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Post by Alex Shelley on Jan 24, 2012 21:33:13 GMT -5
It's sexist.
I thought Lucky Cannon was delicious. I didn't shed a tear when he got fired because he f***ing sucked in the ring. The only time I remotely enjoyed him as a character was when he had that hilarious robe.
Women's wrestling in America, as a whole, is so f***ing sexist I literally can't enjoy it. You know what's sad as f***? Watching a local indy wrestler, a woman who is actually REALLY good, have to deal with all the cat-calling when she wrestles, have to deal with the fans who don't give a f*** about her wrestling at all, who respond more favorably when her opponents do "sexy" spots to when she actually does impressive moves, who yell perverted things when she does completely normal wrestling moves that happen to involve grabbing your opponent's butt. Even quality American women's wrestling I can't fully enjoy because I've seen the fans, I know how creepy they are, and I know that the company is pandering to those fans, just in a different way that makes them feel so superior to guys who watch the Divas.
Seriously, guys, how many wrestling promotions are there that are targeted toward women?
Maybe, just maybe, do you think that the reason that men are the primary watchers of wrestling is because wrestling has never bothered to TRY otherwise?
I think I went on a bit of a tangent here.
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Post by AztecaDragon on Jan 24, 2012 21:56:47 GMT -5
This is why I hate being wordy. That's really all that needs to be said...and there I went trying to be subtle. I reached that point a while ago. FUN FACT: A little over a decade ago, I was giving serious thought and saving money to go to a particular wrestling school. After some thought, I decided it'd be better off for my sanity not to. Care to guess what factored in a lot for my thoughts...? {Spoiler}No, really. Guess. You silly goose. It's just a business decision, right? "Sex sells."
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Post by norsisclouds on Jan 24, 2012 22:11:50 GMT -5
When I think of big name women wrestlers that I loved I think of four people: Chyna (who I know is horrible in the ring, but as a kid I couldn't tell) Lita, MisChif, and Bull Nakano. Female wrestlers that I usually mark for happen to be a different than the mainstream pigeon-holed appeal category--they have to have a whole character--not necessarily the perfect package persay, because women who have been identified as the "perfect package" I usually don't care for, for example, Trish Stratus or Mickie James--I can be honest and say I've never been a big fan. I wasn't a big fan when they debuted (though I warmed to and adored Mickie when she was a psycho) and I wasn't a huge fan when they went vanilla face. Honestly, there's probably nothing Trish could've done to win me over because I never connected with her character and I was always more interested in the people she was fighting, not her individually. I think I do give Lita in particular a pass a lot even when she isn't perfect, not because of looks but because I connect with her so much as a character. I love her presence, I love her individuality, her wrestling style, her daring bump taking. It's a minority opinion, but to me there will never be another female wrestler that comes close to making me feel the way I did when I watched her in the ring. I don't think they'll ever get another woman who had that same charismatic audience connection without having to say a word. Like Jeff, there was something to her that people were just drawn to--even when you go back and watch her indies matches when no one knew who she was. Her mic skills were nothing to write home about, but with the way the women's division has declined since she left she could come back and be better than most of their women. (Which is saying something because I remember how much people hated her talking before.) I'm not attracted to women so I don't have to worry about their sexuality infringing on my judgement of them as wrestlers, but I do tend to give a pass to women wrestlers that are great characters, like ODB in TNA--great example... But I do think a lot of fans do this--I've seen so many "Maryse is the greatest diva of all time!" posts, and I actually really like Maryse but there's no way that is true...or "Layla is the best I've seen in years." Everyone is entitled to their opinions of course. You know what--in thinking about this, I really think it's possible that BECAUSE Trish and Lita did such a great job feuding when I was a kid, I was not able to connect with Trish. I mean, I really didn't like her. It didn't matter if she turned face, I couldn't stand her--and I think that is a testament to how well they both did as characters, and it's probably why even today if you ask fans who they like, Trish or Lita they'll doggedly choose one and bury the other. That rivalry really carried over to the fanbase. The Divas are the same thing. They're trying to recreate the next Trish, Lita, Ivory, etc and it's not happening because they don't understand what made those original Divas so popular in the first place. Yes, they had big hooters, but they also had some degrees of talent, charisma, and a unique look so you could care about each individual one. Nowadays they are all variations of the same person, a person who I don't care to see. The only Diva I can name right now is Kelly Kelly because she stinks even by Diva standards. The WWE will keep doing this over and over until something happens that will force them to take women's wrestling seriously. Kharma could have been it, but we won't know for sure unless she comes back. This is really true and has been going on for a long time. Even in 2000 when they started hiring other female wrestlers that could go based on Lita's skyrocketing popularity, like Molly Holly, then eventually Gail Kim--it was obvious that they expected "Ok we have these really talented, athletic, highflying female wrestlers--these women will get over just like Lita did and sell a lot of merch!" And I love and respect Molly--she is without a doubt one of the best, but it didn't happen. She was liked, but never liked enough, never on the same level as Trish or Lita and there's something to that which the WWE does not understand. They don't get why they can't just replicate those two women and they've been trying to do it for a long time to make money off of them but they can't figure out what the "it" was that either of them had.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Jan 24, 2012 22:54:29 GMT -5
Seriously, guys, how many wrestling promotions are there that are targeted toward women? Japanese promotions Dragon Gate and DDT have a large number of female fans due to the pretty boy wrestlers like Kota Ibushi, BXB Hulk, and Kenny Omega.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Jan 24, 2012 22:59:25 GMT -5
It's not just a WWE thing. A number of wrestling promotions still follow the Attitude Era model. Think of it as this, Alabama is successful in the SEC mainly due to its defense. They never try to get an elite quarterback because their style doesn't require one. Each season, they stock up the defense and offense line but just toss a mediocre QB on the field. They could become even more dominant with a better QB but won't change the format because they get results by their proven method. You're talking about a stylistic choice in comparison to a physical result based on previous experience and current results. A football game is much different than a TV show. If Alabama is winning football games based on a decades old offensive plan, it's because it works. The WWE is a creative medium. The outcomes don't matter, it's how it's delivered. What worked in 2000 won't work now. It's like Poison. They sold umpteen million records in 1988 but couldn't draw a dime in 1992. Their style of music was over and done but they still were out there playing party music for crowds that wanted something more substantial. Lousy example but it's all I got. Motley Crue would had been more fitting, but I see your point. The main problem is no one wants to take a risk when the failure rate is much higher than 10 years ago. Plus there is still an audience buying what they are selling. In their minds, it's full steam ahead.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Jan 24, 2012 23:01:58 GMT -5
It's sexist. I thought Lucky Cannon was delicious. I didn't shed a tear when he got fired because he f***ing sucked in the ring. The only time I remotely enjoyed him as a character was when he had that hilarious robe. Women's wrestling in America, as a whole, is so f***ing sexist I literally can't enjoy it. You know what's sad as f***? Watching a local indy wrestler, a woman who is actually REALLY good, have to deal with all the cat-calling when she wrestles, have to deal with the fans who don't give a f*** about her wrestling at all, who respond more favorably when her opponents do "sexy" spots to when she actually does impressive moves, who yell perverted things when she does completely normal wrestling moves that happen to involve grabbing your opponent's butt. Even quality American women's wrestling I can't fully enjoy because I've seen the fans, I know how creepy they are, and I know that the company is pandering to those fans, just in a different way that makes them feel so superior to guys who watch the Divas. Seriously, guys, how many wrestling promotions are there that are targeted toward women? Maybe, just maybe, do you think that the reason that men are the primary watchers of wrestling is because wrestling has never bothered to TRY otherwise? I think I went on a bit of a tangent here. I did pop for that tangent. If you had time, you should talk to Madison in writing for the site. In regards to TNA, Madison Rayne for example is not a good in ring talent, but despite people saying, wow, she's so hot, she's a great talker. She reminds me of Sunny in the mid-90s, as this annoying and hated heel. Miss Tessmacher (I stopped while she was KO tag champ) was actually more improved then she should have ever been, especially given she came in a year after Kelly Kelly. I think she is the poster child for this type of attitude, as she does get defended oddly enough, and I think a lot of it has to do with looks. Like, for awhile, she was bumping and landing on her head and jarring her head. It didn't matter though, because she's only going to be in matches that are 2 minutes max. I really think Women's Wrestling hit its peak while in TNA when the KOs division started until the Hogan era began. It wasn't as sexist as professional wrestling can be, and I maybe looking at it with rose coloured glasses, but the only really bad things with them were the Sarah Palin gimmick. For the most part, all the women were different, they stood out from the pack. Taylor Wilde and Gail Kim were similar, so when Gail left, Taylor took her spot and may not have been able to take it where she could have. It was the midpoint between Shimmer with just straight up wrestling, and WWE with glamourizing and divas and such. People cared, and that's the thing with women's wrestling, it can draw, because humans can draw. It doesn't matter what gender you are, what race you are, how big you are, if you can draw money, you can draw money. Recent ratings draws on Smackdown have been 5'8", 200 pound Daniel Bryan and 6'4", 400 pound Mark Henry. Trish was a draw, but when she was the top girl, they were more about competition and people were able to emotionally connect with Trish and they were able to get behind her like they would any top male baby face. Same with Lita. The closest to get to her level was Mickie James, and one reason I enjoyed the Piggie James angle was they were trying to get people to emotionally invest in Mickie. Nowadays, girls don't get reactions. Kelly Kelly gets some sympathy, but that's because she's little and takes a beating. She's over like a jobber, a bad jobber. I was considering comparing her to Hornswoggle, but Hornswoggle is more over then her. I was considering comparing her to Barry Horowitz, but Horowitz got a bigger reaction in winning his matches then she does. Her sole purpose and only use is to get heels some heat. Eve can't act to save her life and people don't get behind her like a top baby face. Tamina could be a good baby face while just beating women and hitting the big splash and just kicking ass, I can see her getting over, but not due to her being a chick, but people getting behind her because she's a person.
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Post by Ultimo Chocula on Jan 25, 2012 2:49:32 GMT -5
You're talking about a stylistic choice in comparison to a physical result based on previous experience and current results. A football game is much different than a TV show. If Alabama is winning football games based on a decades old offensive plan, it's because it works. The WWE is a creative medium. The outcomes don't matter, it's how it's delivered. What worked in 2000 won't work now. It's like Poison. They sold umpteen million records in 1988 but couldn't draw a dime in 1992. Their style of music was over and done but they still were out there playing party music for crowds that wanted something more substantial. Lousy example but it's all I got. Motley Crue would had been more fitting, but I see your point. The main problem is no one wants to take a risk when the failure rate is much higher than 10 years ago. Plus there is still an audience buying what they are selling. In their minds, it's full steam ahead. Granted, yes, they are still selling out arenas, but I hardly think the Divas have anything to do with it. Its brand recognition and a select few main event guys who sell those shows out. If a Raw went by and not a single Diva was shown I don't think anyone would give two hoots. Compare that to 10 years ago and Trish doesn't get a second of screen time, people would notice. Would they have raised holy hell? Probably not, but they most certainly would have wondered where the hell she was.
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Jan 25, 2012 3:24:57 GMT -5
On the flipside, there seems to be a tendency on the interweb for smarks to generalize fans of female wrestlers with limited in-ring ability as slobbering horndogs who just want to see softcore porn. Which is as silly as insisting that anyone who prefers Ultimate Warrior over Dean Malenko must have a fetish for big muscles.
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Jan 25, 2012 3:34:03 GMT -5
How many people here really would watch a match between 2 talented ladies who overweight and plain looking? Well first of all, I don't think there would be too many women wrestlers who are overweight if their appearance weren't a factor in whether they got hired at all, since there isn't a high percentage of male wrestlers who are overweight in the indies (where appearance counts for an awful lot less than it does in the 'E and in TNA). Guys like Kevin Steen, Eddie Kingston, Crossbones, Tursas, and so on are the exception rather than the rule. Second of all, lots of people here would happily watch any match involving Kharma/Awesome Kong/Amazing Kong/Kia Stevens/any other name she might go by. She's a big girl, and I would rate her looks as average, but she's a good worker and to a lot of people that is all that matters.
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Post by FUNK_US/BRODUS on Jan 25, 2012 5:40:36 GMT -5
It's sexist. I thought Lucky Cannon was delicious. I didn't shed a tear when he got fired because he f***ing sucked in the ring. The only time I remotely enjoyed him as a character was when he had that hilarious robe. Women's wrestling in America, as a whole, is so f***ing sexist I literally can't enjoy it. You know what's sad as f***? Watching a local indy wrestler, a woman who is actually REALLY good, have to deal with all the cat-calling when she wrestles, have to deal with the fans who don't give a f*** about her wrestling at all, who respond more favorably when her opponents do "sexy" spots to when she actually does impressive moves, who yell perverted things when she does completely normal wrestling moves that happen to involve grabbing your opponent's butt. Even quality American women's wrestling I can't fully enjoy because I've seen the fans, I know how creepy they are, and I know that the company is pandering to those fans, just in a different way that makes them feel so superior to guys who watch the Divas. Seriously, guys, how many wrestling promotions are there that are targeted toward women? Maybe, just maybe, do you think that the reason that men are the primary watchers of wrestling is because wrestling has never bothered to TRY otherwise? I think I went on a bit of a tangent here. While I'm not even slightly as angry about it as you are, it's really hard to disagree with any part of this argument.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Jan 25, 2012 7:11:32 GMT -5
Actually there are a lot of women wrestlers who don't fit the Barbie doll mold out there who won't get recognition. How many people talk about Tina San Antonio, Mena Libra, Jennifer Cruz, and Alicia? Or Angel Orsini? Anybody still talk about Mickie Knuckles? They exist in a much larger number than most people can imagine. They do it because they love wrestling. And those guys you mentioned will run into the same problems as women over their appearance.
Kong was presented as a special attraction and she is attractive when not snarling.
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Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on Jan 25, 2012 9:29:09 GMT -5
Actually there are a lot of women wrestlers who don't fit the Barbie doll mold out there who won't get recognition. How many people talk about Tina San Antonio, Mena Libra, Jennifer Cruz, and Alicia? Or Angel Orsini? Anybody still talk about Mickie Knuckles? They exist in a much larger number than most people can imagine. They do it because they love wrestling. And those guys you mentioned will run into the same problems as women over their appearance. Well, not really being familiar with women's indy wrestling beyond what ROH and Chikara have shown me, I had to do Google image searches for most of those ladies. (I figured it'd be futile to find the right Alicia.) None of them are really fat or anything. Mickie Knuckles seems to be the heaviest, and I think she's still attractive. Angel Orsini isn't overweight at all from what I saw, and she's a lot better than just "plain-looking". Part of her appeal is similar to that of, say, Andre the Giant back in the day; she's much bigger than all of her opponents and it makes fans go "OMG, how is [name] gonna beat Kong?" As we all know, if you have a big man dominating just about everybody due to his size, and then another big man shows up and challenges him, things get interesting. Remember how people wanted to see Kharma vs. Beth Phoenix because Beth was the next biggest female wrestler in the 'E? I wouldn't mind seeing her take on not only Beth, but somebody who's the same size as her. (Who could actually wrestle well, of course.) As opposed to her being the lone exception to the diva mold.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Jan 25, 2012 10:31:44 GMT -5
Yeah, I noticed there was a thread about the Aksana skits on Smackdown being boring and the only defense people had were "Who cares? Aksana's hot!" That annoyed the hell out of me.
And then there's the fact that any thread about a female wrestler, any thread at all, will have someone going "This thread is useless without pics!" No. No it isn't. But still there comes a whole deluge of sexy pictures that often have NOTHING to do with the subject at hand. It pisses me off.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2012 14:14:58 GMT -5
And I love and respect Molly--she is without a doubt one of the best, but it didn't happen. She was liked, but never liked enough, never on the same level as Trish or Lita and there's something to that which the WWE does not understand. They don't get why they can't just replicate those two women and they've been trying to do it for a long time to make money off of them but they can't figure out what the "it" was that either of them had. You can say the same thing for male wrestling. Look at how many time WWE try to replicate Hogan, Rock, Austin, etc.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jan 26, 2012 13:43:37 GMT -5
I think we've got this backwards.
It's not 'she sucks in the ring, but she looks hot so I'll let her pass.'
It's more 'American women's wrestling is terrible, constantly, there is no point in watching it for anything other than the women's attractiveness. Therefore if the women on my screen will be terrible wrestlers, they may as well look hot while they wrestle terribly.'
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 28, 2012 1:26:16 GMT -5
It depends what the woman does. If she's merely a valet like Miss Elizabeth, then being beautiful is enough. If she's a wrestler, then no she cannot be given a pass because looks are not enough alone.
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Post by moneyman20 on Jan 28, 2012 1:59:36 GMT -5
It's sexist. I thought Lucky Cannon was delicious. I didn't shed a tear when he got fired because he f***ing sucked in the ring. The only time I remotely enjoyed him as a character was when he had that hilarious robe. Women's wrestling in America, as a whole, is so f***ing sexist I literally can't enjoy it. You know what's sad as f***? Watching a local indy wrestler, a woman who is actually REALLY good, have to deal with all the cat-calling when she wrestles, have to deal with the fans who don't give a f*** about her wrestling at all, who respond more favorably when her opponents do "sexy" spots to when she actually does impressive moves, who yell perverted things when she does completely normal wrestling moves that happen to involve grabbing your opponent's butt. Even quality American women's wrestling I can't fully enjoy because I've seen the fans, I know how creepy they are, and I know that the company is pandering to those fans, just in a different way that makes them feel so superior to guys who watch the Divas. Seriously, guys, how many wrestling promotions are there that are targeted toward women? Maybe, just maybe, do you think that the reason that men are the primary watchers of wrestling is because wrestling has never bothered to TRY otherwise? I think I went on a bit of a tangent here. Wow. I don't think myself or anyone else could have said it better. Especially the first part. I like Maryse and think she's hot as hell. But, when she was left WWE I wasn't saddened because she contributed nothing to the product for the last year or so of her tenure(Mostly creative's fault. She could have easily been a valet for someone they actually gave a damn about but whatever). The point is that we can't just keep giving anyone, men or women, a pass anymore because they're hot. That kind of attitude will keep the WWE from doing anything different with the Diva's division. As far as the fans of indy women's wrestling that you're talking about: There's a reason I've only been to ONE Shimmer show. I'll leave it at that.
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Post by Ultimo Chocula on Jan 28, 2012 3:31:53 GMT -5
Gee, Money Man, it couldn't be that indie fans are super creepy is it?
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Jan 28, 2012 13:46:36 GMT -5
As far as the fans of indy women's wrestling that you're talking about: There's a reason I've only been to ONE Shimmer show. I'll leave it at that. Probably about the same reason I considered making a taping my yearly "wrestling trip" after Fanfest ends this year, but quickly decided not to. I'd love to see the show, but the crowd often annoys me just watching a DVD. I can't imagine being in the midst of them where the "creepiness" factor would be more evident along with the annoying stuff.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
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Post by Reflecto on Jan 28, 2012 17:09:41 GMT -5
A big problem thaqt comes during the change of the "looks matter most" problem- in an attempt to get a lot of women who are incredibly attractive, they ended up with a lot of women who...well, look too similar for any of them to make a major dent. While most people would say, for example, a Trish Stratus had managed to be the peak of model-turned-wrestler, a major reason she could become a huge draw and a genuine star: She improved in the ring, but just as importantly: She was up against a roster of Lita/Molly/Gail/Victoria/Ivory/Jazz/Jacqueline/etc.- not just talented wrestlers who she could work well with, but a roster of women who LOOKED DIFFERENT FROM EACH OTHER. In that time period, you could look at all the women [at least on Raw], and you wouldn't be able to confuse any of their appearances for anyone else in the division. They all looked different, so they could all get their own niche market of fans...and since Trish was the one of that group who was the most classic of a beauty, she could also be billed as the fairest of them all and end up getting more of a build that way. Either you THOUGHT Trish was the most beautiful Diva in the division, or you could at least say "Well, I personally prefer [X], but I can see WWE's point- so I'll buy into this".
Now, compare it to this era- and EVERYONE has model looks first, wrestling ability second- so no one can really break out of the pack. Even the top draw in WWE, Kelly Kelly, has the problem: Talent or no talent, she's put front and center as the fairest one of all. Only problem: Compare Kelly to most of the girls, and you can't REALLY say, undisputably, Kelly is more attractive than any of the other Divas. As a result, all of the Divas just end up seeming more generic. making it far harder for any Diva to break out of the pack.
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