Dave at the Movies
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
VINTAGE D-DAY DAVE! Always cranking dat thing.
Posts: 18,224
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Post by Dave at the Movies on Mar 11, 2011 21:18:35 GMT -5
This was a problem of the audience and half the writers not being on the same page as the other half of the writers. One or two of the writers obvious had this very clever and awesome character arc for Hassan, where everyone mistreats him and acts like he's a foreigner and terrorist, and he proudly refuses to be quiet about it, which just prompts more racism. And then he snaps and goes, "Fine, if that's what you want me to be, I'll do it and you can all go to hell." Boom. Bad guy, the WWE has their evil terrorist character... but believable motivations and an open door for a face turn (and face Muslim character) down the road. But, the problem was, there was always this very uncomfortable undercurrent, most of it coming from the announcers, that he was bad for talking about it in the first place. King wasn't exuding any shades of gray when he wished Hassan would shut up... we weren't supposed to be noting lovable ol' Lawler being confronted with his own ambivalence, we were just supposed to go Yeah! America! So it was this really really weird situation where Hassan clearly was right about everything, but no one acted like he was right, and the crowds weren't listening anyway. He was an evil Muslim and a sympathetic Muslim at the same time. And that's not shades of gray, that's just a mess. I really think it's because of a split in the writing team, or maybe the writers wanted shades of gray but Vince was determined to just have a terrorist? I don't know. I completely agree with you for the most part although I think it is just because RAW's head writer is a former sitcom writer who doesn't know what the hell he is doing half the time. Sure he wrote great promos for Edge and Christian and The Rock but the storylines(if you can even call them that) have been pretty bad since Russo left. Yes i'm saying it. Russo is better than Gewritz.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Mar 11, 2011 21:34:14 GMT -5
I mean within the specific context of Muhammad Hassan himself and his character. Come on. What is the specific context of his character though? That's what I didn't get about the gimmick. It was a tweener through and through while he was on RAW from my perspective. I think what people don't understand about the gimmick is that WWE totally meant for it to be a heel gimmick all along. They had no real plans for it to be anything but. The problem is that they got into complicated political issues and the truth about the stuff they were having Hassan say in his promos were very true but they obviously meant for it to be exaggerating and from what I've seen all over the country since 9/11 it wasn't that exaggerated. Remember the General Adnan gimmick who managed Slaughter? There are stories that he looked so much like Saddam Hussein that people wouldn't even let him into restaurants because of it and he wasn't even kayfabing. He was a heel on RAW because he either went into his match and blatantly cheated or whined when things didn't go his way. AND THEN kept played the victim and called discrimination for when he got booed. edit: this was the same thing that happened after they did the tasteless aspect with him, as he had a promo after the fact saying that if he wasn't a Muslim, people would just have called it a beat down, and how can you say the people that I hired to help beat down the undertaker were middle eastern when they were wearing ski masks and etc. etc. etc. It would have worked better had a. they didn't have the people that jumped undertaker dressed in camo pants and ski masks or carry Daivari away like they did, and B. if the London bombings didn't happen the day it was aired.
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Post by imbordisux on Mar 11, 2011 22:05:13 GMT -5
Not to insult anybody here, but I'm kind of sick of the revisionist history surrounding Hassan.
Everybody says that he was "sympathetic" in his initial promo, but go back and watch it. Yes, Hassan himself came across as sympathetic and well-mannered, but then Daivari was standing there yelling at the audience and pointing his finger at them. It was obvious from the start that the character was meant to be a heel, as no face would align himself with a manager that yells at the audience like that. Granted, he was probably meant to be a more disingenuous, smarmy heel than he eventually ended-up becoming (more of a whiny loud-mouth), but it was definitely a heel dynamic.
Plus, by the third (IIRC) promo, the character was changed to be much more in-your-face; no longer soft-spoken or well-mannered, he instead grouped all non-Muslims/non-Arabas in America together and accused them all of being racist/prejudiced against him. The character was being very hypocritical by doing what he accused others of doing to him: stereotyping.
Now I don't know about you, but if somebody accuses you of something before taking the time to get their facts straight, wouldn't that make them a "heel"? Stereotyping you, putting words in your mouth, whining non-stop about their own straw-men arguments, and not bothering to get to know you... these aren't "heelish" actions?
I'm not saying that his character didn't make some valid points, but it's hard to get behind him yelling at people that didn't do anything to him.
Just like fans that claim they "don't understand" why Punk is a heel (despite, ya know, stereotyping every single person in the audience and yelling at them for things that most of them don't even do), I think that fans that say they "don't understand" why Hassan - as presented - was roundly booed by fans and hated by other heels are just attempting to appear "smarter" and "more open-minded" than the rest of the pack.
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Post by chunkylover53 on Mar 12, 2011 0:56:32 GMT -5
I still say he was sympathetic in his initial debut and RAW run. It was just that, with that music, he was gonna get heel heat like HELL no matter where he wrestled. I thought it was even dumber that they go out of their way to announce him as being from "Detroit, Michigan" and the fans STILL chant "USA!" at him. I stand by my assertion that that character was too "deep" for the "at face value" thinking of a lot of wrestling fans. He was definitely sympathetic in his vignettes, and his first one the crowd wasn't sure how they were supposed to react. And then he ended the promo by saying "Praise Allah". Those 2 words killed any chance of him being a face, or even a tweener. WWE knew damn well that the crowd would boo that, and it quickly turned him into a stereotypical evil "foreigner". Ugh, seriously. That whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth now I fail to see how Hassan was suppose to be sympathetic by any means. He was an Arab-American who wanted to be treated with respect and dignity like anybody else, okay, but the problem was, he was NEVER discriminated against, he just said he was. Anytime something didn't go his way, he would point to racism. The fans and other WWE superstars didn't hate him because he was Arab, they hated him because he was a self-righteous prick who played the race card.
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Post by foreveryoung on Mar 12, 2011 1:05:10 GMT -5
It was one of the few characters I was interested in at the time. He was getting mega heat and was just about over that threshold until it was nixed
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lionheart21
Patti Mayonnaise
Once did a thing...
Posts: 30,573
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Post by lionheart21 on Mar 12, 2011 1:14:26 GMT -5
I loved the character, but the terror angle was ridiculous for 2 reasons:
1) It was obviously in poor taste due to the terrorist attacks
2) It went completely against everything that the Hassan character sttod for. He was tired of being labeled as a terrorist and discriminated against as a result of his heritage, and just wanted to be accepted as a Muslim-American.
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nate5054
Hank Scorpio
Lucky to be alive in the Chris Jericho Era
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Post by nate5054 on Mar 12, 2011 1:23:55 GMT -5
Do you look back on this angle and say this was very poor taste on the WWE's part ? I know there was a bombing in London around the time they shot this angle, but even if that had not had occurred, could we still look back and say it was a bit too much. For crying out loud, you had a guy depicting an Arab, coming to the ring with guys depicting insurgents, such as Al Qaeda. I know it was revealed that Val Venis was one of them, but has it ever been documented as to who the other "terrorist" were ? The idea initially was great. Al Muslim who was tired of anti-Muslim backlash after 9/11. However, that was far too complex an idea for them to pull off, so it just went to a stereotypical "let's insult the crowd so the crowd will boo the foreigner" deal that's been seen thousands of times. The timing of his last appearance was unfortunate, but honestly when it was happening it just seemed like a typical "heel leads a group beatdown" moment that I've also seen thousands of times. I thought UPN grossly overreacted to it myself, but those are the times we live(d) in I guess.
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nate5054
Hank Scorpio
Lucky to be alive in the Chris Jericho Era
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Post by nate5054 on Mar 12, 2011 1:28:21 GMT -5
How in the heck does that make him a heel though? Good question. The answer is probably too deep or political for this board, but the only thing I'd say is to first look at the feelings of the audience.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Mar 12, 2011 1:45:54 GMT -5
Can you believe Diavari actually had more of a wrestling career than the guy he was managing? Yes, because Daivari is actually a good wrestler and has passion for wrestling. Hassan was green as hell, a one trick pony, and only wanted to use WWE as a stepping stone to an acting career. Which he still waiting for. Did he give up on that too because I haven't seen anything from him or heard anything about the guy since he left. he like dispeared.
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Post by Alexander The So-so on Mar 12, 2011 1:56:42 GMT -5
Not to insult anybody here, but I'm kind of sick of the revisionist history surrounding Hassan. Everybody says that he was "sympathetic" in his initial promo, but go back and watch it. Yes, Hassan himself came across as sympathetic and well-mannered, but then Daivari was standing there yelling at the audience and pointing his finger at them. It was obvious from the start that the character was meant to be a heel, as no face would align himself with a manager that yells at the audience like that. Granted, he was probably meant to be a more disingenuous, smarmy heel than he eventually ended-up becoming (more of a whiny loud-mouth), but it was definitely a heel dynamic. Plus, by the third (IIRC) promo, the character was changed to be much more in-your-face; no longer soft-spoken or well-mannered, he instead grouped all non-Muslims/non-Arabas in America together and accused them all of being racist/prejudiced against him. The character was being very hypocritical by doing what he accused others of doing to him: stereotyping. Now I don't know about you, but if somebody accuses you of something before taking the time to get their facts straight, wouldn't that make them a "heel"? Stereotyping you, putting words in your mouth, whining non-stop about their own straw-men arguments, and not bothering to get to know you... these aren't "heelish" actions? I'm not saying that his character didn't make some valid points, but it's hard to get behind him yelling at people that didn't do anything to him. Just like fans that claim they "don't understand" why Punk is a heel (despite, ya know, stereotyping every single person in the audience and yelling at them for things that most of them don't even do), I think that fans that say they "don't understand" why Hassan - as presented - was roundly booed by fans and hated by other heels are just attempting to appear "smarter" and "more open-minded" than the rest of the pack. Very good points. If you rewatch his debut promo, there's hardly anything likeable or sympathetic about him. He interrupted a loveable babyface like Mick Foley in order to go on a self-righteous rant. He called the troops in Iraq "gutless cowards" and "heartless infidels." And he backed away when Foley challenged him to put his money where his mouth is and step into the ring. Some of the things he said may have had truth, but like with other heels that speak the truth, the WAY they say it ruins their message. If Hassan had truly been a shade-of-gray tweener, he wouldn't have been portrayed with heel tactics from the get-go. He could still have been angry and self-righteous, but limited it to a sympathetic message: "all I want is my natural rights. Muslim-Americans are peace-loving people who were just as horrified at 9/11 as any American was. Americans are normally decent and tolerant people, but they've let fear turn into ignorance and prejudice. I'm here in the WWE to prove that we deserve to be respected and treated more fairly." Something like that would've accomplished the character's potential of being a sympathetic and complex tweener. But it didn't happen. I think the ridiculous extent of his heel persona on Smackdown, with the over-the-top terrorist and fundamentalist colors, has made a lot of people forget that he wasn't much better from the start.
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MolotovMocktail
Grimlock
Home of the 5-time, 5-time, 5-time, 5-time 5-time Super Bowl Champion 49ers-and Wrestlemania 31
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Post by MolotovMocktail on Mar 12, 2011 2:54:00 GMT -5
It was just a victim of bad timing. Otherwise, we had evil Russians during the Cold War, so why would evil Arabs during the War on Terror be any different?
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Mar 12, 2011 9:02:24 GMT -5
So Hassan apparently has terrorist buddies on speed dial to attack a undead zombie.
So why even pretend to be a sympathetic character at all? Just use your buddies to beat everyone up.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
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Post by Bo Rida on Mar 12, 2011 9:55:38 GMT -5
Was a great character until they turned him overtly heel. It was a character which actually showed the prejudice of the audience. I remember when he slaughtered Ross and Lawler in that verbal debate where Ross had to resort to jingoistic slogans like "America....Love It Or Leave It". Ugh that was terrible, it's bad enough saying that to a foreigner but saying it to an American with at least semi-legitimate grievances was ridiculous.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Mar 12, 2011 10:47:23 GMT -5
If Muhammad Hassan was made into a cartoonish character like the Iron Sheik, there would had been some complainants but no controversy. The death blow of the character was the introduction of the terrorist cell. Had they not gone that route, he probably still be there. Hassan did get plenty of hate playing to the xenophobia. But as a wrestler, he was unremarkable.
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Post by bjboston on Mar 12, 2011 16:16:38 GMT -5
I loved it. I think the perfect place for bad taste is pro wrestling.
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Mar 12, 2011 19:14:11 GMT -5
Not to insult anybody here, but I'm kind of sick of the revisionist history surrounding Hassan. Everybody says that he was "sympathetic" in his initial promo, but go back and watch it. Yes, Hassan himself came across as sympathetic and well-mannered, but then Daivari was standing there yelling at the audience and pointing his finger at them. It was obvious from the start that the character was meant to be a heel, as no face would align himself with a manager that yells at the audience like that. I thought that was actually going to be his gimmick (which I actually thought was hilarious) He comes out week after week giving soft spoken, well mannered promos in English and then his manager giving the most angry sounding promo possible in Arabic. Still makes me crack up
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2011 19:29:05 GMT -5
Not to insult anybody here, but I'm kind of sick of the revisionist history surrounding Hassan. Everybody says that he was "sympathetic" in his initial promo, but go back and watch it. Yes, Hassan himself came across as sympathetic and well-mannered, but then Daivari was standing there yelling at the audience and pointing his finger at them. It was obvious from the start that the character was meant to be a heel, as no face would align himself with a manager that yells at the audience like that. I thought that was actually going to be his gimmick (which I actually thought was hilarious) He comes out week after week giving soft spoken, well mannered promos in English and then his manager giving the most angry sounding promo possible in Arabic. Still makes me crack up Farsi actually.
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Maniac Mitch
Mephisto
Mary Droppins? ...well I thought it was funny
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Post by Maniac Mitch on Mar 12, 2011 21:50:59 GMT -5
How in the heck does that make him a heel though? That's what I don't get. Arab Americans have been discriminated against in the U.S. It isn't like he was lying so why would he be considered a great heel? It doesn't at base value but as usual a heel takes something that normally could be morally right and distorts it into something hateable. In Hassan's case he brought up being discriminated against any time something didn't work out for him in the WWE, even though his heritage had nothing to do with it. It's like saying "How does punk being straightedge make him a heel?" Obviously it doesn't, it is his actions that stem from it that make him a heel. Exactly. The initial Hassan character was very interesting because he had a legitimate grievance, but he took it too far. He blamed every little thing on racism, even in cases where it obviously played no part. I think originally the plan was for him to reveal the "terrorists" as all being white guys (I recall Val Venis was one of them) and that the only reason people called them "terrorists" was because of Hassan's race. I remember hearing numerous WWE representatives in media interviews after it had aired (Linda McMahon being the most prominent) drawing attention to that, so I'm guessing they were going somewhere with it but then just decided to kibosh the whole thing due to the bad timing. Either that or WWE was just looking to do some damage control after the fact and offered up that information to deflect the negative criticism they were recieving. Side Note: What was the deal with Undertaker's murderous tendencies at the Great American Bash?
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Post by Bald Bull on Mar 12, 2011 22:02:21 GMT -5
Twas the curse of the Great American Bash. Someone had to die.
2004: Paul Bearer gets covered in concrete 2005: Hassan gets powerbombed STRAIGHT TO HELLLLLLLL 2006: *shutters* Punjabi Prison Match 2007: The Cruiserweight Title goes to Hornswoggle
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Mar 12, 2011 22:03:39 GMT -5
It was just a victim of bad timing. Otherwise, we had evil Russians during the Cold War, so why would evil Arabs during the War on Terror be any different? It's alot different, and I think people miss the point. This was not far after a real attack happened and a couple thousand people died in a building. For the most part the Cold War was just that, Cold, especially with the Russians, which is why you saw so many more Russian characters then let's say evil Vietnamese characters. As much as the Russians got heat, and the evil Japanese got heat, it was different then an evil Arab post 9-11.
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