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Post by alliedbiscuit on Feb 26, 2012 12:31:27 GMT -5
The thing is, Cena vs. Rock is a specilaity match in the same vein as Rock vs. Hogan. There is no spot to take. It's being sold on the idea of the past vs. the present. If this was for one of the World Titles, maybe I would sympathise with the complainers more. A spot's taken because it's the main event, no matter what. Guys like CM Punk could bust their ass all year, and even go into Mania with the title, and they still won't be considered the main event. Plus it's being promoted over an entire year, taking up time for other guys to potentially get over. It doesn't make the rest of the roster look very important when the WWE's talking like Roce/Cena is the only match really worth watching. Ignoring the business aspect of it, anyone who's not John Cena and wants to move up within the company should at least be a little annoyed by all this. If Rock/Cena wasn't the main event then HHH/Taker HIAC would be. Guys can complain all they want but wrestling is all about making money. A guy like Punk is going in as champ, fighting Jericho, and will reap the rewards of all the hype around Rock/Cena. He really has nothing to complain about, and shouldn't, because someday he will be the one who is returning for a match with the younger generation.
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Post by Brother Nero....Wolfe on Feb 26, 2012 12:35:01 GMT -5
See, I don't get this. So the wrestlers go on and on about how they love the fans and Rock doesn't. That's fine, I can get that part, even if I disagree with it
But then they say he shouldn't be on Wrestlemania because they work hard. Isn't that kind of hypocritical? They blame The Rock for putting himself ahead of the fans, but then they basically go "Well we know the fans want you on Wrestlemania, but we work hard all year so we don't really care what the fans want, we should be there."
It just rubs me the wrong way. Cena hasn't touched on the "you are taking a spot" side which is great for him. But for all of those supposed wrestlers complaining about it...really? It just comes off as using the fans even worse than The Rock.
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,556
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Post by Cronant on Feb 26, 2012 12:36:19 GMT -5
Its not the same at all though. Jericho, presumably, is back, not just for Wrestlemania, he's working full time as long as he's there, and has done so to this point, and will do for however long he's there. He worked the Rumble, the Elimination Chamber, and most likely will do ER, Over the Limit, etc. So, because Jericho is back full time all of the guys that were working to reach that level/spot for all of that time that Jericho was gone should just be cool with him waltzing in and getting a big payday by working with the Champ in a featured match? Yes. Because he's not waltzing in if he's going full time. Did he not work the Rumble? Did he not participate in the Chamber? He's one of them now. They see him working the same schedule. Thats the basis of the whole deal. Thats what Punk and Orton were going on about, and considering they're the big locker room leaders, its not surprising others feel the same.
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by BigWill on Feb 26, 2012 12:40:19 GMT -5
A spot's taken because it's the main event, no matter what. Guys like CM Punk could bust their ass all year, and even go into Mania with the title, and they still won't be considered the main event. Plus it's being promoted over an entire year, taking up time for other guys to potentially get over. It doesn't make the rest of the roster look very important when the WWE's talking like Roce/Cena is the only match really worth watching. Ignoring the business aspect of it, anyone who's not John Cena and wants to move up within the company should at least be a little annoyed by all this. But you still have your two World title matches, and suprise suprise they don't feature anyone new minus Daniel Bryan. The value of the belts wont have fallen after WM is over. Whoever these complainers were, unless they Punk, Bryan, Y2J or Sheamus, they would have floundered in the lower leagues, Rock or not. And this way they get a fatter paycheck. You don't get a paycheck when you're not on the card, and you get less the lower on the card you go. Rock/Cena is the main event no matter what. This bumps off guys like Punk, Bryan, Y2j, and Sheamus from being able to main event, sending them to the middle of the card. This bumps down people who could have potentially been in the middle of the card down to the opening match and random filler matches. Then that bumps down other guys to dark matches or nothing at all. It's basically a domino effect that affects everyone. Also people talk about all the buys Rock's bringing in. Didn't you learn your lesson when the Survivor Series reports came in? So who's to say how much extra buys we'll see at Mania because of the Rock as apposed to if he weren't the main event or not on the card at all.
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,556
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Post by Cronant on Feb 26, 2012 12:43:57 GMT -5
That, and its possible to have a high buyrate without the Rock. Wrestlemania 23 had a higher buyrate than any Wrestlemania with Rock.
The thought that guys should just suck it up for a buyrate that hasn't happened yet is.... a bit weird.
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,619
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Post by BigWill on Feb 26, 2012 12:46:14 GMT -5
A spot's taken because it's the main event, no matter what. Guys like CM Punk could bust their ass all year, and even go into Mania with the title, and they still won't be considered the main event. Plus it's being promoted over an entire year, taking up time for other guys to potentially get over. It doesn't make the rest of the roster look very important when the WWE's talking like Roce/Cena is the only match really worth watching. Ignoring the business aspect of it, anyone who's not John Cena and wants to move up within the company should at least be a little annoyed by all this. If Rock/Cena wasn't the main event then HHH/Taker HIAC would be. Guys can complain all they want but wrestling is all about making money. A guy like Punk is going in as champ, fighting Jericho, and will reap the rewards of all the hype around Rock/Cena. He really has nothing to complain about, and shouldn't, because someday he will be the one who is returning for a match with the younger generation. How can you say that with certainty, especially considering they had the same match last year which wasn't the main event? And also like what's been said before, Punk isn't benefiting at all from this. Punk would receive a lot more money and attention on himself if he was in the main event than whatever extra attention the Rock is bringing being in the main event.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2012 12:46:26 GMT -5
So, because Jericho is back full time all of the guys that were working to reach that level/spot for all of that time that Jericho was gone should just be cool with him waltzing in and getting a big payday by working with the Champ in a featured match? Yes. Because he's not waltzing in if he's going full time. Did he not work the Rumble? Did he not participate in the Chamber? He's one of them now. They see him working the same schedule. Thats the basis of the whole deal. Thats what Punk and Orton were going on about, and considering they're the big locker room leaders, its not surprising others feel the same. I don't buy for a minute that they think that he's one of them because he's working TV/PPVs. The fact is that he was gone for over a year while these guys that are trying to break through were working to move up the card, and he comes back and is getting a featured match at Mania on name recognition alone, basically. It's really not all that different than the Rock situation. I will say that if someone had been booked strong enough to take the spot, maybe we wouldn't be having this debate, but that's for another thread. For the record, I doubt that Jericho makes it past June or so, as he has a huge tour with Fozzy coming up this summer.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
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Post by The Ichi on Feb 26, 2012 12:47:21 GMT -5
But you still have your two World title matches, and suprise suprise they don't feature anyone new minus Daniel Bryan. The value of the belts wont have fallen after WM is over. Whoever these complainers were, unless they Punk, Bryan, Y2J or Sheamus, they would have floundered in the lower leagues, Rock or not. And this way they get a fatter paycheck. You don't get a paycheck when you're not on the card, and you get less the lower on the card you go. Rock/Cena is the main event no matter what. This bumps off guys like Punk, Bryan, Y2j, and Sheamus from being able to main event, sending them to the middle of the card. This bumps down people who could have potentially been in the middle of the card down to the opening match and random filler matches. Then that bumps down other guys to dark matches or nothing at all. It's basically a domino effect that affects everyone. Also people talk about all the buys Rock's bringing in. Didn't you learn your lesson when the Survivor Series reports came in? So who's to say how much extra buys we'll see at Mania because of the Rock as apposed to if he weren't the main event or not on the card at all. There's a MITB match this year, and there's also a chance of a Team Long vs. Team Lariunaitus tag match. I'd say that opens up more spots than last years WM had. I'm assuming there will also be a pre-show battle royale like most WMs have. Basically, the people not getting some work to do will be guys so low on the ladder that they wouldn't have stood a chance anyway. And Survivor Series isn't in the same league as Wrestlemania.
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,556
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Post by Cronant on Feb 26, 2012 12:50:07 GMT -5
Yes. Because he's not waltzing in if he's going full time. Did he not work the Rumble? Did he not participate in the Chamber? He's one of them now. They see him working the same schedule. Thats the basis of the whole deal. Thats what Punk and Orton were going on about, and considering they're the big locker room leaders, its not surprising others feel the same. I don't buy for a minute that they think that he's one of them because he's working TV/PPVs. The fact is that he was gone for over a year while these guys that are trying to break through were working to move up the card, and he comes back and is getting a featured match at Mania on name recognition alone, basically. It's really not all that different than the Rock situation. I will say that if someone had been booked strong enough to take the spot, maybe we wouldn't be having this debate, but that's for another thread. For the record, I doubt that Jericho makes it past June or so, as he has a huge tour with Fozzy coming up this summer. You don't buy it, but I'd say the fact that nobody has come after Jericho like this says pretty much all it needs to. Jericho has even said his mindset when he comes back is that he's there 100 percent, else he isn't coming back. I think that does a lot as far how others take it.
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by BigWill on Feb 26, 2012 12:50:37 GMT -5
I still have yet to see any real proof that there's going to be a MITB match this year. It seems like people are clinging on to one random newz report saying that there may or may not be one, despite the fact that the WWE hasn't shown any indication that there will be.
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Post by Snaptastic on Feb 26, 2012 12:59:24 GMT -5
I still have yet to see any real proof that there's going to be a MITB match this year. It seems like people are clinging on to one random newz report saying that there may or may not be one, despite the fact that the WWE hasn't shown any indication that there will be. Wasn't the MiTB PPV pulled from the schedule this year? I think it has been, and thus all but guarantees a MiTB match at Mania.
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Post by Red Impact on Feb 26, 2012 13:02:04 GMT -5
Until we know the entire card, we don't know who is getting bumped off, if anyone. If we're going that route, and in arguing that we shouldn't take any predictions that a big spectacle match like this could bump the buyrate, we are, then we really should be waiting until closer to the event before we say that people are truly getting knocked off the card. For all we know, more wrestlers than normal could be featured.
And I think, even beyond all that, that these big matches are what makes Mania special over, say, TLC.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
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Post by The Ichi on Feb 26, 2012 13:02:05 GMT -5
I still have yet to see any real proof that there's going to be a MITB match this year. It seems like people are clinging on to one random newz report saying that there may or may not be one, despite the fact that the WWE hasn't shown any indication that there will be. Wasn't the MiTB PPV pulled from the schedule this year? I think it has been, and thus all but guarantees a MiTB match at Mania. ...Did not know that. That sucks. Oh well, multiple person tag team a-gogo.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Feb 26, 2012 13:12:34 GMT -5
Love how people are assuming that the Rock is going to a)deliver a huge buyrate when he didn't do much for Mania last year and did squat for SS and b) will raise others' checks just by being on the card when Vince himself hinted in his conference call that he's paying the Rock out the ass so there isn't much more to be passed around.
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ronin705
Dennis Stamp
All Might
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Post by ronin705 on Feb 26, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
The thing is, Cena vs. Rock is a specialty match in the same vein as Rock vs. Hogan. There is no spot to take. It's being sold on the idea of the past vs. the present. If this was for one of the World Titles, maybe I would sympathize with the complainers more. This. It's a one off match, it's practically a gimmick, it's something genuinely special for wrestling fans that may not happen again. No ones spot is taken in the upper card/lower card. They'll have the multi-man tag match this year and possibly the MITB so they have room for most of the roster. I could possibly understand that angle if they clearly weren't trying to find room for everyone but they are, whilst giving us one of the best Wrestlemania line-ups since Wrestlemania 19. The biggest stage in the wrestling business deserves the special one off matches. It's supposed to be the PPV you watch for the best of the best in gimmicks/matches/attractions. It's not "thank the guys who unfortunately aren't as popular as the megastars," which may be unfair but blame the creative team for that, not someone who's a proven megastar, financial draw and someone the majority people want to see back. ------------------ On topic though, I honestly feel the WWE are tyring to push Cena as the wrestlers representatives, and this is in full kayfabe. The Rock doesn't do bitchy shoot messages, he stays in kayfabe all the time. I agree with Cena being the locker room leader in this case, and that its all in kayfabe. Because The one time Rock seemed to "shoot" he WENT IN on Cena to the point, even the almighty Punk used it on Cena knowing he couldn't have said it any better.
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Post by wrestling4ever on Feb 26, 2012 13:15:31 GMT -5
Here is a quote from CM Punk back in January. "The Rock should not come back for anything less than the Main Event at WrestleMania" That, and its possible to have a high buyrate without the Rock. Wrestlemania 23 had a higher buyrate than any Wrestlemania with Rock. The thought that guys should just suck it up for a buyrate that hasn't happened yet is.... a bit weird. Yeah thanks to Donald Trump. But you still have your two World title matches, and suprise suprise they don't feature anyone new minus Daniel Bryan. The value of the belts wont have fallen after WM is over. Whoever these complainers were, unless they Punk, Bryan, Y2J or Sheamus, they would have floundered in the lower leagues, Rock or not. And this way they get a fatter paycheck. You don't get a paycheck when you're not on the card, and you get less the lower on the card you go. Rock/Cena is the main event no matter what. This bumps off guys like Punk, Bryan, Y2j, and Sheamus from being able to main event, sending them to the middle of the card. This bumps down people who could have potentially been in the middle of the card down to the opening match and random filler matches. Then that bumps down other guys to dark matches or nothing at all. It's basically a domino effect that affects everyone. Also people talk about all the buys Rock's bringing in. Didn't you learn your lesson when the Survivor Series reports came in? So who's to say how much extra buys we'll see at Mania because of the Rock as apposed to if he weren't the main event or not on the card at all. Survivor Series did fine. It was an increase from last year and the biggest selling PPV of the last quarter of 2011. I dont see whats so bad about that. Especially for a PPV that was once knocked off the lineup due to poor sales and horrible build up.
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Post by wrestling4ever on Feb 26, 2012 13:19:27 GMT -5
Love how people are assuming that the Rock is going to a)deliver a huge buyrate when he didn't do much for Mania last year and did squat for SS and b) will raise others' checks just by being on the card when Vince himself hinted in his conference call that he's paying the Rock out the ass so there isn't much more to be passed around. He did a lot for Mania. He was still big at that time. Fast forward a few months and his novelty has worn off. So, He didn't do as much for SS but it was still an increase and was the best selling PPV of the last quarter of 2011. Again, for a PPV that was once knocked off the lineup and had horrible build up last year, it is not that bad. I dont see how any of that is bad. Also, where did Vince say he was "paying Rock out the ass." Because all I remember was that he said Rock was getting paid but was working off a handshake deal. I dont recall Vince saying Yeah Im paying Rock big bucks to come work !!1!. I dont think that is the case at all.
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Arrow
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,122
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Post by Arrow on Feb 26, 2012 13:19:31 GMT -5
The thing is, Cena vs. Rock is a specilaity match in the same vein as Rock vs. Hogan. There is no spot to take. It's being sold on the idea of the past vs. the present. If this was for one of the World Titles, maybe I would sympathise with the complainers more. A spot's taken because it's the main event, no matter what. Guys like CM Punk could bust their ass all year, and even go into Mania with the title, and they still won't be considered the main event. Plus it's being promoted over an entire year, taking up time for other guys to potentially get over. It doesn't make the rest of the roster look very important when the WWE's talking like Roce/Cena is the only match really worth watching. Ignoring the business aspect of it, anyone who's not John Cena and wants to move up within the company should at least be a little annoyed by all this. Someone still has to explain to me how this is all The Rock's fault, and why we should be getting mad at him because WWE didn't bother to get someone lower on the card over. Guys are blaming The Rock for a decision that management made, which is to have put him in the main event of the show. If there was any real evidence that Rock forced his way in against Vince McMahon's wishes, then I'd see the point, but there isn't. And it just comes off as unnecessarily bitter and petty to trash The Rock for a decision that he didn't make. I'm sure Rock was all too happy to be in the main event of the show, in his hometown, but the fact is that unless Vince wanted it to happen, it wouldn't. And Rock vs. Cena was always going to be heavily promoted. They'd be idiots not to promote it. It's still one of the biggest, and freshest, matches in the last decade. Thing is, even with all the heavy advertising for this match, I've seen more new talent get pushed than I have when Rock wasn't around. It never took away from the pushes that guys like R-Truth, Zack Ryder, Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, or Cody Rhodes got. So I don't see how they've pushed the match at the expense of everyone else when plenty of people were elevated anyway.
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,619
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Post by BigWill on Feb 26, 2012 13:19:45 GMT -5
No, I'm definitely not saying Survivor Series was bad. I actually was glad to see the reports when they first came out. It was a solid show all around, and the buyrates were higher because of it. The point I'm getting at is people seem to create these unrealistic expectations on Rocks drawing ability. They expect Rock to singlehandedly boost ratings and buyrates through the roof, when in reality it doesn't work that way.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Feb 26, 2012 13:24:57 GMT -5
I have to agree with him. I understand why some people would be pissed that Rocky is main eventing WM when he is not even working 1/5 as many shows as everyone else but at the end of the day, he is a proven draw. This match with Cena is going to draw big money and that's what WWE cares about in the end. If this Rock/Cena feud improves business, then it's good for everyone because they will get more money.
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