saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Apr 15, 2011 0:18:15 GMT -5
I bought Dutch Mantell's book, "Tales from a Dirt Road," on WM weekend (from Dirty Dutch himself, no less) and am just about done with it.
He has a long chapter on his involvement on the booking committee in TNA, and in particular his takes on Vince Russo.
He doesn't bash Vince the way many have, and says they got along well enough even if they were almost always on opposite ends of the spectrum (Dutch wanting to tell the stories with wrestling, Vince wanting to do it with skits and promos).
The key that sums it up (and maybe this isn't news to others but I had never heard it) is a story about VR stopping him after a booking meeting to say something like this:
VR: I don't get it. DM: You don't get what. VR: The whole face/heel thing. I just don't get it.
I think (a) that VR was telling the truth, and (b) that it explains pretty much everything about his booking/writing decisions.
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Krimzon
Crow T. Robot
This guy is the man!
R.I.P. Deadpool
Posts: 43,870
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Post by Krimzon on Apr 15, 2011 0:36:32 GMT -5
Well that certainly explains a lot.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2011 5:01:11 GMT -5
I read this as SIMP and instantly I'm wondering what "Swerves in My Pants" would refer to exactly.
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Post by FUNK_US/BRODUS on Apr 15, 2011 5:09:13 GMT -5
I read this as SIMP and instantly I'm wondering what "Swerves in My Pants" would refer to exactly. I read it as SIAB, and automatically thought of "Swerve In A Box".
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The Sam
El Dandy
The Brainiest Sam of all
Posts: 8,423
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Post by The Sam on Apr 15, 2011 5:28:15 GMT -5
I thought it was SNAP, as in SNAP INTO A SLIM JIM! OOOOH YEAH!
I think Cornette had a similar story in one of his Who's Slamming Who radio call ins.
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Post by dlg3000 on Apr 15, 2011 6:48:38 GMT -5
While VR is a villain to say the least to some wrestling fans, I think he is well meaning. He just fails to realize that everyone is into sports entertainment. Wrestling fans want wrestling. If TNA is to succeed, it has to be an alternative where it is an entertaining wrestling show, not an entertainment show with wrestling on it every once in a while.
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Post by Michael Coello on Apr 15, 2011 10:33:36 GMT -5
Am I the only one who doesn't buy that Dutch Mantel, responsible for some of the worst stuff, was suddenly this wrestling centric guy?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2011 10:56:52 GMT -5
Am I the only one who doesn't buy that Dutch Mantel, responsible for some of the worst stuff, was suddenly this wrestling centric guy? Yeah, Mantell was responsible for the Last Rites match. Pretty sure that instantly disqualifies him from being good.
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Jimmy
Grimlock
Posts: 13,317
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Post by Jimmy on Apr 15, 2011 11:46:45 GMT -5
Am I the only one who doesn't buy that Dutch Mantel, responsible for some of the worst stuff, was suddenly this wrestling centric guy? Yeah, Mantell was responsible for the Last Rites match. Pretty sure that instantly disqualifies him from being good. Just like Mantell, I like Russo but the Last Rites mess had his name all over it given his similar booking of Taker/Kane stuff in the WWF and Vampiro/Sting/Demon stuff in WCW.
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Post by Michael Coello on Apr 15, 2011 11:54:49 GMT -5
Yeah, Mantell was responsible for the Last Rites match. Pretty sure that instantly disqualifies him from being good. Just like Mantell, I like Russo but the Last Rites mess had his name all over it given his similar booking of Taker/Kane stuff in the WWF and Vampiro/Sting/Demon stuff in WCW. but what about all the reports at the time from PWInsider notably, that said it was Dutch along with Tenay and Abyss himself who wrote it? Hell, even in the leaked scrpt, you can see where Dutch was used, and a lot of the crap that was around was under his jurisdiction. Plus, the man talks about Russo taking no responsibly, when Dutch has blamed everything bad ion someone else and is trying to pass himself off like he was this genius that TNA never used. BULL. F'N. CRAP. As for not getting "Fire Dutch" chants, it's cause no one knew who the F*** you are!
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bob
Salacious Crumb
The "other" Bob. FOC COURSE!
started the Madness Wars, Proudly the #1 Nana Hater on FAN
Posts: 78,757
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Post by bob on Apr 15, 2011 12:23:32 GMT -5
I VR: The whole face/heel thing. I just don't get it. I am genuinely confused how someone who has been booking wrestling as long he as has doesn't get faces and heels.
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Krimzon
Crow T. Robot
This guy is the man!
R.I.P. Deadpool
Posts: 43,870
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Post by Krimzon on Apr 15, 2011 16:12:07 GMT -5
I VR: The whole face/heel thing. I just don't get it. I am genuinely confused how someone who has been booking wrestling as long he as has doesn't get faces and heels. I don't think that he doesn't understand it, it's just that maybe he doesn't see the need for it. Maybe he thinks that they should just throw wrestlers out there and let the fans decide who they want to cheer/boo. That could be why so many characters in TNA are booked with such ambiguity.
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Celgress
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Superior One
Posts: 19,009
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Post by Celgress on Apr 15, 2011 19:07:21 GMT -5
.....The key that sums it up (and maybe this isn't news to others but I had never heard it) is a story about VR stopping him after a booking meeting to say something like this: VR: I don't get it. DM: You don't get what. VR: The whole face/heel thing. I just don't get it......
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MrBRulzOK
Wade Wilson
Mr No-Pants Heathen
Something Witty Here.
Posts: 26,719
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Post by MrBRulzOK on Apr 15, 2011 20:00:08 GMT -5
I am genuinely confused how someone who has been booking wrestling as long he as has doesn't get faces and heels. I don't think that he doesn't understand it, it's just that maybe he doesn't see the need for it. Maybe he thinks that they should just throw wrestlers out there and let the fans decide who they want to cheer/boo. That could be why so many characters in TNA are booked with such ambiguity. I can understand what Russo is going for. it's not exactly a bad idea in theory. In the hands of a competent writer than I could see the shades of grey idea working out. The problem though is that Russo simply isn't very good at writing those types of characters. Well that and he tries to cram so much plot in one episode that by the time you're finished watching it you have a foggy idea at best about what's going on with someone. Couple that with the numerous plot holes and logic problems in his storylines and it's easy to see why alot of people simply can't get into the storylines.
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Sektor
Unicron
The OTHER Big Red Machine.
Posts: 2,808
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Post by Sektor on Apr 15, 2011 20:15:41 GMT -5
While VR is a villain to say the least to some wrestling fans, I think he is well meaning. He just fails to realize that everyone is into sports entertainment. Wrestling fans want wrestling. If TNA is to succeed, it has to be an alternative where it is an entertaining wrestling show, not an entertainment show with wrestling on it every once in a while. But...they're the same thing.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2011 20:40:21 GMT -5
I don't think that he doesn't understand it, it's just that maybe he doesn't see the need for it. Maybe he thinks that they should just throw wrestlers out there and let the fans decide who they want to cheer/boo. That could be why so many characters in TNA are booked with such ambiguity. I can understand what Russo is going for. it's not exactly a bad idea in theory. In the hands of a competent writer than I could see the shades of grey idea working out. The problem though is that Russo simply isn't very good at writing those types of characters. Well that and he tries to cram so much plot in one episode that by the time you're finished watching it you have a foggy idea at best about what's going on with someone. Couple that with the numerous plot holes and logic problems in his storylines and it's easy to see why alot of people simply can't get into the storylines. Yeah, the idea could work in better hands. After all, it's a profession where people beat each other into unconsciousness on a daily basis - people who are saints wouldn't exactly get into it.
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Post by clashofchampains on Apr 15, 2011 20:50:31 GMT -5
It's pointless to have them at each other's throat since they were part of the same booking team from what, 05 to 09?
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Post by dlg3000 on Apr 15, 2011 21:58:27 GMT -5
While VR is a villain to say the least to some wrestling fans, I think he is well meaning. He just fails to realize that everyone is into sports entertainment. Wrestling fans want wrestling. If TNA is to succeed, it has to be an alternative where it is an entertaining wrestling show, not an entertainment show with wrestling on it every once in a while. But...they're the same thing. I meant to say that not everyone is into sports entertainment.
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Apr 15, 2011 22:15:24 GMT -5
In the book Dutch doesn't seem to be taking any sort of "all my ideas were good, everything I did was great, Russo effed it up" position.
He actually says Russo is a very good writer and very good with ideas -- such as creating angles and storylines to start a feud. His criticism, mainly, is that Russo wasn't adept at taking a good idea and moving it forward, from the initial conflict to the middle and then ending. He says that's why so many angles would start and just get dropped after one or two weeks, because Russo didn't know how to follow through on feuds after he started them.
Seeing as how that has been a benchmark of Russo's booking going back to WCW days, I think Dutch might be right.
And I believe the "I don't get the face/heel thing" rings true when you look at WCW and TNA under Russo and how often guys switch from face to heel to face to heel with no continuity or reason. If you don't understand that wrestling is ultimately, at its core, a morality play of Good vs. Evil, you don't handle the characters that way.
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Post by Chuckie Finster on Apr 15, 2011 22:25:53 GMT -5
Am I the only one who doesn't buy that Dutch Mantel, responsible for some of the worst stuff, was suddenly this wrestling centric guy? But the Last Rites match was just that, a wrestling match.
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