been before the pay-per-view, to set up the idea that Sting can make Flair quit. Afterwards, it just seemed like piling on.
At first, I didn't realize why Jed was giving Sting-Luger away for free at Clash XI, but it was a neat way to set up the Luger turn. One question: You have Sid and Mean Mark as your version of the Skyscrapers, Jed. Was that intentional, or did you forget about Danny Spivey?
The WarGames match was absolutely hellacious with a capital HELL. I'm not sucking up to Jed when I say that this might have been the best version I've seen either on-screen or on paper. Action and blood from beginning to end, and Sting-Flair gets blown off with the Stinger victorious, at least for now. This one was even more impressive since you didn't have the easy surrender that was JJ Dillon on the Horseman team. I know he was gone, but WCW would probably have found someone to use in his place at that point to make sure that the Horsemen were protected. Jed avoided that, which is a point in his favor. I'm guessing that the next program to logically come out of this would be Sting-Sid.
Great job, my friend!
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Sept 6, 2010 14:11:08 GMT -5
Next, the WrestleWar main event finish is too clean. Flair goes over right in the middle with a passout submission, no interference and no cheating, and Sting does a stretcher job in a match he probably shouldn't have been in in the first place due to his bad knee. I guess this is more of a question: How do you build future rematches off of that finish? by declaring he shouldn't have been in the match due to his bad knee? In fact, anytime someone is taken out on a stretcher, it pretty much means one of the participants when to far so a rematch makes perfect sense
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Post by simongr81 on Sept 7, 2010 8:56:49 GMT -5
I figured one of the guys was Steamboat. Another good chapter. Thank you. If you knew you're 1989 WCW history he was obvious. The other guy I thought was fairly obvious, too. One chapter, left!
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Post by garretta on Sept 7, 2010 13:15:49 GMT -5
What's next for you, Simon? Have you come up with an idea yet?
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Post by simongr81 on Sept 7, 2010 14:49:24 GMT -5
What's next for you, Simon? Have you come up with an idea yet? Not sure. In fact may throw some ideas your way. Expect an email
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Post by angryauthor on Sept 8, 2010 14:22:26 GMT -5
What's next for you, Simon? Have you come up with an idea yet? Not sure. In fact may throw some ideas your way. Expect an email Whoa! Jed, Simon's turning HEEL! Unless we're the heels, and he's turning face! All I know is he's sowing the seeds to leave the RTB stable! He's turning to others for help! Outsiders! I just don't know who the third man of their group of Outsiders is though...
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