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Post by Codebreaker on Dec 27, 2011 2:08:30 GMT -5
At the height of his popularity, I absolutely hated Chris Benoit. Not to say I didn't enjoy him in the ring, because I did, but for some reason I just hated Chris Benoit the character (or lack thereof).
Similar story for Batista. I wasn't totally against his matches but I just never liked him, up until his final heel turn and his feud with Cena which I loved. Whether or not he qualifies for this thread or not though I'm not sure because even though he was over with marks/casuals, he definitely had a lot more detractors that someone like Benoit did overall IMO.
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Post by Paul Is Deadpool R.I.P on Dec 27, 2011 3:38:18 GMT -5
I never said that HBK was carried by anyone. All I was saying that if you look at his matches that are considered classics they're with talent that are known carriers. Look at his matches with Umaga, Khali, Batista. He couldn't carry them. Who did? Cena. HBK could look good against Big Men, because really it's a simple story to tell, and even a mediocre big man can sell that story. And with the exceptions on Vader, Khali and Umage, HBK usually had Big man/little man matches. However, he is nowhere near as good as people, including the IWC and even the WWE themselves, paint him to be. Then why bother bringing up the fact all his classic matches were fought with people you consider "carriers"? If you're not implying he was carried, then that's irrelevant. Most people would say HBK is a carrier himself. HBK/Batista matches were decent. HBK never really had any notable matches with Umaga or Khali. Maybe a forgettable Raw match each. Cena and Batista were more compatible. HBK has had a ton of great matches without them being big man vs little man matches. Infact, most of them aren't. The point I'm trying to make is that HBK was in the ring with people who were better workers than he was. HBK was a jack of all trades but a master of none. His memorable matches in the '90s were with Bret, Bulldog, Undertaker, Austin, Foley. Everyone of those guys had a certain area they were masters of. HBK didn't master anything, he was decent. I'll admit, that HBK was in a few of my favorite matches of all time, but those mostly have to do with the opponent and outcome than HBK himself. He's good, perhaps great, but not GOAT material.
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Post by Cam on Dec 27, 2011 7:44:48 GMT -5
Then why bother bringing up the fact all his classic matches were fought with people you consider "carriers"? If you're not implying he was carried, then that's irrelevant. Most people would say HBK is a carrier himself. HBK/Batista matches were decent. HBK never really had any notable matches with Umaga or Khali. Maybe a forgettable Raw match each. Cena and Batista were more compatible. HBK has had a ton of great matches without them being big man vs little man matches. Infact, most of them aren't. The point I'm trying to make is that HBK was in the ring with people who were better workers than he was. HBK was a jack of all trades but a master of none. His memorable matches in the '90s were with Bret, Bulldog, Undertaker, Austin, Foley. Everyone of those guys had a certain area they were masters of. HBK didn't master anything, he was decent. I'll admit, that HBK was in a few of my favorite matches of all time, but those mostly have to do with the opponent and outcome than HBK himself. He's good, perhaps great, but not GOAT material. But you could say that stuff about anyone. Most people who have great matches have them against someone else who is considered great. Look at a guy like Chris Benoit or Edge. They're best matches were with guys like Bret, Eddie Guerrero, Randy Orton etc. What's to say Benoit and Edge are "decent" but it's Eddie, Bret and Orton that made the matches special?
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Post by Paul Is Deadpool R.I.P on Dec 27, 2011 10:31:44 GMT -5
Evidently, you're not getting my argument. What I'm saying is that HBK gets the credit for most of his 3* and above matches. Sole credit alot of the time.
When the facts are he wasn't the sole contributor.
Hogan has had great matches with people who are known to suck. He did it with many monsters in the 80's who weren't worth thier own flesh in the ring.
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Post by Cam on Dec 27, 2011 10:37:08 GMT -5
Evidently, you're not getting my argument. What I'm saying is that HBK gets the credit for most of his 3* and above matches. Sole credit alot of the time. When the facts are he wasn't the sole contributor. Hogan has had great matches with people who are known to suck. He did it with many monsters in the 80's who weren't worth thier own flesh in the ring. He had "great" matches with Andre and Warrior because of the atmosphere and emotion in the matches. Those were big matches. The matches themselves were mediocre at best. As for not getting your argument, you seemed to be implying HBK was being carried in those matches. That is what I was debating. I don't think he deserves sole credit for all the great matches he's had, but you're giving him no credit.
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h
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,734
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Post by h on Dec 27, 2011 11:30:54 GMT -5
Rocky Maivia in all of his incarnations Stone Cold Steve Austin (although I enjoyed "Stunning" Steve Austin) Eddie Guerrero Shawn Michaels Edge Diamond Dallas Page Ric Flair Bubba Ray and D-Von Dudley...the rest of the family was great, and I've never understood why my two least favorites were the ones who made it big
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Post by austinariesfan88 on Dec 27, 2011 13:36:04 GMT -5
Beth Phoenix she is just so boring to me Brian kendrick again boring and overrated imo Paul London is much better Edge i like the guy but he shouldn't have been champ so many times, all his best matches are ladder/no dq/hardcore matches Christian is much better Low Ki just cool kicks and nothing else imo
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on Dec 27, 2011 20:33:14 GMT -5
It's weird, and not in any way a statement of fact for me, but I never "got" The Undertaker. Not taking away from his talent for a second, really, you HAVE to be good to stay on top for as long as he has with a gimmick that silly, but nothing he's done has ever really sucked me in.
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Post by repomanfan on Dec 27, 2011 20:35:17 GMT -5
It's weird, and not in any way a statement of fact for me, but I never "got" The Undertaker. Not taking away from his talent for a second, really, you HAVE to be good to stay on top for as long as he has with a gimmick that silly, but nothing he's done has ever really sucked me in. Same here. Never been an Undertaker fan.
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Dec 28, 2011 16:50:33 GMT -5
Christopher Daniels. I have never been able to satisfactorily identify WHAT I can't stand about him.
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Post by repomanfan on Dec 31, 2011 18:04:51 GMT -5
I never said Jericho doesn't have psychology, that's all Jake. I just think Roberts is the better overall worker. And if Jericho doesn't plan out his matches, that's great, I hope he does the same with his interviews. Every great wrestler should be able to call a match in the ring be able to do a good unscripted promo. BTW, there seems to some sort of pattern. Jake, Kevin, Larry and Superstar all have something not so nice to say about Chris. These guys aren't blind, they know Jericho has been pushed to the moon and is overrated. Jake was calling Jericho boring as far back as 99. And BTW...Larry has a point. Why would Jericho(other than trying to get back at Larry for some reason) use the nickname "Living Legend" knowing full well that Zbyszko has been using that monicker for almost thirty years. I don't blame Larry one bit for being ticked off. Jericho doesn't plan out his interviews/promos. Watch his post-RAW stuff from 2003 with Austin. All unscripted, all entertaining. Four guys: Kevin Von Erich - Was only a star in Texas Jake Roberts - Drunken drug addict Larry Zbyszko - Hasbeen who can't let go Superstar Billy Graham - Someone who by most accounts is not a well liked person So there opinion to you is fact? 4 guys, none of whom who have ever worked with Chris Jericho, know best? No, sir. That's insane. What about Steve Austin, Shawn Michaels, Roddy Piper, Ricky Steamboat etc. who all have high amounts of praise for Jericho? Since Legends' opinions mean so much to you? This isn't about Jericho taking the Living Legend name. This is about Zbyszko being bitter about that, and that making his opinion about Chris Jericho biased. It's about Jericho being bitter, because Larry never put him "over" in WCW and the fact that he got twice the "pops" as Jericho, even as a "has been" commentator.
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Post by Citizen Snips Has Left on Dec 31, 2011 20:22:26 GMT -5
Christopher Daniels. I have never been able to satisfactorily identify WHAT I can't stand about him. Is it his freakish body shape? That's always really bothered me about him; his neck and arms are too long for his torso.
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Post by baronmordo on Jan 1, 2012 0:51:40 GMT -5
Oh please. Larry Z was only over when he feuded with Bruno, and that was because of Bruno. Jericho at his height was no top 10 player, but he still got way more heat than Larry ever did.
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Post by repomanfan on Jan 1, 2012 11:46:08 GMT -5
Oh please. Larry Z was only over when he feuded with Bruno, and that was because of Bruno. Jericho at his height was no top 10 player, but he still got way more heat than Larry ever did. LOL. Did you watch WCW? Do you even read or watch anything about wrestling history?Larry was actually very "Over" in WCW. And Chris did not get more "heat" than Larry ever did. At his height with Bruno Larry got 10 times the heat that Chris ever got during his whole career. This one might be slightly harder to argue since it was a lot closer, but ya i would say Larry was more "over" in WCW than Chris. He was actually getting more "pops" than a whole bunch of guys backstage. And in wrestling that's all that matters.
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Post by The Beast Disincarnate on Jan 1, 2012 12:27:33 GMT -5
Hey, i see that a few people dislike Edge, his multiple boring and ridiculously pointless title reigns and his crappy running hug of a spear as much as me, i thought I was the only one!
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TheDieselTrain
Fry's dog Seymour
Chicks Dig Hootie.
Is Stone Cold gonna have to smack a bitch?? WHAT!!!?????
Posts: 23,724
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Post by TheDieselTrain on Jan 1, 2012 15:28:11 GMT -5
I'm not sure if its been said but I'm gonna say it....colt cabana. Seriously I dont get it his appeal at all. Was he supposedly "funny" because he was jewish??? He's not funny (imo obviously) I remember laughing that his last match him getting utterly squashed with Umaga in about a minute. I definately wasnt up and cursing WWE when he got endeavored.
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Post by 2CSultan on Jan 1, 2012 16:34:28 GMT -5
Zack Ryder...I didn't get it when the IWC was calling for his big push and I sure don't get it now.
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Post by baronmordo on Jan 1, 2012 16:38:34 GMT -5
Bullshit, repoman. I know a lot about wrestling history; I've even been there for some of it. Larry Z was virtually never over unless he was in a group, and ANYBODY who fought the nWo was over. So, NO, Larry Z was not over. You're wrong.
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Jan 1, 2012 17:19:50 GMT -5
Bulls***, repoman. I know a lot about wrestling history; I've even been there for some of it. Larry Z was virtually never over unless he was in a group, and ANYBODY who fought the nWo was over. So, NO, Larry Z was not over. You're wrong. So that's why the crowd chanted his name at the beginning of every Nitro. You can hate the guy all you want, but to say he wasn't over is just turning a blind eye (and ear) to what actually happened.
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Post by repomanfan on Jan 1, 2012 17:33:28 GMT -5
Bulls***, repoman. I know a lot about wrestling history; I've even been there for some of it. Larry Z was virtually never over unless he was in a group, and ANYBODY who fought the nWo was over. So, NO, Larry Z was not over. You're wrong. How am I wrong please explain? So the Larry chants were all fake? What about the match where Jericho got Razors Edged by Hall and the crowd starts yelling "Larry" "Larry". They didn't even care about Chris anymore. S Since you're such a wrestling historian I would like to he hear from you why you think "Larry Z was virtually never over unless he was in a group"? And what group was that? The Dangerous Alliance? I can't seem to think of any other group he was in? It was he and Bruno who drew large houses all around the North East and had had one of the biggest feuds in wrestling history. I don't recall Larry being in any group at that time? "ANYBODY who fought the nWo was over". But for some reason an middle aged commentator still managed to get bigger "pops" than a good portion of the guys who fought against the NWO. People were yelling "Larry" "Larry" not everybody else's name who fought the NWO. Face the facts Larry was one the most "over" guys on the roster. The fans don't lie.
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