|
Post by 8-BitAssassin on Dec 10, 2010 18:53:02 GMT -5
Not saying the kid was right because I wasn't there, but if an old guy attacks me, he's going to get hit back.
If the guy died because he was too feeble to be fighting, then logic dictates that he shouldn't have started a fistfight.
Idiot.
|
|
|
Post by salsashark on Dec 10, 2010 18:54:41 GMT -5
And people wonder why I despise adolescent males. What a ridiculous generalization. You could replace "adolescent males" with anything "women," "black people," or whatever if the guy described was any of the above, and it would sound equally as dumb. There's no need to paint everyone in the same swath (especially a negative one).
|
|
|
Post by Cyno on Dec 10, 2010 18:56:16 GMT -5
Sounds like a freak accident. He should probably be charged with a minor assault charge, if at all. He was acting in self-defense and obviously there was no intent to kill. It's enough of an accident where even involuntary manslaughter seems excessive.
|
|
MolotovMocktail
Grimlock
Home of the 5-time, 5-time, 5-time, 5-time 5-time Super Bowl Champion 49ers-and Wrestlemania 31
Posts: 13,999
|
Post by MolotovMocktail on Dec 10, 2010 19:27:36 GMT -5
As a lawyer, here is the law regarding battery, murder, manslaughter, and self-defense:
Battery is an offensive touching of another person. It doesn't matter if it's a punch, kick, or finger poke in the chest-you can be convicted of it, though obviously the severity varies depending on the nature of the touching. However, it is an affirmative defense to say that you are acting in self-defense if the other person initiated the touching. Mere words are never provocation for self-defense, but a physical attack is.
Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. First-degree murder must show premeditation, or must be done during the commission of specific dangerous felonies like rape, robbery, arson, or kidnapping. Second-degree murder is killing without malice, such as acting recklessly enough to have a conscious disregard for human life.
Involuntary manslaughter is killing another person through negligence-behaving in a manner a reasonable person would not.
Self-defense is an affirmative defense to either murder or manslaughter if you respond with the appropriate level of force. If someone attacks you with non-deadly force, you are only authorized to use non-deadly force in response. But if someone attacks you with deadly force, you may respond with deadly force.
Now that I have all the legal mumbo-jumbo out of the way:
The prosecution will have to show for first-degree murder that the killing was premeditated. While premeditation can literally occur in less than a second, there is no evidence here that the employee intended to kill the victim at any time. And while the employee's actions against an old man were shocking, they don't rise to conscious disregard for human life needed for the recklessness for second-degree murder.
For manslaughter, they need to show that the employee behaved unreasonably to show negligent action. While punching an old man can be seen as unreasonable, he was responding to an attack by the victim, and it could not be reasonably foreseen by the average reasonable person that he would knock false teeth down the man's throat. He responded to non-deadly force with non-deadly force, and the consequence could not be reasonably seen beforehand. Therefore, there is a valid self-defense argument and a consequence that the average person would not have foreseen.
For battery, see above. The employee was physically provoked by an offensive touching (it is still self-defense if the other person attacks but does not actually make contact), and responded with the appropriate level of non-deadly force. Valid self-defense argument here too.
|
|
PKO
King Koopa
Posts: 12,621
|
Post by PKO on Dec 10, 2010 19:39:16 GMT -5
From the thread title it sounded like this would be a freak accident.
So this 67 year old guy was causing a disturbance and tried to attack an employee, who swung back. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and we can all say he shouldn't have swung back, but in his place I would say a large number of people would do the exact same thing.
|
|
|
Post by Orange on Dec 10, 2010 19:45:47 GMT -5
It probably makes me a bad person, but the first thing I think of is the episode of Fresh Prince when Will tells Sherman Hemsley to drop dead and he does.
But yeah I'm sure the dude didn't punch him thinking "I hope this kills you old man!". Just a freak situation, albeit an unfortunate one.
|
|
|
Post by Cela on Dec 10, 2010 20:18:05 GMT -5
Well its good to see Kimbo Slice found employment.
|
|
Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
|
Post by Bub (BLM) on Dec 10, 2010 20:21:46 GMT -5
Okay, if the employee only hit the guy ONCE in self defense, after he was swung at first, he shouldn't face ANY charges for this. I don't care if the old fart died or not, he threw the first punch.
|
|
|
Post by neal on Dec 10, 2010 20:26:19 GMT -5
Old man takes a swing a guy, said guy retaliates, a freak accident happens and old man dies. Its unfortunate but I hope the guy can get off on a minor charge. It's worded as if it was self defense turned wrong and just because the man was elderly doesn't make anymore wrong or right in my book. My exact thoughts. I work in retail and have been attacked by customers more than once. When you're being attacked you don't take much thought about their age, you go into instinct mode.
|
|
|
Post by Neo Het Is Evil Dead on Dec 10, 2010 20:44:24 GMT -5
What? Someone had to.
|
|
|
Post by tigermaskxxxvii on Dec 10, 2010 23:25:47 GMT -5
"I wasn't even supposed to be here today!!!!!!" I'm definitely not condoning hitting the elderly And that's where we part ways ;D
|
|
|
Post by 8-BitAssassin on Dec 10, 2010 23:33:18 GMT -5
What? Someone had to. As long as we're going this route..........
|
|
|
Post by Madman Szalinski on Dec 11, 2010 2:01:39 GMT -5
I didn't know Drago worked at BK now.
|
|
The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,359
|
Post by The Ichi on Dec 11, 2010 2:47:05 GMT -5
Old man takes a swing a guy, said guy retaliates, a freak accident happens and old man dies. Its unfortunate but I hope the guy can get off on a minor charge. It's worded as if it was self defense turned wrong and just because the man was elderly doesn't make anymore wrong or right in my book. My exact thoughts. I work in retail and have been attacked by customers more than once. When you're being attacked you don't take much thought about their age, you go into instinct mode. I'm curious as to how you're still employed, because I work retail too and if I was being attacked, any retaliation would have me fired on the spot. You're taught to let the police handle any situation like that.
|
|
Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
|
Post by Bub (BLM) on Dec 11, 2010 3:29:40 GMT -5
My exact thoughts. I work in retail and have been attacked by customers more than once. When you're being attacked you don't take much thought about their age, you go into instinct mode. I'm curious as to how you're still employed, because I work retail too and if I was being attacked, any retaliation would have me fired on the spot. You're taught to let the police handle any situation like that. Where you work obviously doesn't care about your well being. Let's say you get attacked, but you can't touch the attacker. Do you just have to get beat up for ten minutes while the police are on their way? At my job, it's common knowledge that if a customer attacks you, you kick that customer's ass in self-defense. THEN you call the police.
|
|
|
Post by Joe Galt on Dec 11, 2010 3:39:05 GMT -5
This reminds me of a situation that I was in a month ago. I am usually a pretty upbeat type of guy, and asked a customer, "How are you doing tonight?" His response was, "F you." I didn`t say anything else to the guy. I had all of this built up rage inside, but I let it go. I am happy to have my job, and I have a family to support. I always remember to remember the consequences to whatever my actions may be. This story with Burger King, reminds me that what I did was certainly the right choice.
|
|
|
Post by slasher911 on Dec 11, 2010 3:40:31 GMT -5
My exact thoughts. I work in retail and have been attacked by customers more than once. When you're being attacked you don't take much thought about their age, you go into instinct mode. I'm curious as to how you're still employed, because I work retail too and if I was being attacked, any retaliation would have me fired on the spot. You're taught to let the police handle any situation like that. Really? We keep a baseball bat under the counter for those situations And I've seen Clint Eastwood kick way too much ass to underestimate senior citizens...
|
|
The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,359
|
Post by The Ichi on Dec 11, 2010 3:43:06 GMT -5
I'm curious as to how you're still employed, because I work retail too and if I was being attacked, any retaliation would have me fired on the spot. You're taught to let the police handle any situation like that. Where you work obviously doesn't care about your well being. Let's say you get attacked, but you can't touch the attacker. Do you just have to get beat up for ten minutes while the police are on their way? At my job, it's common knowledge that if a customer attacks you, you kick that customer's ass in self-defense. THEN you call the police. I don't agree with it, but those are the regulations. I've never heard of a retail chain that tells their employers "If someone attacks you, just kick the bastards ass. Don't worry about consequences, they had it coming." That's how it works sadly.
|
|
|
Post by noleafclover1980 on Dec 11, 2010 4:00:13 GMT -5
^ That kinda stuff generally ends up at the discretion of the manager. Not many HR reps are so stuck on the rules that if a customer starts wailing on you, you'll get fired for defending yourself. I know I sure as hell won't just take an ass whipping while I wait for security to save my ass.
|
|
|
Post by Young Game on Dec 11, 2010 4:23:13 GMT -5
I seriously doubt that anybody would have the same attitude about this if the customer that was killed was the same age as the employee. If they were the same age, I seriously doubt the customer would have choked on the aforementioned dentures. Unless, of course, this customer was a glass head. In which case his punch would have been weak and pathetic, and inspired only laughter from said employee.
|
|