Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2010 10:46:41 GMT -5
You mentioned "character depth," but then talked only about PG era stuff.
WWF/WCW weren't exactly rich with depth of character if you ask me.
I see a lot of depth in guys like Punk, Edge, Miz, Daniel Bryan, and Orton and to a lot potential in Sheamus, Del Rio, and Swagger to flesh out their characters.
I'd say that's plenty considering a show can't have all deep characters. They need extras and side characters too.
I'm not sure what you're basing your argument on about character depth, but I'd say its about the same now as it ever was.
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percymania
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Percymania will live forever! Oh yeah!
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Post by percymania on Dec 24, 2010 13:25:47 GMT -5
I don't remember anyone complaining in the 80s, except maybe owners of other promotions. Dave Meltzer and the other "dirt sheet" writers at the time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2010 13:56:01 GMT -5
Maybe because we were those same kids in the '80s that wrestling was geared towards back then? Hmm?
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Post by Raja Lion on Dec 24, 2010 13:56:46 GMT -5
I don't remember anyone complaining in the 80s, except maybe owners of other promotions. Where was the outlet to complain? Its not like it is now where theres instant feedback after a hammerlock in any given match. That said, go back and take a look at some issues of Pro Wrestling Illustrated and read the letters that fans wrote. There was plenty of complaining, especially about Hogan or Flair.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2010 14:02:56 GMT -5
I don't remember anyone complaining in the 80s, except maybe owners of other promotions. Where was the outlet to complain? Its not like it is now where theres instant feedback after a hammerlock in any given match. That said, go back and take a look at some issues of Pro Wrestling Illustrated and read the letters that fans wrote. There was plenty of complaining, especially about Hogan or Flair. Yeah, forget the stories, which were all pretty much crap. "Hogan can't wrestle, he's a poser and a showman. Ric Flair is a REAL wrestler!" "Ric Flair is a blatant cheater by getting himself DQ'ed, he should be stripped of his title!" "Ricky Morton is the best! He can beat Ric Flair easily because he's more handsome!" I never said they were ALL geniuses.
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Post by mikey_editor on Dec 24, 2010 14:23:43 GMT -5
All viewer generations go through this. Vince has known what he is doing and even he has stepped away out front (hastened by Linda's public ambitions). The viewers themselves get old. Their faves get old/quit/drugged away and they think the world is spinning too fast. I would pop for a Mr. Perfect or Rick Rude classic appearance, yet they chose to coke themselves out. Bobby got sick and is sad to see nowadays because he isn't there anymore. Only Taker reduced schedule (with now-expected fake deaths) and HHH will have a final hurrah. I do not put HBK in their class. Funny how only Mick Foley maintains a believability from that era.
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Fiddleford H. McGucket
El Dandy
My Mind's been gone for 30-odd years! Can't Break what's already broken!
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Post by Fiddleford H. McGucket on Dec 24, 2010 15:04:21 GMT -5
My take on the whole thing......
The landscape has changed, both in the eyes of the fans and in the business itself. The "real" fans still expect the compelling storylines, "Epic" matchups, and cutthroat competition that were common in the attitude era. The fact of the matter is that it won't happen. It doesn't have to happen either.... You, Me, and all the other Fans will watch because.....we like wrestling. At the end of the day that's the reason. We LIKE the product, and we WANT it to improve.....we HOPE that this week will be the week that the booking is better. We don't even demand perfection, we don't care in the long-run who wins or loses.....all that we want is for each week to be marginally better than the previous.
The sad fact is though.....Itdoesn't HAVE to improve. Vince doesn't HAVE to put on a better show. There is no mainstream alternative to Papa McMahon's brand of Crack. No WCW Methidone to give us our fix.....The closest thing is TNA, and that's like comparing a Banquet to Nutrient Suppliment #362. Sure you may get the quantittative equivilent.....but not the quality.
So what if the product isn't "meant for us" anymore? Nothing has really changed. Storylines are no more mature than when we had someone threatening to chop off Val Venis's tallywhacker or Earthquake made burgers out of Jake Roberts's pet snake. The product has always been marketed to those of a "certain Mindset" those that can suspend disbelief and believe that a Backbreaker on steel steps "hurts More" or that doing the Worm makes your chops knock people out, or that Destrucity is a real word.
To put it bluntly.....Yeah it's not meant for us anymore.....nor is it meant for us any less. It's still meant or the marks first and foremost....not the one's we brand "mark" as an insult to thier intellect, but those that are willing to suspend disbelief for a few hours a week and sit back and ENJOY wrestling. Yeah, we can nitpick, and riff and tear apart the minutia of the matches, but at the end of the day if we aren't having fun anymore who's the real "smart" fan?
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Post by Andrew is Good on Dec 24, 2010 15:30:13 GMT -5
I don't get the excuse of having stupid things on television be, well, you're not in that demographic anymore. A lot of the wrestlers got into wrestling because they watched it when they were children. And back then, you didn't have the Hornswoggle court being under the ring. You still had great matches, with good people vs bad people, and people bought into that. When I was in Edmonton, there were these kids with a sign about Vickie Guerrero about being fat or something. They hated her. There was nothing goofy about it. They liked guys like Rey Mysterio, Edge, Big Show, etc. They liked the babyfaces and hated the heels.
I don't understand this concept of putting out stupid things on television, and having to accept stupid things on television because I'm not in the demographic anymore. I don't think wrestling would have been as successful back in the day if they had stupid stuff like that. A lot of kids either believe, or they get sucked into the drama and suspend disbelief. They're not stupid.
I would like to go back to school for stuff like this, and this might end up being a wall of text, but here we go. At a certain age, you can show babies a slideshow of pictures. It's a box on a table. In the next frame, the box inches closer to the edge. The next, it's almost half way off the table. And in the next, it's floating there beside the table. The baby is shocked and bothered by this. The reason is because it violates logic. They assumed that the box would tip over. They can recognize when something's absurd. So, it's hurting the business a bit because it's taking them out of the suspension of disbelief, and of course, the general story in wrestling of good vs evil.
Wade Barrett getting heat is important, incredibly important. Because if he's not, then the kids aren't going to hate him, and in turn, love any babyface he goes up against.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Dec 25, 2010 4:30:33 GMT -5
I don't get the excuse of having stupid things on television be, well, you're not in that demographic anymore. A lot of the wrestlers got into wrestling because they watched it when they were children. And back then, you didn't have the Hornswoggle court being under the ring. You still had great matches, with good people vs bad people, and people bought into that. When I was in Edmonton, there were these kids with a sign about Vickie Guerrero about being fat or something. They hated her. There was nothing goofy about it. They liked guys like Rey Mysterio, Edge, Big Show, etc. They liked the babyfaces and hated the heels. I don't understand this concept of putting out stupid things on television, and having to accept stupid things on television because I'm not in the demographic anymore. I don't think wrestling would have been as successful back in the day if they had stupid stuff like that. A lot of kids either believe, or they get sucked into the drama and suspend disbelief. They're not stupid. I would like to go back to school for stuff like this, and this might end up being a wall of text, but here we go. At a certain age, you can show babies a slideshow of pictures. It's a box on a table. In the next frame, the box inches closer to the edge. The next, it's almost half way off the table. And in the next, it's floating there beside the table. The baby is shocked and bothered by this. The reason is because it violates logic. They assumed that the box would tip over. They can recognize when something's absurd. So, it's hurting the business a bit because it's taking them out of the suspension of disbelief, and of course, the general story in wrestling of good vs evil. Wade Barrett getting heat is important, incredibly important. Because if he's not, then the kids aren't going to hate him, and in turn, love any babyface he goes up against. This is the crux of it right here. The target demographic isn't the reason this product isn't for us anymore. It's used as an excuse to make stupid TV. The booking is lazy, the comedy is lame. That could be happening with any rating but it wasn't in PG 80s and Attitude 90's.
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Ian Austin
Don Corleone
All will be well
Posts: 1,516
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Post by Ian Austin on Dec 25, 2010 4:38:25 GMT -5
IC Champ - Dolph Ziggler US Champ - Daniel Bryan CM Punk feuding with John Cena.
I honestly have no idea why there's complaints considering the above three items. Each one is a fantastic 'for the future' slice of fried gold. And yet people are STILL whining?
Urgh.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Dec 25, 2010 5:05:56 GMT -5
2010 has been a good year. Best since 06. Can they keep it going though? Raw has been the best since the Evolution run but it's on shakey ground right now. This nexus angle is starting to seem like a massive waste of time. Their fun loving nerd virgin character isn't doing Bryan any favors. Is the Cena/Punk feud going to be predictably one sided?
Smackdown just got leveled with releases, the Edge/Kane feud wasn't very good, and they're starting to do too much 09 Raw type humor. The heels are keeping that ship afloat.
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Post by strykerdarksilence on Dec 25, 2010 6:26:15 GMT -5
I have vastly preferred the last 3-4 years over anything in the Attitude era.
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anglarite
Don Corleone
...enchantment!
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Post by anglarite on Dec 25, 2010 6:31:52 GMT -5
About time someone realized it.
So at one side, we have smarks, who constantly complain about the product, refuse to order ppvs if the card has more than one less-than-five-star matches on it, and even if they watch it, they complain about basically any aspect. At the other side, we have marks who gladly fork over eighty bucks to show their kid the manly world of John Cena beating the living crap out of dastardly Wade Barrett. Gee, I wonder which one of these two groups should be WWE's target, considering they actually have to pay their people.
Heck, smarks even tear apart the product they get for free on television, while for a mark is more than enough to see John Cena or Rey Mysterio. People ain't gonna pay to see Zack Ryder, or Kaval, or Bryan Danielson. They pay to see Cena, Orton, the Game, the Undertaker and the little chihuahua.
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Post by FUNK_US/BRODUS on Dec 25, 2010 8:20:25 GMT -5
Thisyear has been one of the best in recent memory. Despite Cena, its been great, things are going up from here IMO.
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Post by texaswhopper on Dec 25, 2010 9:33:45 GMT -5
People often ask me how can you sit through a bad episode of RAW? I say cause I've watched 10/14 Impact. I can take ANYTHING.
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Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bye
Posts: 16,450
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Post by . on Dec 25, 2010 10:43:25 GMT -5
There's nothing compelling about Mae Young giving birth to a hand or Sable wearing paint on her nips... Where I come from that's called trash. Why is the attitude era reduced to one horrible skit they did? Yeah, let's forget Austin vs Mcmahon, The Taker/Kane/Mankind fued, DX, The Nation, Corporate Rock, Test vs Shane and the Mean Street Posse, the MMA crossovers, HHH marrying Steph, Mike Tyson, the almost weekly debuts of all time greats like Jericho and Angle, the harcore 24/7 rule, Austin's heel turn, etc, etc, It's far easier and more convienant then to list all the positives about that era instead: HURRR BABY HAND WUZ TURRIBLE AND REMEMBA MARK AND DA TRANNY BLLAAAARRGHH
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Post by the zookeepah! on Dec 25, 2010 10:56:04 GMT -5
I agree. I've been enjoying TNA alot more recently. And I never thought I would be saying that. I hate the direction they're going in, far too much John Cena for my liking.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2010 11:06:37 GMT -5
So, does a critical analysis of the character development really matter nowdays considering the product is marketed towards elementary school age children ? . . . . . I just don't think the majority of young viewers nowdays don't really care what goes on outside of the wrestler's in-ring persona. And you're watching TNA for this? They are the worst at character continuity and building dynamic personas.
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Dec 25, 2010 11:20:53 GMT -5
The Attitude Era had some of the greatest angles and characters in history, but yeah it was all about Mae Young and Hoes.
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.
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bye
Posts: 16,450
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Post by . on Dec 25, 2010 11:46:30 GMT -5
I'm going to repost this again as it should be. PG isn't the problem at all. Nitro was able to kick RAW's ass in the ratings for a year and a half with a PG product. The thing is, WCW did PG the right way. They didn't have bad language or excessive blood or sexual content, but they did have serious angles with interesting characters that were aimed at adults. WWE's problem these days is that they're doing exactly what Vince always badmouthed ECW for, which is trying to only appeal to a portion of their fanbase rather than the entire fanbase. WWE is so concerned with little kids that they're neglecting the large adult section of fans. Again going back to Nitro, little kids and adults alike loved things like the NWO vs. Sting angle, just further proving that PG isn't the problem. Trying to be a kids show is the problem. '
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